Madden is full of it

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Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:45 am

ziggystardust wrote:

I'll agree that Mario is the biggest reason the team is in such a funk, but i refuse to forgive Patrick.


btw, remember when Madden said Mario forced Patrick to make some of the signings? Is Madden still talking about this, or does he refuse to speak ill of his God?


MM has done a complete 180 and vehemently denies ever having said that Mario was behind some of the personal choices.

Get real MM. It's funny how the entire sporting world looks to Dan Snyder and Al Davis as examples of owners who medle with their respective teams.

As much as I revere Mario as a player in his prime, as much as I admire and respect the wonderful things he's done for Pittsburgh, as much as I adore him for adopting the 'Burgh as his home, There is no denying that Mario has been the catalyst behind decisions regarding personal over the past 5-6 years that have handcuffed CP and have been a detriment to the franchise.

I'll always be thankful to Mario, but I'm pleased he's given up his role as a player, and I'll be even happier if and when he turns the reigns back over to CP as a GM.

I for one, believe that CP's best years came when he had complete control of all personnel decisions regarding the makeup of the Pens roster. Let's go back to that situation and see what happens before we crucify CP.

In business I'm fond of saying "The perfect recipe for failure is accountability without authority" Unfortunately that situation is EXACTLY what is happening with the GM position on the Pens right now.

(Edit addition) I've been waiting to say this until after Mario hung up the skates. I didn't want to slam him while he was still playing out of respect.

Does anyone else realize that Marios been 'double dipping' over the past few seasons? He's made money as an owner (more power to him) yet at the same time, he's been one of the highest paid players in the game over the last few seasons. HEAR ME OUT.

If you take Marios pay PER GAME, I'm not sure there are too many players in the league who have made more PER GAME PLAYED.

If you factor PRODUCTION into that calculation (Points, G's, A's), I think that you just might find that mario has been the single most expensive player in the NHL over the past three seasons.

Was that something this franchise could afford?

As I stated earlier, I wear my 66 sweater with great pride, I often cite Mario's postive contributions to the kids I coach. I'll argue with anyone about Mario's stature as one of the 3-4 Greatest ALL-TIME figures in the game of hockey. But I'm glad he's retired and off the payroll as a player.
Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BacklashJack on Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:28 am

ziggystardust wrote: Is anything worse than a bad journalist with an agenda?


You've just insulted bad journalists everywhere :o
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Postby NIN on Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:03 pm

ziggystardust wrote:Gonchar has NEVER been a true number one defenseman... actually calling Gonchar a "defenseman" is an insult to the NHL'ers who actually try in their own end. The signing was just as horrific at the time as it looks in retrospect. The very moment I heard the news my jaw dropped, and a little piece of me died inside. That signing was a terrible portent of things to come...



It was between Aucoin, neidermayer, and Gonchar. Of the 3 Neidermeyer is the best but 6.5 million for a defensemen? That and I dont think trying to court Domi (the guy who almost killed Neidermeyer with an intent to kill elbow) at the time helped lure him here. Aucoin is second and like I said tops on my list but Chi-town snatched him up. SO Gonchar it was.

It is his failure to adjust to the rules that has made him a liability, when he is at the top of his game he is worth the money. The big question is: Will Gonchar be able to adapt to the rules for next season? Will he learn to excell under them? Or will he continue to ski down Mt. Suckmore until he turns 36 and we are rid of him.
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Say wha?

Postby HomerPenguin on Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:27 pm

[quote]I'd also argue that Mario isn't a top ten forward of all time, but this is also another debate that need not be started now. [/quote]

OK, don't start the debate, but I'd love to hear the ten players who keep Lemieux off a list of the top 10 FORWARDS (not even PLAYERS, FORWARDS) of all time. I know you've got something of an agenda but this statement seems over the top even taking that into account.
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patrick sucks

Postby supermario on Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:32 pm

cp must go. he should not be permitted to make personell moves for this team any longer. he can no longer properly assess talent at the NHL level, and that was the one thing that he was ever good at. He is a wimp for a gm, he is a stubborn jerk. Time for some fresh ideas for this organization.
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Postby netwolf on Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:22 pm

ziggystardust wrote:I've got a bias towards two-way players. Their style is more conducive to winning, IMO

in no order, ten players better than mario from my view point

Francis, Hawerchuk, Howe, Larionov, Messier, Trottier, Kurri, Gainey, Makarov, Gretzky


