My Norris vote as of right now

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My Norris vote as of right now

Postby NIN on Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:38 am

Norris (best defenseman)

Lidstrom. Among defensemen he is 3rd in the league in scoring, 2nd in shots on goal, 1st in icetime (nearly 29 minutes/game), a +4, and only 30 PIM. Nobody walks the line like Lidstrom. He is brilliant defensively, quick with the stick. His passing is superb, always on the tape and in stride.

Runners up: McCabe and Redden
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Postby Reilly on Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:55 am

McCabe is no Norris defenseman.
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:05 am

Reilly wrote:McCabe is no Norris defenseman.


I know I made him a runner up Reilly, read the freakin' post! :evil:






SIKE :lol: Seriously though only Lidstrom has logged more ice and he is a plsu player. Combine that with those stellar O numbers and he is worthy of recognition. After seeing him play a few games I think he is worse then his stats and he isnt even in the same league defenseively as most elite defenseman. Having said that I like those 13 goals and he has been so domiant on the power play. Thats why hes in my top 3.
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Postby wondermoose on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:08 am

Sergei Gonchar.
























Oh come on, someone was going to say it!
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:17 am

wondermoose wrote:Sergei Gonchar.
!


Now its Penguin related!

Did you know that out of 278 defensemen Gonchar is ranked 13th in PIM?

He is 31st in scoring among D-man.

Gonchar has 2 more points than Melichar at even strength. Sure hes getting better, HOW COULDNT HE!
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WTF?

Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:24 am

How do you give this award to anybody other than Lyle Odelein? Are you guys all on crack?
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Postby Pitts on Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:51 am

I say Sergei as well!!!! How else would we be able to get that #1 draft pick??? :P
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Re: WTF?

Postby the wicked child on Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:50 am

HomerPenguin wrote:How do you give this award to anybody other than Lyle Odelein? Are you guys all on crack?


Monkey Boy is clearly the class of Dmen.
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Postby bse on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:21 pm

Reilly wrote:McCabe is no Norris defenseman.


Norris Trophy is given yearly and it's given to the best defenseman of the season. It doesn't matter what one has done in the past or what he will do in the future. If we look at the numbers, McCabe could very well win it. I don't understand how you can say "McCabe is no norris defenseman" since he's currently leading all defenseman in points per game. He's trailing only one point for the league lead and Vishnovsky has played 9 more games. He has more points than Lidström, Zubov, Niedermayer, Blake, Pronger, whatever... Furthermore, he's logging over 28 minutes a game and has been very important for the Maple Leafs. He also has 15 goals, more than any other defenseman except Mathieu Schneider. Redden or Lidström have atleast as big chance of winning it, but make no mistake that Bryan McCabe is having an excellent season.
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Postby pfim on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:24 pm

McCabe is having a good offensive half-season, but defensively he isn't in the class of a Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom etc.
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Postby bse on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:37 pm

pfim wrote:McCabe is having a good offensive half-season, but defensively he isn't in the class of a Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom etc.


Defensively he is having just as good season as Lidström or Pronger. Redden and Chara, as they are playing for the Senators, have better +/- than pretty much anyone.
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Postby pfim on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:45 pm

bse wrote:
pfim wrote:McCabe is having a good offensive half-season, but defensively he isn't in the class of a Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom etc.


Defensively he is having just as good season as Lidström or Pronger. Redden and Chara, as they are playing for the Senators, have better +/- than pretty much anyone.


So why not Lubomir Visnovsky? If +/- was the best way to measure a defenseman defensively, Michal Roszival would be considered a great defensive defenseman. If you're saying that McCabe is better defensively than Lidstrom or Pronger, I disagree completely, this season, last season, whenever.
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Postby Scott on Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:16 pm

The big Z will win it this year...as in
Zdeno Chara!
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Postby Hockeynut! on Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:19 pm

McCabe's play has trailed off dramatically over the past month. I'd be surprised if he finished in the top 3 defensement in scoring.
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Postby bse on Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:37 pm

pfim wrote:
bse wrote:
pfim wrote:McCabe is having a good offensive half-season, but defensively he isn't in the class of a Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom etc.


Defensively he is having just as good season as Lidström or Pronger. Redden and Chara, as they are playing for the Senators, have better +/- than pretty much anyone.


So why not Lubomir Visnovsky? If +/- was the best way to measure a defenseman defensively, Michal Roszival would be considered a great defensive defenseman. If you're saying that McCabe is better defensively than Lidstrom or Pronger, I disagree completely, this season, last season, whenever.


You are missing a lot of things pfim. We aren't choosing best defensive defenseman as far as talent goes. We aren't choosing best offensive defenseman, in pure skill, talent, either. When Norris Trophy winner is voted, it is purely based on one season. It doesn't matter if Rob Blake has all the skill in the world at all ends, if he isn't having a great season, he won't win the award. Period.

Heck, Rozsival is likely a very bad defenseman, yet he's having a great season. Scott Hannan is a very good defensive defenseman, and he's having a terrible season. See the difference? If they were against each other, based on this season Rozy would win hands down.

At the moment, Bryan McCabe is having an excellent season. I'm not saying he will win it or even finish top-5, but he's having a great season. I could care less if he has zero talent, hockey sense or speed, it doesn't matter, since he's having a good season and that award is based on player's play during this season.
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Postby pfim on Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:36 pm

BSE-I just don't understand what you're basing his good defensive play on. +/-? That same Scott Hannan who is having a terrible season is only a -4, while McCabe is only a +3. +/- is more of a team stat, a number to be compared amongst teammates, not amongst opponents for the most part. Jagr is a +18, but I don't think that's proof of him having a good "defensive" season, more a factor of his offensive capability and the talent of the other 4 players on the ice at the same time as him.

I don't think they've come up with a stat (at least a well-known one) to properly measure an individual's impact defensively. It's something that is measured subjectively, and McCabe is not playing an upper echelon defensive game.
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Postby jmh70 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:26 pm

The Norris is Chara's to lose, though Lidstrom is certainly a candidate.
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Postby bse on Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:52 pm

My bet is Redden.

Speaking of defensive awareness, it is very often overlooked. For example, Brian Leetch is hardly any better defensively than McCabe. Leetch won in 1997. Last defensive defenceman to win it, was Rod Langway. Since the days of Coffey though, the amount of 2-way defensemen has increased.

Anyway, as it's a vote, the +/- and other stats matter. I don't think subjective stuff matters a whole lot or can you point a defenseman who hasn't had good stats (offensive output) lately? as pfim said, it is hard to measure defensive play - and that's exactly why it doesn't matter that much when it comes to voting. Stats matter and based on history, voters prefer offensive output. Hard to make a point for something that isn't measureable (defensive play), besides +/-.

Redden has excellent +/- and I'm sure that's going to give him a few more votes. Lidström is tough to beat though, but so are Chara and Niedermayer.
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