Marc Andre Fleury

[offsides]

I'm pretty sure goalie never want to be beaten. If he's in position, that goal goes in. The only way he stops it is if he's cheating to the short-side or, you know, out of position.

If you can't stop a tough one now and then, what good are you? Anyone can stop the one at the chest protector. Sure it was a team effort but he was a large part of that piss poor effort.

[steelhammer]

game. sv% needed to win / sv% Fleury

1. .917 / .846
2. .871 / .767
3. .912 / .786
4. .640 / .880
5. .923 / .923
6. 1.000 / .818

Total. .879 / .834

[Hawkeynut]

I like that comparison and proves the thought I was thinking that if Fleury were just average, we would be a happy bunch today.

But... I am not throwing Fleury under the bus for the series loss. Alot of things went wrong and I am just tucking my tail between my legs and hoping for a start to finish healthy season next year.

[joe]

I concur hawkeynut. You cant blame this on fleury. It was a team collapse. Fleury many times was an island.

[DudeMan2766]

MAF gave up a goal on the first shot today. Good way to flatten your teammates.

Was that the uncontested shot that came off the stick of the most dangerous player in the series from just outside the dot...and had to hit the post to go in...meaning that the only way he could've saved it was to be grossly out of position? Yeah, he totally should've stopped that one.

He wasn't good tonight, but his teammates didn't need flattening...they were already flat when the puck was dropped.

And theres the obligatory "Fleury was bad but so was everyone else post" You sound like Madden when BRoeth has a bad game. Yes we know. We've all acknowledged the rest of the team. But he let in 4 goals on 16 shots today. And a soul crushing 3rd goal that Bryz wouldnt even give up. He has his moments were he is all world, but he has more moments where he lets in goals no other NHL goalie would. Not to mention the ones he always knocks in himself. This has been going on since he was in juniors. He constantly screws up behind the net, he constantly lets in goals that hit him first, and he's had 2 good playoff runs. And even during those runs he displayed the same flaws he's had his entire career.

It's not obligatory...it's voluntarily made to point out the truth. Fleury wasn't good, but neither were his teammates. Are you honestly disputing this? Which team's skaters had a better game this afternoon? Which D did a better job of pressuring the opposition? Which team insulated their struggling GT by getting back, getting sticks in lanes, and sacrificing their body to block shots? You're absolutely correct that Bryz wouldn't have let that 3rd goal in today because it wouldn't have made it through the D.

He's knocked 1 goal in himself in, like, 3 years...but feel free to keep exaggerating that point if you'd like.

He has flaws, no doubt, but he's not the only one. He gets singled out because he's the goaltender, but he's just 1 of 20 guys today that did nothing to help their team win.

We're just going around in circles man. Just arguing pretty much the same things. Lets call it.

[Bathgate]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

[count2infinity]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

even drafting in the first round a goalie will spend a year or two in the minors before he becomes NHL back-up level and even then they'll likely keep that player down in the minors to make sure he gets reps instead of just sitting on the bench in the NHL.

[steelhammer]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

even drafting in the first round a goalie will spend a year or two in the minors before he becomes NHL back-up level and even then they'll likely keep that player down in the minors to make sure he gets reps instead of just sitting on the bench in the NHL.

Pens would be best to make a deal with the Predators who have far and away the most goaltending depth. Now the Rinne is signed long-term, perhaps the Pens could try to trade for Smith, Hellberg or maybe even Lindback? Either of those goalies would make a fine backup in Pittsburgh (by Pens standards). They all have the potential to be more than that as well.

[tfrizz]

They had a closeup of MAF before the game started. He looked scared to me. I'm just sitting on the couch watching the game, so maybe I'm way off about that.

One of the announcers did mention though, that he didn't look sharp in warmups.

Yeah, they said he was whiffing on routine glove saves in warm-up. It really makes you wonder about the game he collided with Martin... he never looked the same after that.

[tfrizz]

Subjectively, it feels like MAF's best games are where is under siege and facing a number of shots. He appears to wander mentally in games where he isn't being tested for long stretches. He also tends to give up a completely horrendous goal at the worst possible moment. You could probably level those criticisms at nearly every goalie, but it's noticeable with MAF since they always seem to surface in the playoffs. There are obviously worse flaws to have in a goalie but these are maddening ones.

