Madden is full of it

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Madden is full of it

Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:19 pm

he's on the air saying patrick must go, and he's the fault for those FA signings. Why werent you saying that last summer, double M? You yourself endorsed those moves. How is it CP's fault Palffy quit? and who knows about the Gonch.

Oh and CP has his kids in the box during the games. Like thats a big deal.

The days of GM's getting fleeced by one another in trades are over. There are no more surprise deals to make. If you want quality, you have to give up quality. This team didnt have money last summer to go after the top tier FA's, well maybe they did, but failed regardless. Hows that CP's fault?

Why are the Buffalo Sabres doing so well? because they havent had a revolving door on their coaches and GM''s offices, thats why. And they went through some really rough stretches.

Firing Edzo was pretty much unnecessary, and just a knee jerk to placate the whiney fan base that sits in the igloo seating section.

Change the on ice personnnel, and keep changing it until the right combination results, not coaches, not GM's. its as simple as that.
diasgree? well then youre full of you know what :)
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Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:23 pm

The GM has failed for 10 years to draft and develop plays. That is reason enough to can him. The GM constantly fires coaches, thus ruining the continuity you crave. That is reason enough to fire him.

Madden is 100 percent right.
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Postby Scott on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:25 pm

I agree with you on everything you said except for the coaching part. I don't think MT is the right coach. Some may say he needs more time and or talent, but when you lose 17 out of 18 games in this stretch...to some really average teams...this isnt just a lack of talent.
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Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:26 pm

well, you disagree, which means youre full of it.

Armstrong
Ouellett
Orpik
Whitney
Talbot
there are others, and more are coming. dixon and filewich for example.

nah, there drafting and developing is fine.
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Postby Scott on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:27 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:The GM has failed for 10 years to draft and develop plays. That is reason enough to can him. The GM constantly fires coaches, thus ruining the continuity you crave. That is reason enough to fire him.

Madden is 100 percent right.

WRONG..

CP for the most part has been nothing but a puppet for Mario. Firings, this years FA signings were all done just for 66 to make a cup run.

Sorry, but when CP had the money to spend, he did it right and we won. He has drafted some amazing talent as well.

CP should stay if you know what is good for the Pens. !!!
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Postby saba on Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:41 pm

Its time for CP to go. Lets give Tamballini a try or lure Sutter from Red Deer give him both titles. This orginization needs some fresh ideas
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Postby Tocchet on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:03 pm

well, you disagree, which means youre full of it.

Armstrong
Ouellett
Orpik
Whitney
Talbot
there are others, and more are coming. dixon and filewich for example.

nah, there drafting and developing is fine.

LGP Nation -- meet your next clueless poster.....randy!! ;)

Seriously, you're pointing to that group of average NHLers as evidence that CP's doing a bang-up job and should be retained for year 18????? CP should have gone about 5 years ago, and he most definitely should be canned after this year.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:20 pm

At this point, there is little justification for keeping Patrick around. Someone has to be accountable for this mess.

Malone and the amatuer scouting staff is fine as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby wallflower on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:34 pm

I kind of love the whenever someone throws out the idea of Mario as "The Puppetmaster" in defense of Craig Patrick. Just because I get the most humorous mental picture of Mario with a little wooden CP puppet and CP singing that song from Pinoccio.


You may now continue on with your intelligent Penguins discussion. :)
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Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:35 pm

PensInAz wrote:
MrKnowNothing wrote:Malone and the amatuer scouting staff is fine as far as I'm concerned.


Artie is a scout now, isn't he? I thought that he was, just can't remember for sure.


yeah, he hangs out in bars checking out how good of drinkers players are :lol: .

Seriously, yes, he is a scout in the northest.
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Postby BacklashJack on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:36 pm

I think CP should go, just because you need a different approach. That said, Madden has no problem saying one thing one day and the opposite the next.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:37 pm

He is a pro scout. Ususally there are scouts for other teams and then there are scouts for amateur players. Although sometimes they overlap, ie if a guy is in New England maybe he watches the Bruins sometimes and BU or BC other times, etc.

Although, typically I am pretty sure that there is a scouting staff that is basically strictly for the draft.
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Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:38 pm

Randy's list of our future saviors gave me a flashback....

