GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby KBone on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:59 pm

winger wrote:but does there always have to be a whipping boy?

Yes, and if Sid doesn't get his act together soon, it's going to be his turn.


What if Sid continues to put up nearly 2 PPG........ but none of them are goals??? :pop:

Release the hounds!
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby Nizzy on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 am

And to the peeps ripping on me because I ripped on Kennedy...

I gave him props after his games that he came back. This is KENNEDY FAR TOO OFTEN. Remember when we went to Europe and Kennedy was amazing vs the Senators for those 2 games? He will have 2 great games in a row to start something, a season, coming back from injury, etc... play like a 2.0M winger should then

GOES INVISIBLE FOR 6-7 GAMES AT A TIME.

We win today's game if Kennedy gets 1-2 of those shots on net. One of those should have gone in, but he was wide every shot. It's an insult that he makes more than Dupuis/Talbot who both are far more versatile than 'i can cycle the puck kennedy'.

Can't wait to come back on here in 2 weeks and see Kennedy with 1 assist in the next 5 games like what always happens. Oh wait he's with Sid so Sid will probably bounce a few off him like he's been doing for Cooke.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:09 am

How dare Kennedy score at the pace he signed his contract for.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:14 am

If he stays with Crosby, a real evaluation can be made later....however, the early returns indicate that the lack of a quality center is not his problem.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby Guinness on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:31 am

Just to clarify, I don't think there's a grand conspiracy that the league wants the Flyers to win, or even that some call was made in Toronto yesterday ordering that they call the game in favor of the Flyers; I just think - and I thought this was fairly well agreed to in general - that the officials give call the game according to the score, regardless of who is up or down.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby bh on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:11 am

Kennedy is a little frustrating when he gets in a good shooting position, but he was far from the reason we lost that game. There were a lot of people that had a lot of good looks at the net and we only got two when we could have had much more. Sure it would have been nice if TK put one home but I also saw Neal, Sid, and Staal also not score while in a prime goal scoring area with the puck on their sticks.

What lost the game was the inability to keep cool. They need to stay away from the circus and just play hockey.

I thought Staal had a bad game. Always seemed on the wrong side of the puck, fumbled all game, looked slow.
Maybe it's good this streak is over so they don't worry about it anymore.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:17 am

Nizzy wrote:Just came on too say 2 things:

1. Tyler Kennedy how can you make 2.0M as a sniping winger and keep missing the net. He's worthless. Just doesn't have enough to stay on this team after this season imo.


Notsureifserious.jpg

There's your problem right there...he was not signed as a sniping winger, he was signed as a grinder and worker bee...not a sniper, how could anyone think he's a sniper...why would you think that...why would you expect that...
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:18 am

Kennedy had a few solid assists the last several games, but his decision-making is terrible. This isn't "finding something to rip him for", it's being realistic. It was pretty apparent that Sid was getting a little frustrated with him, they even showed him animatedly trying to demonstrate something to him on the bench. He's an extraordinarily streaky "semi-sniper/grinder" with questionable decision-making and vision (while admitting that his primary assists were nice). It is what it is...I don't "hate" him.

I guess the thing that is most frustrating to me is that one of the main roles of a grinder is to maintain offensive zone possession and "grind down" the defense. It is Kennedy's questionable decision-making that puts a quick end on so many offensive zone possessions. Whether it's the shot off the glass that goes to the other team, or a blocked shot that comes out the other way. Grinders cycle the puck and keep it deep, while chasing quality scoring chances.

That being said, it's time to reunite the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line and put Sid on the 2nd line with Dupuis and Sully, IMO.

As far as Hartnell is concerned, of course I hate him in a fan sense. But come on....the guy has 34 goals this year. That's not exactly a fluke number, he is a really, really dangerous shooter. He does his job extraordinarily well....being a pest/creating opportunities for his team. Sometimes he does stupid things, but the amount of stupid things he makes other teams do outweighs it. I certainly have respect for him, even if that puts me on Nizzy's foe list.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:24 am

columbia wrote:If he stays with Crosby, a real evaluation can be made later....however, the early returns indicate that the lack of a quality center is not his problem.


Why is it difficult (not directed at you columbia) to understand the roles and skill level of a hockey player? Kennedy doesn't need a center...he needs a direction in which to go...that's all. Put him with Crosby, put him with Vitale, put him with Fleury...he's gonna score the same basic amount (+/- power play time)...he's a static, grinding, hard working, forechecking winger...why do people expect any more than that...he's a WYSIWYG winger, always has been, that's how he got to this level...he can't score, he has no vision, he's just a really really hard worker...which I have no problem with because I never had illusions of him being anything else. I like him, I defend him a lot because I know what he is and I know what to expect.

