Marc Andre Fleury

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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby DesertPenguin on Mon May 07, 2012 3:14 am

Nizzy wrote:DesertPenguin what an amazing post.

What also needs to be added is, Smith outplayed Fleury because Smith feels the defense around him. The confidence you can gain as a goalie from that is great. You will feel much better with a phoenix whole team defensive system versus the defensive mess Tampa has been when he was there.

Penguins couldnt even pick up open guys in the zone all series vs Philly. MAF had no confidence playing vs the junk defense we iced. Plus I just honestly believe he was overused and playing playoff hockey for us for about 6 weeks going into the playoffs because we had no backup.


Great point about Smith's confidence. Smith is playing lights out in his own right, but he's doing it in part because of the faith he has in the guys in front of him and the ability to anticipate what they'll do - because theyre doing their jobs. Otherwise he's on his own out there trying to react to our players as well as theirs.

I definitely agree as well that we need a strong backup. Johnson was that guy last season for us. This year, it was cringeville every time he had to make a stop. Flower will get the benefit of the doubt to get back to form. Johnson on the other hand is probably done as a Pen. Here's hoping they bring in a solid veteran that can share the load on a more consistent basis, even if they need to pay more than 600K for it.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby steelhammer on Mon May 07, 2012 6:41 am

MRandall25 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
DesertPenguin wrote:Goaltending is a serious crapshoot. So much of it is based on the team system and the players in front of the goalie. That goes for wins, save % and GAA.

Take Phoenix (my present home) for example. Bryzgalov - Lights out goaltender in Phoenix. Leaves for Philly, is mediocre all season and loses his job to Bobrovsky for a time. On the other hand, Mike Smith, a journeyman deemed not worth keeping on the Lightning last season, played this season arguably better than Bryz ever did. Smith had a save % of .899 and a GAA of 2.70 last season. In Phoenix, .930 and 2.21. In the playoffs, he is a mindboggling .946 and 1.85. Why was he so average in Tampa and is unstoppable in Phx?

Vokoun is another example. Great stats in Fla, but nothing special in Wash this year.

What is my point? Don't look to replace Flower thinking a guy like Bernier makes it all better. Some of it is on him, and he needs to be better, but I lay the majority of the blame on the Pen's D and the system. Flower has shown the talent to be elite. Not many goalies in the league have it. Put him on a team like Phx and I think hes a Vezina winner. Fix the mess in front of him, and we will be just fine as well.


Or maybe Smith is just a better goalie than Fleury and Bryzgalov at this point in his career. Sure seems like it.


Are you high?


Smith played circles around both Fleury and Bryzgalov in the regular season and is now doing so in the post-season. If you want to just assume that Fleury is still better then go ahead, but your argument is highly subjective at this point.


So you're just going to ignore the fact Smith couldn't even hold a starting job before he got to Phoenix?


I don't even understand what your argument is at this point so I'll stop responding. I thought we were talking about this season where Smith has proven to be the much more dependable goalie. If you think defense alone is the difference between a .946 and a .834 sv% then I'm not sure what else there is to be said.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Mon May 07, 2012 7:05 am

steelhammer wrote:I don't even understand what your argument is at this point so I'll stop responding. I thought we were talking about this season where Smith has proven to be the much more dependable goalie. If you think defense alone is the difference between a .946 and a .834 sv% then I'm not sure what else there is to be said.


Sean Burke is a big reason why Smith is playing well. In his first two seasons as a goalie coach, Burke helped Bryzgalov put up the two best seasons of his career before he moved on to Philly. Now, in his third season, he's taken a completely unwanted goalie and turned him into a big-time performer.

Smith is the perfect example of what a capable goalie coach and team committed to defense can do for a goalie.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby MRandall25 on Mon May 07, 2012 7:48 am

steelhammer wrote:I don't even understand what your argument is at this point so I'll stop responding. I thought we were talking about this season where Smith has proven to be the much more dependable goalie. If you think defense alone is the difference between a .946 and a .834 sv% then I'm not sure what else there is to be said.


I'm saying you're completely ignoring the fact that Mike Smith never started more than 40 games until he got to Phoenix. I'm saying you're completely ignoring track record.