This is a little off topic, but does anyone know where Craig Hillier is now? Or what make of cars he's selling?
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Postby Zscout on Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:44 pm

Madden said I was stupid when I criticized the Pens for making the moves in the off season. He was touting them as brilliant and had the team skating with the Cup.
It is funny how these semi-media types, like Madden, always shift with the wind.

Should Patrick be fired?
I thought so, two years ago. He was not the right GM to rebuid a team with. He traded away a lot of good talent, and got nothing in return. This year he was a victim of appeasing Mario to try to short cut the rebuild process. In doing so, he likely set the team back another couple of seasons.
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Postby Shinoix on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:03 pm

People, the last GOOD player that we developed was Jagr...aside from that, can someone please name a very good player that we've devloped? Keep in mind that we've been near the bottom since around 98...so that's 6 years of decent picks in drafts.

We haven't had anyone come up through the organization and have an impact on the league. Fleury? Crosby? Whopdi doo, they're number one picks! That's not hard!

Where have we developed a player? Koltsov? Dome? Kraft? Morozov? Bergkvist? Chris Wells? Aubin? Hillier?

The one player I'll give them is Malone..he's coming around now, and proved last year that he's a decent player...ONE!!

Here's 4 other players that the Pens have drafted since 91 that have had an impact on the NHL....Naslund, Straka, Ference, and Richard Park....guess what they all have in common? They're no longer Pens!!

Naslund was dealt for the stupidest reason, Straka was let go and is having a great season, Park is a regular player on the Canucks, and played well with the Wild too, and Ference is a regular player on the Flames.

Want to know what else they all have in common? They're all playing a regular shift for TOP TEAMS!

....still think we know how to develop and draft players? Give me a break!
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Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:33 pm

youre hardly one to judge, Tocchet. Armstrong and Ouellet are going to be top notch forwards, 2 whom youve quite often said would never get out of the AHL-WRONG

Ive noticed how none of you touched on the Buffalo reference.

Change for the sake of change gets you no-where. You'd think you wouldve learned that from the coaching change that happened here. It wasnt really necessary.

Craig Hillier is a bad example too, every team has blown top picks.
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Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:41 pm

Youre full of crap too shinoix. when this team was winning in the 90's there was no emphasis or need placed on drafting. The team was winning. who knew Jagr would go nuts. They didnt even have a farm system, just dumped some players in cleveland. Then there were all the marino/baldwin bankruptcy issues. I think it was in the 96/97 season when they didnt have any money to put the team in a hotel in montreal for chrissakes.

Dome was given every chance, so was Morozov and Kraft. They didnt pan out. it happens. Bergqvist had health issues. We couldnt afford Straka, and hes injury prone anyway.

ALOT of problems here are from simple economics over the past 15 years, and just plain bad luck.

Alot of those years this team was in sh!tty draft position too. We're not talking about top selections here.
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Postby Tocchet on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:46 pm

No one has commented on the Sabres "comparison" because it's an over-simplistic view to take. There are many, many, many other variables beyond "oh they kept the same coach and GM for 9 years."

Re: Army and Ouellet, I don't know what you're talking about. Go back and read my thoughts about Ouellet last year when I watched him a couple times with WBS, and I bet you'll be saying the same exact things (very smart player, simply knows where to be, creates room for himself, but very slow). And I've never questioned whether Army could make it in the NHL -- my primary critique was that he needs to bulk up, which he does. Go back to my preseason lines and thoughts on who should be on the squad, and you'll see Army on my third line.

Now go get your shine box.
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Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:49 pm

"Here's 4 other players that the Pens have drafted since 91 that have had an impact on the NHL....Naslund, Straka, Ference, and Richard Park....guess what they all have in common? They're no longer Pens!!

Naslund was dealt for the stupidest reason, Straka was let go and is having a great season, Park is a regular player on the Canucks, and played well with the Wild too, and Ference is a regular player on the Flames.

Want to know what else they all have in common? They're all playing a regular shift for TOP TEAMS! "


After what Randy Cunneyworth did to Naslund here, any other team wouldve moved him too. At the time the team needed toughness, and not another wuss forward. As I said before, straka was economics, Richard park? who cares. Ference is too small for an atlantic division defenseman.
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Postby randy on Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:55 pm

Tocchett- im going to start calling you browneyes.
You never, ever believed in Armstrong and you know it, so quit LYING and admit it.