Obviously, MAF is a great goalie for the regular season. There's empirical evidence you can win a Cup with him. And the Pens can't look to trade him- there's no one close to being as good as him on the market, and they don't have a long-term solution close to being ready. But at this point I don't think MAF's mental problems are fixable. He's come a long way physically. He started out with amazing reflexes and horrible form and has since developed good form (he ain't on Brodeur's level as a pure butterfly goalie, but that's an impossible standard). But the same problems have plagued him the entire time. Maybe the Pens just have to hope that lightning can strike twice and he can slap together 2 more good months at the end of the year again?

He always has played better under a barrage of shots. IIRC, he even admitted to having trouble focusing in games where he didn't face a lot of shots.

Subjectively, it feels like MAF's best games are where is under siege and facing a number of shots. He appears to wander mentally in games where he isn't being tested for long stretches. He also tends to give up a completely horrendous goal at the worst possible moment. You could probably level those criticisms at nearly every goalie, but it's noticeable with MAF since they always seem to surface in the playoffs. There are obviously worse flaws to have in a goalie but these are maddening ones.

Obviously, MAF is a great goalie for the regular season. There's empirical evidence you can win a Cup with him. And the Pens can't look to trade him- there's no one close to being as good as him on the market, and they don't have a long-term solution close to being ready. But at this point I don't think MAF's mental problems are fixable. He's come a long way physically. He started out with amazing reflexes and horrible form and has since developed good form (he ain't on Brodeur's level as a pure butterfly goalie, but that's an impossible standard). But the same problems have plagued him the entire time. Maybe the Pens just have to hope that lightning can strike twice and he can slap together 2 more good months at the end of the year again?

I don't know if I agree with that. It sounds an awful lot like Draftnik and others' pronouncement that (paraphrasing) he was never a winner in juniors so he'd never be a winner in the NHL.

I do think he needs a new coach, and possibly a good long chat with a sports psychologist or something. Dude has miles of talent and some big focus issues to match.

I think that's a big thing. I know he had no goalie coach until the year he got hurt, but has he really improved at all under Meloche? It seems like most of the improvement we've seen could simply be classified as maturation.

[RxBandit66]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

even drafting in the first round a goalie will spend a year or two in the minors before he becomes NHL back-up level and even then they'll likely keep that player down in the minors to make sure he gets reps instead of just sitting on the bench in the NHL.

Pens would be best to make a deal with the Predators who have far and away the most goaltending depth. Now the Rinne is signed long-term, perhaps the Pens could try to trade for Smith, Hellberg or maybe even Lindback? Either of those goalies would make a fine backup in Pittsburgh (by Pens standards). They all have the potential to be more than that as well.

I like your thinking here.

[tfrizz]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

even drafting in the first round a goalie will spend a year or two in the minors before he becomes NHL back-up level and even then they'll likely keep that player down in the minors to make sure he gets reps instead of just sitting on the bench in the NHL.

One of the biggest problems is there haven't been any high-end goalie prospects going through the draft the last 3-4 years, and none in the foreseeable future. That's why teams like Edmonton are still searching for a legitimate starter despite drafting Dubnyk at #5 overall.

Big problem number two is that any team with a goalie who'd be any sort of improvement over MAF doesn't even consider moving them or letting them go.

Statistically speaking, their best route is drafting a European goalie in the 4th-6th round and waiting 5 or 6 years to see if they pan out.

[Staggy]

Is it time for the Pens to draft a goalie in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft? I think so.

even drafting in the first round a goalie will spend a year or two in the minors before he becomes NHL back-up level and even then they'll likely keep that player down in the minors to make sure he gets reps instead of just sitting on the bench in the NHL.

One of the biggest problems is there haven't been any high-end goalie prospects going through the draft the last 3-4 years, and none in the foreseeable future. That's why teams like Edmonton are still searching for a legitimate starter despite drafting Dubnyk at #5 overall.

Big problem number two is that any team with a goalie who'd be any sort of improvement over MAF doesn't even consider moving them or letting them go.

Statistically speaking, their best route is drafting a European goalie in the 4th-6th round and waiting 5 or 6 years to see if they pan out.

Not saying this is the way to go but I think Carey Price for Fleury is a trade beneficial for both sides. It's done wonders for my team in NHL 12 :)

[Rocco]

Subjectively, it feels like MAF's best games are where is under siege and facing a number of shots.

He always has played better under a barrage of shots. IIRC, he even admitted to having trouble focusing in games where he didn't face a lot of shots.

I said "subjectively" because I don't have numbers in front of me showing his record/stats in games based on shots allowed. I'm sure it is out there.