Put him on a team that's not Phoenix and we'll see how he does.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby steelhammer on Mon May 07, 2012 8:07 am

MRandall25 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I don't even understand what your argument is at this point so I'll stop responding. I thought we were talking about this season where Smith has proven to be the much more dependable goalie. If you think defense alone is the difference between a .946 and a .834 sv% then I'm not sure what else there is to be said.


I'm saying you're completely ignoring the fact that Mike Smith never started more than 40 games until he got to Phoenix. I'm saying you're completely ignoring track record.

Put him on a team that's not Phoenix and we'll see how he does.


Again, not sure what his track record has anything to do with this season. I suppose if you want to talk about track record we could discuss Fleury's last 4 playoff series (combined .880 sv%). Or we could just stick to talking about this season where Fleury is dead last among playoff goalies in sv% (and is not even close to 2nd worst).

Same goes for playing on Phoenix. Smith is averaging 37 shots against per game. That's supposed to be an ideal situation for a goalie? The fact is that Smith is getting it done and Fleury is not, again. I guess we could trade him and see how Fleury would do on Phoenix, but I doubt they would want him.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby brwi on Mon May 07, 2012 9:07 am

tfrizz wrote:Sean Burke is a big reason why Smith is playing well. In his first two seasons as a goalie coach, Burke helped Bryzgalov put up the two best seasons of his career before he moved on to Philly. Now, in his third season, he's taken a completely unwanted goalie and turned him into a big-time performer.

Smith is the perfect example of what a capable goalie coach and team committed to defense can do for a goalie.


Smith came into the NHL and was very good right away with the Stars. After that, he struggled some in TB but it's never been a question of physical ability with him. He's a BIG goaltender with amazing reflexes and athleticism. He's probably the best puck-handling goaltender in the NHL too. Now he plays more under control and fundamentally sound than in the past and I agree that Sean Burke does deserve a lot of credit for getting the best out of Mike Smith.

PHX's team D deserves a lot of credit too as evidenced by the fortress they pretty much threw up against the Preds in Game 4, but Smith has been stellar all year and even upped it a notch in the playoffs so far.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Jasmine on Mon May 07, 2012 9:19 am

Smith and Coyotes winning . . . Universe and Flyers losing. Ahhhhhhhhh some things in life are soooooo good! 8-)
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rylan on Tue May 08, 2012 9:55 am

Cool article in ESPN. Talking about goalies versus dangerous shots. It was for insiders only but a quick google search yields a 3rd party with the full article.

http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.ph ... ost9369166

I am curious to see what Fleury's numbers versus dangerous shots were.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Posterboy on Wed May 09, 2012 9:59 pm

Wonder if he could benefit from adding some muscle. I know muscle and strength aren't the same thing, but TSN has him at 6'2", 180 lbs. That's pretty slim for a guy who plays an athletic style and saw a lot of action this year. I've seen Quick listed at 6'1" or 2' and he supposedly weighs 215 lbs. I know that physical fatigue decreases mental acuity and wonder if that was a factor in some his play. Certainly wouldn't think bulking up too much would be good for the reflexes, especially if he's used to playing at a lower weight, but maybe a few protein shakes and some lifting might do him some good.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Bathgate on Wed May 09, 2012 11:43 pm

The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rylan on Wed May 09, 2012 11:49 pm

Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


They have? Twice? But I understand that the 4 rounds since are more important than the 8 rounds prior...
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 10, 2012 12:06 am

Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


So you mention "defense first" and then blame Fleury...

Defense didn't do it's job.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rocco on Thu May 10, 2012 12:07 am

Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


There is empircal evidence that it can be done.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Streaks House on Thu May 10, 2012 12:08 am

Rylan wrote:
Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


They have? Twice? But I understand that the 4 rounds since are more important than the 8 rounds prior...