Hockey pundits everywhere are crediting the sabres for sticking to their management/coaching guns.
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Postby Tocchet on Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:10 pm

Tocchett- im going to start calling you browneyes.
You never, ever believed in Armstrong and you know it, so quit LYING and admit it.

I thought I told you to go look at my direct quotes re: Armstrong pre-season? Did you not do your homework yet?

Seriously, go get your shinebox.
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Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:20 am

It's already been made clear that the forwards we have drafted and developed are going to be superstars. Statements based on statistics and facts, such as "Armstrong and Ouellet are going to be top notch forwards" cannot be argued with.

To help the cause, I'd like to post the D-men that CP has managed to draft that are still in the NHL...

Heward, Moran, Roszival, Melichar, Ference, Scuderi, Orpik, Whitney

Give me any 6 of those with Craig Hillier in goal, and it's cup time baby.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:35 am

Shinoix wrote:People, the last GOOD player that we developed was Jagr...aside from that, can someone please name a very good player that we've devloped? Keep in mind that we've been near the bottom since around 98...so that's 6 years of decent picks in drafts.

We haven't had anyone come up through the organization and have an impact on the league. Fleury? Crosby? Whopdi doo, they're number one picks! That's not hard!

Where have we developed a player? Koltsov? Dome? Kraft? Morozov? Bergkvist? Chris Wells? Aubin? Hillier?

The one player I'll give them is Malone..he's coming around now, and proved last year that he's a decent player...ONE!!

Here's 4 other players that the Pens have drafted since 91 that have had an impact on the NHL....Naslund, Straka, Ference, and Richard Park....guess what they all have in common? They're no longer Pens!!

Naslund was dealt for the stupidest reason, Straka was let go and is having a great season, Park is a regular player on the Canucks, and played well with the Wild too, and Ference is a regular player on the Flames.

Want to know what else they all have in common? They're all playing a regular shift for TOP TEAMS!

....still think we know how to develop and draft players? Give me a break!


A couple things:

1. Drafting and developing are different things, for all intensive purposes. While busts can be blamed on both, some things are out of the drafters hands.

2. Look at the drafts from 99 on. For the most part, the drafting group seems to be doing a good job. I believe there have been four changes in the amateur scouting staff since 99, two one year and two the other.

I'll grant that pretty much the entire 90s were a gigantic mess, but the drafts lately are fine by me. The Penguins seem to be showing a good penchant for getting some unknowns from the Minnesota region.
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Postby Jesse on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:58 am

While I agree that someone needs to be held accountable for the recent play of this team and the disasterous effects of the attempt at icing a formidable team...


there weren't many of you who were complaining in the offseason...
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Postby NIN on Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:22 am

Jesse wrote:While I agree that someone needs to be held accountable for the recent play of this team and the disasterous effects of the attempt at icing a formidable team...


there weren't many of you who were complaining in the offseason...


Signing Thibault (or Joseph or Burke for that matter) was a terrible move. Other than that every move looked like it would improve the team. Tugnutt was the guy for the job. Willing to accept a minor league deal and league minimum.

The most important player they needed was a #1 blueliner. Someone who could be counted on to hog 25-30 minutes and work alot of special teams. Aucoin was tops on my list but Chicago snatched him up for 4 million and he turned out to be a bust for them, so far. Gonchar went to the Pens, he is still one of the best in the league in the offensive zone, if not the best. Gonchar has been a bust too. Neidermayer got even more than Gonchar and just watching him skate is worth every penny. He hasnt produced either however.

Roy was better than Domi and still is. I don't want that over paid cheapshot artist anywhere near the Penguins. Roy is a better player and will trun out to be a decent FA.

Palffy was way over hyped but he actually produced despite his liabilities. I really wanted to see kovy come back.

By the time they got around to siging LeClair there wasnt much left to chose from and they already burned bridges by turning their nose at Kariya, etc.. CP was really holding out for Malkin but to no avail.

Poapst and Odelin were filler and alot of other contract moves were not well thought out.

Bottom line is that when signing FAs your restricted by time, compitition, and who is a FA. CP did considerably well in hindsight but the players havent done enough. Gonchar expecially. They need to think things through better in the future and really contemplate all the "what if" scenerios so that they can move to plan C and D seemlessly. Right now things seem chaotic in the franchise and the last word I would use to describe the Pens is structured. Its almost as if they dont know what kind of hokcey players they need to succeed. They just go with what is there and throw it in a pot and see what cooks.
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