Furthermore, he was really good yesterday especially through the first two periods...really good. But people don't realize that because all they see is the puck and they remember Kennedy missing the net a few times...and that's fine and all, but in all honesty, he played a really good game yesterday - like it or not...
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby PghSkins on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:27 am

winger wrote:but does there always have to be a whipping boy?

Yes, and if Sid doesn't get his act together soon, it's going to be his turn.


I just need to quit looking at this site after losses.....
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:28 am

You obviously haven't read the recent analysis, which indicates that the lack of a good C is the cause for his scoring problems.

Maybe I should up my sarcasm level even further, when discussing TK.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:35 am

columbia wrote:You obviously haven't read the recent analysis, which indicates that the lack of a good C is the cause for his scoring problems.


there's a spectrum of quality that goes: good, bad, and 2012 dustin jeffery. in that order. kennedy and dupuis are steady players, PPG-wise. there's several years of data to support that. they both went in the tank with DJ. kennedy can do well with an NHL center, but like anyone else, he has limits.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:33 am

mikey287 wrote:he's a WYSIWYG winger, always has been, that's how he got to this level...he can't score, he has no vision, he's just a really really hard worker...which I have no problem with because I never had illusions of him being anything else.


we're certainly on the same side here, but can you expand on the "no vision" thing? i've seen you say this in the past as well.

i'm not going to pump him up as some sort of play maker. despite my continuous efforts to defend the guy, i don't elevate him to a higher tier than he belongs. but i do see him make some neat plays from time to time. the assist to cooke when he was on his knees, for instance...or even the 2 or 3 nifty plays at the blue line on the PP yesterday. pump the breaks, haters. i'm not saying he has "great" vision, and i certainly believe he has tunnel vision. but i think he makes enough plays that give him "some" vision, no? at least enough to separate him from the adams/vitale level of playmaking.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby marek on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:46 am

DelPen wrote:Fun fact...Giroux autocorrects to girlie on iPhone.


And hartnell autocorrects to hairball.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby The Snapshot on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:17 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Tyler Kennedy how can you make 2.0M as a sniping winger and keep missing the net. He's worthless.


back to the well we go.

yep. he really showed no worth in the last 3 games. and if a 3rd line player isn't scoring goals, he must suck out loud. he is a high paid sniper after all




Sorry, he doesn't get off that easy. He is a top 6 winger according to salary. He isn't playing like it. Seriously, how many times does Crosby need to be open before he passes instead of puts it into the goalies chest or the glass. Staal, Cooke and Dupuis can get away with stretches of no scoring because they bring other qualities, like being integral parts of a top tier pk.


How many times does Crosby get set up with wide open scoring chances and not score......he is making $8.7M afterall....... :roll: :roll:

Kennedy should be getting props for getting assists while playing with a center who can't score a goal.....TK is a 3rd liner, and is paid like one. He has the ability to get hot, which is NOT the case for most 3rd liners.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:20 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Tyler Kennedy how can you make 2.0M as a sniping winger and keep missing the net. He's worthless.


back to the well we go.

yep. he really showed no worth in the last 3 games. and if a 3rd line player isn't scoring goals, he must suck out loud. he is a high paid sniper after all




Sorry, he doesn't get off that easy. He is a top 6 winger according to salary. He isn't playing like it. Seriously, how many times does Crosby need to be open before he passes instead of puts it into the goalies chest or the glass. Staal, Cooke and Dupuis can get away with stretches of no scoring because they bring other qualities, like being integral parts of a top tier pk.


How many times does Crosby get set up with wide open scoring chances and not score......he is making $8.7M afterall....... :roll: :roll:

Kennedy should be getting props for getting assists while playing with a center who can't score a goal.....TK is a 3rd liner, and is paid like one. He has the ability to get hot, which is NOT the case for most 3rd liners.


It's not that uncommon. The Pens have two of them and they both make less than Kennedy.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:16 pm

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:he's a WYSIWYG winger, always has been, that's how he got to this level...he can't score, he has no vision, he's just a really really hard worker...which I have no problem with because I never had illusions of him being anything else.


we're certainly on the same side here, but can you expand on the "no vision" thing? i've seen you say this in the past as well.

i'm not going to pump him up as some sort of play maker. despite my continuous efforts to defend the guy, i don't elevate him to a higher tier than he belongs. but i do see him make some neat plays from time to time. the assist to cooke when he was on his knees, for instance...or even the 2 or 3 nifty plays at the blue line on the PP yesterday. pump the breaks, haters. i'm not saying he has "great" vision, and i certainly believe he has tunnel vision. but i think he makes enough plays that give him "some" vision, no? at least enough to separate him from the adams/vitale level of playmaking.


