How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase now?

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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 03, 2012 12:51 pm

The Snapshot wrote:It is perfectly understandable that many Waitlist folks would say no years later when they get a chance. I don't think the prices have as much to do with that as the fact that it was a relatively cheap bet to place when the team was very hot. Those at the top of the list only put down a few hundred dollars years ago. Situations change, kids, jobs, etc.

So is it that surprising that they would not accept when their number was called?

I will say though that the secondary market has dropped off notably in the last few seasons. When I come in for games, I am somewhat surprised as well by how many of the seats around me that I know are owned locally are occupied by secondary buyers. I guess there are changes in circumstances for these folks as well, but they used to be at every game and I was the one that was the oddball by only making the weekend games.

I would guess that their love of the Pens hasn't changed, but their finances around thier decision to attend or not has to at least be influenced by paying for the tix. The 40% increase though should by logic only mean they resell about 25% of the games with markup factored in to stay even - but I am telling you that they are NOT there more than they are there in attendance during those 15 or so games I made this year.

Could be that they sell the weekend games due to demand and markup, but I would also assume that they would be easier and more desireable games to hold on to as well.

I guess my point is, I don't have a clue why but I can see the signs that something is impacting both secondary demand and the dedication of previously committed season ticket holders. At least in my section, nobody I know is going to all of the games themselves.

It has been pointed out in the past that the ideal price would be the one that still has all seats sold with zero secondary market. That puts all of the revenue into the Pens coffers. The fact that people need to re-sell their tickets is offset by the fact that someone is willing to pay a premium to get the tix on a game basis - and this indicates that the prices are still lower than the mythical ideal figure. It is a dangerous game to play, but I understand why the team does it.

When the new arena opened, I said then that there would be season over season increases to regulate them with others around the league in new arenas. I do think 40-50% is the saturation point and I am just glad that the team has done it in steps instead of two big 25% increases in the first two seasons.


I do disagree that the secondary market has much to do with actual pricing. It's too small of a sample is only based off of demand that there are no tickets or they can get specific seats. By that I mean if the pens tried to charge what the secondary market shows they wouldn't sellout. In the end I think the pens miss out on some money from 500 tickets or so, not 18000, but that goes away,especially this year if there are tickets available on ticketmaster which there have been this year.

The pens are 3rd in the American teams in the NHL in pricing, ahead of Boston and Chicago so it's not all that in line with pricing of new buildings, market and/or team performance. I believe they might have been 1 in American teams in playoff pricing too ahead of even the rangers.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Jopaz on Thu May 03, 2012 1:24 pm

I have been following this thread but not posting until now...a few comments/questions:

- Where does the 40% increase number come from. I have season tickets in the lower bowl, double attack end. These were $76 in the last year at Mellon, then $82 in the first year at CEC, $86 this year, and will be $90 next year. That is barely a total 20% increase over 3 years.

- Some folks seem to be upset at the Student Rush program. How is that hurting anyone? So what if it kept the sellout streak alive? I think it is a great way to let the young fans get to see games that they other wise could not afford.

- I posted this a while back in another thread, but many corporate STH owners do not purchase play off tickets. Companies often use tickets to entertain customers or employees. The play off set-up is not as good for that, since the schedule is not known well in advance, and the more intense atmosphere does not lend itself to business discussions. My neighbor's company has STH for both Pens and Steelers (club seats), and they never buy the playoff package.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby knives of ice on Thu May 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Jopaz wrote:I have been following this thread but not posting until now...a few comments/questions:

- Where does the 40% increase number come from. I have season tickets in the lower bowl, double attack end. These were $76 in the last year at Mellon, then $82 in the first year at CEC, $86 this year, and will be $90 next year. That is barely a total 20% increase over 3 years.

- Some folks seem to be upset at the Student Rush program. How is that hurting anyone? So what if it kept the sellout streak alive? I think it is a great way to let the young fans get to see games that they other wise could not afford.