Wow... I don't even know how to reply to that. At least you prefaced it by saying you are biased towards two way players....

ziggystardust wrote:
Jesse wrote:While I agree that someone needs to be held accountable for the recent play of this team and the disasterous effects of the attempt at icing a formidable team...

there weren't many of you who were complaining in the offseason...


ahem

You don't count. You complain about everything, all the time. Except Josef melichar. :wink:
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Postby netwolf on Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:24 pm

ziggystardust wrote:The Soviet hockey people called Bob Gainey the best player in NHL history... I think they know a thing or two about winning hockey.


I'd be curious to see when and in what context they said that. Was Lemieux more than 10 years old at the time? :)
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Postby Daniel on Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:35 pm

netwolf wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:The Soviet hockey people called Bob Gainey the best player in NHL history... I think they know a thing or two about winning hockey.


I'd be curious to see when and in what context they said that. Was Lemieux more than 10 years old at the time? :)


I would be curious to know who paid the Soviets to give that information. We all know how the Soviets can sway there opinions based on vodka. 8)
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Re: Say wha?

Postby HomerPenguin on Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:36 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:
I'd also argue that Mario isn't a top ten forward of all time, but this is also another debate that need not be started now.


OK, don't start the debate, but I'd love to hear the ten players who keep Lemieux off a list of the top 10 FORWARDS (not even PLAYERS, FORWARDS) of all time. I know you've got something of an agenda but this statement seems over the top even taking that into account.


I've got a bias towards two-way players. Their style is more conducive to winning, IMO

in no order, ten players better than mario from my view point

Francis
Hawerchuk
Howe
Larionov
Messier
Trottier
Kurri
Gainey
Makarov
Gretzky


Obviously, a bias towards two way players but the soviets dominated with them and those Habs teams always had them - heck, the soviet hockey people call Bob Gainey the greatest player in the history of the NHL.



Quick question - who was the last goal scoring leader to win the cup?
who was the last leading point scorer to win the cup?



sure, we can open up the debate but I'm positive my views won't be tolerated with people who grew with this team in this area with the all offense all the time even if it comes at the expense of defense hockey mindset


You've got a bias toward 2-way players but Dale Hawerchuk makes your list (Gretzky too for that matter, but he'd be on anybody's list)? Two players who didn't get out of the Soviet Union until too late in their careers for a comparison to be made make your list? Wayne Gretzky's caddy makes your list? Sorry, but I think this is just another way to sledgehammer away at your biases.

Oh, and the last leading scorer to win the cup was Martin St. Louis in, um, 2003-2004. His team played in the finals against the team with the league goal-scoring leader.

Quick question - who was the last Selke winner to win the cup?
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Re: Say wha?

Postby HomerPenguin on Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:31 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Two soviet players who dominated play over there then came over to the NHL years past their prime. Maybe its hard to compare them to NHL'ers, but the Soviet hockey system was extremely strong. Dominating the league has to count for something.

Wayne's caddy? Is that what you call Kurri? Wow. For a caddy he certainly racked up a lot of points. For a caddy he certainly played pretty damn good defensively.


I have NO idea why i said point scorer. I should have just kept with goal scorer, but I got carried away. hehe. I blame it on fatigue.


So you admit that it's almost impossible to compare those Soviet players to NHLers, but that doesn't stop you from doing it because it gives you a chance to slag Lemieux. That's pretty much my point.

Yeah, Jari Kurri was a very good player. Jari Kurri also had I believe one good NHL season without playing on Wayne Gretzky's wing. Being Wayne's caddy doesn't make him a bad player. It does suggest that your list is more about "I hate Lemieux" than about "top ten forwards."

I'm honestly baffled as to what your point means when you can make it about the league's leading goal scorer but it falls apart when you try to make it about the league's leading point getter.
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Re: Say wha?