Well, no vision is just the poor awareness of passing and seeing plays develop. He doesn't really have a good grasp of what's happening next, he just knows what's happening now and what he's doing. You talk about it in football terms...Peyton Manning knows where all 22 players are, he knows the routes, he knows the play, he knows what the defense will do, he knows what his guys will do, he knows how much time he has, he knows how to pass...

Then you talk about a guy like Tim Tebow...he has a vague grasp of where his own guys are, maybe one or two of them - an A route and a B route - he doesn't know what's going on really...vague sense of timing, vague sense of the game as a whole...he can make the simple play, the pre-packaged play but really he can't make something out of nothing, he has no divine passing ability. I don't know how else to describe it really...

I'd love to make you a video but don't have the means at the minute...the game vs. Philly there was a good example that I think Gaucho and I both spotted as "woof" more or less...forced a shortside pass to Crosby who was in coverage - 2 guys in his face, and backside support...had a chance to advance the puck to Matt Cooke in open space as I believe the D was completing a bit of a line change...it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it was a great example of his "binary" status - he's up or down, left or right, shoot now or pass now, forecheck or backcheck...not a lot of hockey sense, that's why it's a little surprising that a relatively highly paid role player that works as hard for this team as Kennedy does - doesn't play special teams really - notably not the PK...that says a lot.

Reminder: I may be Kennedy's biggest defender on the board. Only because his role and limits are obvious to me and I don't expact more...I like him, but he's a static producer.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:41 pm

He has a very low hockey IQ and that explains just about every one of his decisions and actions on the ice.
Some find comfort in that; others don't.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby bhaw on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:21 pm

offsides wrote:This board is sounding more and more like a Flyer's board with the conspiracy stuff. I thought Bettman was the one that ordered Sid and the Pens to win the cup, not the Flyers. Are yuinz saying Bettman gave orders to make sure the Flyers win this year? Bad, dumb or wrong calls does not equal a conspiracy.


Because this would be the opposite of exactly what I said 3 times... I specifically said there is no conspiracy to help one team over the other. But I'd be willing to sit here while you find another time refs have ever called a penalty on a guy for their stick hitting someone on the bench, which happens multiple times a game. My comments were that I have been watching for over 20 years and have NEVER once seen that call.

If you are saying that there is no correlation of the refs calling penalties skewed towards keeping games close, I can show you at least 20-30 examples that say otherwise. Perhaps you can explain the Winter Classic and how that went down...
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:27 pm

mikey287 wrote:...


i get what you're saying, and i think it's in line with the tunnel vision thing i was saying, but putting it in absolutes like, "no vision" doesn't quite add up for me. i feel like a qualifier should be at the end of that statement like, "compared to...". i said it in the other thread (and in many others probably) - he's 3rd on the team behind only sid and geno in even strength assists per game (5th, i think, in overall APG with no top unit PP time). even adjusting for potential scoring-by-osmosis, that's nothing to sneeze at. it's actually really impressive. sure it's not proof of superior passing, but in addition to showing that there's a good net offensive product when he's on the ice, it does imply some level of "vision".

the no vision thing fits in nicely with your overall scouting report and is the cherry on the sundae of the north/south drone persona, but i don't fully buy it.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby bhaw on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Guinness wrote:Just to clarify, I don't think there's a grand conspiracy that the league wants the Flyers to win, or even that some call was made in Toronto yesterday ordering that they call the game in favor of the Flyers; I just think - and I thought this was fairly well agreed to in general - that the officials give call the game according to the score, regardless of who is up or down.


Thanks.

I'm attributing the response that we are creating a grand conspiracy (regardless of how explicitly we say otherwise) to the "Look how anti-homer I am!" syndrome. The disease where you try so hard to show you have no bias that you have to create make-believe biases by other fans to knock down and show just how fair in your analysis you are.

It's like the "If someone said this on the Caps/Flyers' board..." comments. If I were someone that trolled other team's message boards and made fun of them, it's almost relevant. And that would be if I was actually blaming the refs for what happened instead of saying, you know, that the Pens lost it themselves 3-4 times.