- I posted this a while back in another thread, but many corporate STH owners do not purchase play off tickets. Companies often use tickets to entertain customers or employees. The play off set-up is not as good for that, since the schedule is not known well in advance, and the more intense atmosphere does not lend itself to business discussions. My neighbor's company has STH for both Pens and Steelers (club seats), and they never buy the playoff package.



Many Many people have had their prices raised over 40%. Mine went from $25 to $45. Luckily I can handle the increase, but the one thing that still stings is there is no way my seats are close to as good as to what I had at the Mellon and the 2nd level at CEC couldn't have been designed more poorly than it was. I have less legroom and the concourses are more crowded between periods for me than they were at Mellon.

I've accepted how it is but that doesn't mean I don't wish i could go to games at the Mellon again and just replace the jumbotron there with the CEC. For the majority of people CEC was an upgrade, for me personally it was not. However, my ticket rep has been amazing in helping me out and after going to a STH breakfast to voice concerns I know that the Pens really do care about our experiences and are trying to improve things all the time. That's really all i can ask for since the building is getting redesigned.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby The Snapshot on Thu May 03, 2012 4:07 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I do disagree that the secondary market has much to do with actual pricing. It's too small of a sample is only based off of demand that there are no tickets or they can get specific seats. By that I mean if the pens tried to charge what the secondary market shows they wouldn't sellout. In the end I think the pens miss out on some money from 500 tickets or so, not 18000, but that goes away,especially this year if there are tickets available on ticketmaster which there have been this year.

The pens are 3rd in the American teams in the NHL in pricing, ahead of Boston and Chicago so it's not all that in line with pricing of new buildings, market and/or team performance. I believe they might have been 1 in American teams in playoff pricing too ahead of even the rangers.


I wasn't saying that they are inching toward what is paid on TicketExchange or StubHub, because you are right that those prices exist in a vacuum of the initial sellout and seat preference for a specific game. What I was saying is that the fact that some people will pay over the ticket price is indicative of slightly more price tolerance in the market.

A solid NHL team that does not sell out is no doubt overpriced for the product and market. That is still clearly not the case for the Pens. To be honest, I never hear fans in any other market whine so much about the price of tickets. That said, I live and work in NJ and I am not really tied into the local economy. I have no idea of the general amount of disposable income people living in the Pittsburgh market have in general. I only know that anonymous folks pay a significant premium for my seats to most game, at a minimum about 30% over my cost and for weekend and giveaway games I got as much as 300% over my cost.

That to me says there is still elasticity in the market.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 03, 2012 4:53 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I do disagree that the secondary market has much to do with actual pricing. It's too small of a sample is only based off of demand that there are no tickets or they can get specific seats. By that I mean if the pens tried to charge what the secondary market shows they wouldn't sellout. In the end I think the pens miss out on some money from 500 tickets or so, not 18000, but that goes away,especially this year if there are tickets available on ticketmaster which there have been this year.

The pens are 3rd in the American teams in the NHL in pricing, ahead of Boston and Chicago so it's not all that in line with pricing of new buildings, market and/or team performance. I believe they might have been 1 in American teams in playoff pricing too ahead of even the rangers.


I wasn't saying that they are inching toward what is paid on TicketExchange or StubHub, because you are right that those prices exist in a vacuum of the initial sellout and seat preference for a specific game. What I was saying is that the fact that some people will pay over the ticket price is indicative of slightly more price tolerance in the market.

A solid NHL team that does not sell out is no doubt overpriced for the product and market. That is still clearly not the case for the Pens. To be honest, I never hear fans in any other market whine so much about the price of tickets. That said, I live and work in NJ and I am not really tied into the local economy. I have no idea of the general amount of disposable income people living in the Pittsburgh market have in general. I only know that anonymous folks pay a significant premium for my seats to most game, at a minimum about 30% over my cost and for weekend and giveaway games I got as much as 300% over my cost.

That to me says there is still elasticity in the market.


To answer a question above and to respond to your post. Nobody is upset that theyndo the student rush program of itself, i love it actually now that it brings life to a usually somewhat dull crowd, what doesnt make sense is jacking up prices an obscene amount and then needing student rush to keep the sellout streak alive.