Postby HomerPenguin on Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:48 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
there is no point in debating this. I don't hate mario, but almost all of this city has worships him like a god.

He wasn't a complete player. Kurri was. Kurri was downright amazing defensively.


Kurri was a complete player who benefited ENORMOUSLY from tagging along with the most prolific player in NHL history. If he hadn't played so many years on Wayne Gretzky's wing, we'd likely be talking about him on the level of a guy like Jere Lehtinen.

If Lemieux cared about defense he could have been the best player in the history of the league. But he didn't. So he isn't. He was the most talented player ever, I won't argue that. He didn't take care of his body, he fell into some unfortunate injuries maybe if those things were different he would have been a better player than wayne. But the fact is he missed a lot of games and was rarely in great physical shape, and when you aren't playing you aren't helping your team.


I don't really know where to begin with this. Lemieux's lack of concern with defense keeps him off your list, but Wayne Gretzky, who if he ever saw the defensive zone it was because he got tripped at center ice and slid all the way into it, is still there. Lemieux should have taken care of his body? I guess a few hours in the weight room would have kept those cancer cells at bay or something? Or were you talking about his back problems? That's interesting too. I can't speak in general terms about this, but I work out routinely 4 times a week and I've got chronic back problems anyway. Nothing on the level of Lemieux's, but certainly enough to be a nuisance. Lemieux's lack of interest in conditioning is well known, and it's a common meme used by people who want to trash him, like yourself, but it's not clear to me that the two most debilitating things he suffered from would have been at all alleviated by better conditioning.

my point with that question was to show that guys who lead the league in scoring, for a variety of reasons, typically don't play on cup winning teams.


Other than the defending champions, I guess.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:21 am

ziggystardust wrote:The Soviet hockey people called Bob Gainey the best player in NHL history... I think they know a thing or two about winning hockey.


I do say I find it strange that you're relying so heavily on what the Soviet people said about a league with which they didn't and still don't have any frequent contact. Almost any NHL person who's been asked lists Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe as the best players ever, in whatever order. Sentiment makes people want to add Messier to that list since he just retired. Frankly I think he's always been a little overrated, but more off the ice (like he's freaking Alexander the Great) than on. If the Soviets thought Gainey was the best ever, then that's certainly a point in his favor. However, you're acting as though they would know more than people who have actually played/coached/observed the NHL on a regular basis. That makes little sense to me.
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Re: Say wha?

Postby FallenHero96 on Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:51 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
there is no point in debating this. I don't hate mario, but almost all of this city has worships him like a god.

He wasn't a complete player. Kurri was. Kurri was downright amazing defensively.


Kurri was a complete player who benefited ENORMOUSLY from tagging along with the most prolific player in NHL history. If he hadn't played so many years on Wayne Gretzky's wing, we'd likely be talking about him on the level of a guy like Jere Lehtinen.

If Lemieux cared about defense he could have been the best player in the history of the league. But he didn't. So he isn't. He was the most talented player ever, I won't argue that. He didn't take care of his body, he fell into some unfortunate injuries maybe if those things were different he would have been a better player than wayne. But the fact is he missed a lot of games and was rarely in great physical shape, and when you aren't playing you aren't helping your team.


I don't really know where to begin with this. Lemieux's lack of concern with defense keeps him off your list, but Wayne Gretzky, who if he ever saw the defensive zone it was because he got tripped at center ice and slid all the way into it, is still there. Lemieux should have taken care of his body? I guess a few hours in the weight room would have kept those cancer cells at bay or something? Or were you talking about his back problems? That's interesting too. I can't speak in general terms about this, but I work out routinely 4 times a week and I've got chronic back problems anyway. Nothing on the level of Lemieux's, but certainly enough to be a nuisance. Lemieux's lack of interest in conditioning is well known, and it's a common meme used by people who want to trash him, like yourself, but it's not clear to me that the two most debilitating things he suffered from would have been at all alleviated by better conditioning.

my point with that question was to show that guys who lead the league in scoring, for a variety of reasons, typically don't play on cup winning teams.


Other than the defending champions, I guess.


Ziggy, you just got owned by HomerPenguin. Sorry dude.
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