I can just save a lot of time and be one of the idiots who just posts how the refs suck and it's all their fault instead of framing my comments next time since too many people either refuse to read or cannot comprehend.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby offsides on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:40 pm

bhaw wrote:
offsides wrote:This board is sounding more and more like a Flyer's board with the conspiracy stuff. I thought Bettman was the one that ordered Sid and the Pens to win the cup, not the Flyers. Are yuinz saying Bettman gave orders to make sure the Flyers win this year? Bad, dumb or wrong calls does not equal a conspiracy.


Because this would be the opposite of exactly what I said 3 times... I specifically said there is no conspiracy to help one team over the other. But I'd be willing to sit here while you find another time refs have ever called a penalty on a guy for their stick hitting someone on the bench, which happens multiple times a game. My comments were that I have been watching for over 20 years and have NEVER once seen that call.

If you are saying that there is no correlation of the refs calling penalties skewed towards keeping games close, I can show you at least 20-30 examples that say otherwise. Perhaps you can explain the Winter Classic and how that went down...


I was not referring to you or anyone in particular. I will agree that a team ahead has a harder time getting a powerplay, but it happens. If a team is ahead, they have to not lose discipline (Geno) and play as clean as possible. I see many teams finish off a team without getting called for stupid penalties. I have also seen the Pens be behind and get called for a late game penalty. Not every team that is behind gets the man advantage. Have to not get drawn into the other team getting physical and getting a team to take penalties. Most important, if a penalty is called, good or bad, play through it.

I was really referring to the people who complain about every penalty call against no matter the score. The GDT is full of people who think we never commit a penalty and the other team has at least 25 uncalled penalties on them every game. they also think all the refs are incompetent and hate us. As I said, sounds like a Flyer fan talking about the Pens.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:50 pm

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:...


i get what you're saying, and i think it's in line with the tunnel vision thing i was saying, but putting it in absolutes like, "no vision" doesn't quite add up for me. i feel like a qualifier should be at the end of that statement like, "compared to...". i said it in the other thread (and in many others probably) - he's 3rd on the team behind only sid and geno in even strength assists per game (5th, i think, in overall APG with no top unit PP time). even adjusting for potential scoring-by-osmosis, that's nothing to sneeze at. it's actually really impressive. sure it's not proof of superior passing, but in addition to showing that there's a good net offensive product when he's on the ice, it does imply some level of "vision".

the no vision thing fits in nicely with your overall scouting report and is the cherry on the sundae of the north/south drone persona, but i don't fully buy it.


Well, look, that's not unfair - but that's just not how I would look at it. I'd like to see Kennedy's assists and see how many come from rebounds or off the cycle (everyone touches it) - I'd like to see Kennedy's "organic" plays as he's clearly in anomaly territory for his career (0.2-0.3 assists per game career - this year, over 0.4) but yet his goal totals (0.12 vs. 0.2-0.25 for his career) almost beg you to infer that someone else is putting in his shots (not his passes) as he's shooting more than 3.1 or 3.2 times per game (career 2.5-2.75 or thereabouts, I just kind of glanced it) but his shooting percentage is way down (below 4, career ~8% or 9% shooter) and his assists are way up...

"No vision" is versus his peers - I say Byfuglien sucks, vs. the population, no he doesn't suck in that context...vs. his peers he sucks. Back to TK, versus NHLers in his situation, he has very limited vision and creativity...that's all. I think that's demonstrated in most games. Let's not forget this guy is a legitimate regular NHLer, he's not devoid of skill, but versus his peers his vision/creativity/passing are not even average in my opinion.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:10 pm

if his peers include the entire nhl population, saying his vision/creativity/passing is below average isn't unfair. high-end players drive up the mean, and there are plenty of skill guys out there who are in the league for that reason alone. if his peers are limited to the cookes and dupuis of the league - guys in comparable roles - then i don't agree. pinpointing individual plays doesn't prove much, but in the last 3 games, he's made several plays that don't usually exist in the world of drones.
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Re: GDT: cryers v. PENGUINS (3/18/2012)

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:32 pm

shmenguin wrote:if his peers include the entire nhl population, saying his vision/creativity/passing is below average isn't unfair. high-end players drive up the mean, and there are plenty of skill guys out there who are in the league for that reason alone. if his peers are limited to the cookes and dupuis of the league - guys in comparable roles - then i don't agree. pinpointing individual plays doesn't prove much, but in the last 3 games, he's made several plays that don't usually exist in the world of drones.


I don't want to make any snide or snarky comments here because I do enjoy the discussion, but I'm not sure that there's anymore than "agree to disagree" here which is perfectly fine. I'll say this to your last sentence (re: last 3 games) and my response would be his play was very drone-like for the 300 before that. Which isn't the most fair thing to respond to, so I'd accept a similar comment back and give you the last word... :fist:
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