If the team starts playing more structured/disciplined in the defensive zone, I'm confident that MAF would play much better as he wouldn't be relied on to make saves on 20+ quality chances a game, and with that, improve statistically (since "stats" are everything for Dutch's evaluation of a goaltender's value).
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Staggy on Thu May 10, 2012 12:09 am

Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


This year the final four teams have goaltending ranging from mediocre to great. Two years ago the final four goalies ranged from bad to mediocre. It's one year, it's not a trend.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Bathgate on Thu May 10, 2012 12:17 am

Rylan wrote:
Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


They have? Twice? But I understand that the 4 rounds since are more important than the 8 rounds prior...


I'm suggesting this style may be the only way to win in the playoffs in this latest "new NHL". What worked for Bylsma in 2008 and 2009 may no longer have a chance. The Caps transformation seems to prove it. But say the Pens did change their style as the Caps did to defense-first, would Fleury be good enough? Put another way, if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rylan on Thu May 10, 2012 12:19 am

Bathgate wrote:
Rylan wrote:
Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


They have? Twice? But I understand that the 4 rounds since are more important than the 8 rounds prior...


I'm suggesting this style may be the only way to win in the playoffs in this latest "new NHL". What worked for Bylsma in 2008 and 2009 may no longer have a chance. The Caps transformation seems to prove it. But say the Pens did change their style as the Caps did to defense-first, would Fleury be good enough? Put another way, if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Yes.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Fast B on Thu May 10, 2012 12:56 am

Bathgate wrote:The teams still surviving in this year’s Stanley Cup playoffs (Rangers, Capitals, Devils, Coyotes, and Kings) are doing it with total dedication to defense first and consistent brilliant goaltending. If this style is the newest required formula for winning in the playoffs, can anybody envision the Pens ever having any chance to win multiple rounds with Fleury in goal?


I know you're trolling, but I can think of two examples off the top of my head.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Streaks House on Thu May 10, 2012 1:18 am

Bathgate wrote:if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Absolutely.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Thu May 10, 2012 11:23 pm

Streaks House wrote:
Bathgate wrote:if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Absolutely.


Totally disagree. Fleury was solid in ONE game of that series. This is completely and utterly incorrect.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 10, 2012 11:39 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Streaks House wrote:
Bathgate wrote:if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Absolutely.


Totally disagree. Fleury was solid in ONE game of that series. This is completely and utterly incorrect.


But Fleury would've/may have been insulated by the remaining teams' defensive efforts, and maybe he wouldn't have worn himself out.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Pitts on Thu May 10, 2012 11:48 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Streaks House wrote:
Bathgate wrote:if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Absolutely.


Totally disagree. Fleury was solid in ONE game of that series. This is completely and utterly incorrect.

C'mon Snapper, was there ANYTHING resembling team defense in front of Fleury? How many odd man breaks did he have to make up for that lack of defense? What about the inept powerplay and penalty kill that both gave up a ton of goals? There is no way that series loss was on Fleury. He can't stand on his head, and shouldn't have to, every game.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Fri May 11, 2012 7:38 am

The Snapshot wrote:
Streaks House wrote:
Bathgate wrote:if Fleury were the primary goalie on one of those surviving 5 teams instead of Lundquist, Holtby, Brodeur, Smith or Quick, would that team still be there?


Absolutely.


Totally disagree. Fleury was solid in ONE game of that series. This is completely and utterly incorrect.


As a few have already alluded to, if Fleury was playing behind a good defensive team - like each of the goalies you mentioned are - then he may not have run into that confidence issue we see from him every time the defense starts to struggle.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rocco on Fri May 11, 2012 8:01 am

I think it's fair to say that the playoffs was a joint effort in failure. It takes a village to fail as badly as the Pens did.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Rylan on Fri May 11, 2012 9:23 am

Rocco wrote:I think it's fair to say that the playoffs was a joint effort in failure. It takes a village to fail as badly as the Pens did.


Goaltending is a position where it is generally an accurate reflection of the rest of the team. If a goalie consistently plays well, then this is more than likely brought on by solid team defense.

I am just going to assume many of you didn't read (or the article had disappeared) about goalies versus dangerous shots. (Dangerous shots, or scoring chances, are those that originate from an area loosely defined as the top of the circles inside the faceoff dots to the goal line.) In the regular season 49% of all shots were considered dangerous and goalies had an average sv% of .854.

I strongly recommend just looking over the article because I personally found it fascinating.
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