Subjectively, it feels like MAF's best games are where is under siege and facing a number of shots. He appears to wander mentally in games where he isn't being tested for long stretches. He also tends to give up a completely horrendous goal at the worst possible moment. You could probably level those criticisms at nearly every goalie, but it's noticeable with MAF since they always seem to surface in the playoffs. There are obviously worse flaws to have in a goalie but these are maddening ones.

I think that's a big thing. I know he had no goalie coach until the year he got hurt, but has he really improved at all under Meloche? It seems like most of the improvement we've seen could simply be classified as maturation.

He's better than he was as a rookie, and not just from maturation/experience. He had no form or style when he started and was a completely reactionary goalie. When he's playing well he's great at positioning himself and has much better rebound control than he did as a rookie/young goalie. And his puck handling is "below average" now, which is up from "for the love of God stay in your net". He's incredibly talented but at this point the mental aspect his holding him back. I also wonder if he was hurt by the lockout in the sense that he really could have used that year of work at the NHL level. Maybe it didn't ruin his development but delay it.

[Bathgate]

Dan Hopper of “SB Nation Pittsburgh” has an excellent and very rational piece entitled “Why It's Not Wrong To Criticize Marc-Andre Fleury For The Penguins' Elimination”. It also discusses the idea of whether or not it’s acceptable to blame goalies in general, a topic of much contention on this board.

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/pittsburgh-penguins/2012/4/23/2967193/marc-andre-fleury-penguins-vs-flyers-nhl-playoffs

[Puck Drama]

Fleury can't be counted on and the Pens need a better backup to call upon when he is playing poorly. Johnny got to go and the Pens must make it a priority to bring in a goalie that Bylsma is not afraid to turn to in times of turmoil.b

[lemieuxReturns]

If Subban is available at the draft, do the pens take him in the first round? Some projections have him as high as 10th, but it is entirely possible that he is available when the pens pick.

[tfrizz]

If Subban is available at the draft, do the pens take him in the first round? Some projections have him as high as 10th, but it is entirely possible that he is available when the pens pick.

I hope not, and it has nothing to do with Subban. I read an article last month that provided a significant argument that drafting a goalie high is a wasteful pick because of the extreme unpredictability of goaltenders. They backed it up with a lot of highly drafted busts, and supported it with the number of goalies drafted late that have panned out.

Personally, I feel like most teams tend to rush goalies that are drafted high. While you can certainly get young forwards and defensemen that are NHL-ready, it's extremely rare for a goalie... so when a team uses a high pick on one, they are showing very high expectations. In turn, this usually leads to inappropriate time for the goalie to develop. Alternatively, when a team drafts a goalie late they typically do so with no real expectations. This means that goalie is given all the time they need to fully develop.

If I were GMRS, I'd be more inclined to target guys like Linus Ullman or Roman Will a bit later in the draft. Focus more on improving depth on the wings early on.

[pittsports87]

Bring back Sebastian Caron (2:02 into the 2nd video):

[Pens15]

I've never been a big Fleury fan. Always been a critic of his or "hater" if you like. He's shut me up on some occasions, only to fall off again before too long.

For all his ability, he's just way too much of a flakey performer. Too unreliable. And he's ALWAYS had that rap, before he even set foot in the NHL. Remember the infamous WJC goal? I don't see him ever changing at this point.

[Eismann]

What goalies are better than MAF? Playoff wins and Cup wins will be counted, as will exits. So, basically, every goalie who has not won a Cup will be worse.

It's a crap shoot.

[dman66]

I do wish they would get rid of Meloche. A different voice could help Fleury hit his potential. Couple that with a back up that will be able to play 25-30 as well as push him, and I think you would see the best of Fleury yet.

[duke66]

I do wish they would get rid of Meloche. A different voice could help Fleury hit his potential. Couple that with a back up that will be able to play 25-30 as well as push him, and I think you would see the best of Fleury yet.

totally agree.

[The Snapshot]

I do wish they would get rid of Meloche. A different voice could help Fleury hit his potential. Couple that with a back up that will be able to play 25-30 as well as push him, and I think you would see the best of Fleury yet.

As much as I criticize him, I am not advocating just tossing him aside because his core skills are amazing. I just think he tends to lose himself in certain games. It is widely acknowledged here that he must lead the league in blown shutouts with under 10 minutes to go, and many of those are not great goals he is surrendering.

He still struggles with confidence at times, and concentration at all times. He just isn't a consistent goalie shot in and shot out.

I do advocate a new voice as a goalie coach and then see where he is two years down the road.

[Pens15]

I think blaming the goalie coach is the best one I've heard since the terrible PP was all Yeo's fault.