The past two years are perfect examples of why you don't do this, check out game 7 of last year vs Tampa and this years playoffs. In sports the bottom can drop out, your 2 stars can get hurt or you have a bad year why risk running fans off for a distance chance that you can make more money.

As far as the secondary market I get what you are saying but still think the elasticity is very limited to certain situations and not indicative enough of pricing but that is all a matter of opinion.

Lastly the pens are not clearly selling out or they wouldn't need these other programs or to cut out whiteout shirts to sellout or make money which is the point I'm trying to make.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 03, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 03, 2012 4:58 pm

Jopaz wrote:I have been following this thread but not posting until now...a few comments/questions:

- Where does the 40% increase number come from. I have season tickets in the lower bowl, double attack end. These were $76 in the last year at Mellon, then $82 in the first year at CEC, $86 this year, and will be $90 next year. That is barely a total 20% increase over 3 years.

- Some folks seem to be upset at the Student Rush program. How is that hurting anyone? So what if it kept the sellout streak alive? I think it is a great way to let the young fans get to see games that they other wise could not afford.

- I posted this a while back in another thread, but many corporate STH owners do not purchase play off tickets. Companies often use tickets to entertain customers or employees. The play off set-up is not as good for that, since the schedule is not known well in advance, and the more intense atmosphere does not lend itself to business discussions. My neighbor's company has STH for both Pens and Steelers (club seats), and they never buy the playoff package.


See above for student rush and we can agree to disagree on the corporate aspect of playoff tickets. The year we won the cup my company couldn't get enough tickets starting round 2 regardless of the date. Customers gobble up free pens playoff tickets like crack. I think there may be some instances of what you are talking about but I doubt it's enough to force the penguins to alter their sales plan by offering more packages.

The reason: they have made the playoffs 6 years in a row and never did that before. I highly doubt this was the year that companies decided playoff timing was an issue and the 30% price increase was just a coincidence.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Rylan on Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Should just plant a ticket tree you sillies.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Fire0nice228 on Thu May 03, 2012 5:36 pm

Were the white out shirts not sponsored and thus likely cost the Pens zero dollars?


Maybe the Pens are smart enough to realize that even if their price increases 'drive away' STH, most of you will still watch on tv, still buy merchandise, etc. etc. I doubt very very much that any STH that gives up their tix due to price will instantly say "**** the Pens, I'm never having a single second of my life spent on that team again".


Bottom line, when the team sucks again, the prices will come down. Supply and Demand. This is a business, nothing more. Brand loyalty won't be affected for most people that have to give up their tix due to price. If you really thought/think you should only be paying 25$ to watch a team thats up against the cap, in a brand new building, with a ravenous fanbase wanting tickets, not too mention the 2 best players in the world... come on. If I could get 25 dollar tickets I'd be pissing myself too, but it just doesnt happen for me, and i understand why.

I didnt see the Pens crying and whining when they were only charging 25 bucks for you to watch Fleury,Sid,Geno (and MARIO, and Recchi, and Gonchar,etc!) in the old building, when clearly, watching them was worth more than the 25 bucks on most nights.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 03, 2012 6:50 pm

Fire0nice228 wrote:Were the white out shirts not sponsored and thus likely cost the Pens zero dollars?


Maybe the Pens are smart enough to realize that even if their price increases 'drive away' STH, most of you will still watch on tv, still buy merchandise, etc. etc. I doubt very very much that any STH that gives up their tix due to price will instantly say "**** the Pens, I'm never having a single second of my life spent on that team again".


Bottom line, when the team sucks again, the prices will come down. Supply and Demand. This is a business, nothing more. Brand loyalty won't be affected for most people that have to give up their tix due to price. If you really thought/think you should only be paying 25$ to watch a team thats up against the cap, in a brand new building, with a ravenous fanbase wanting tickets, not too mention the 2 best players in the world... come on. If I could get 25 dollar tickets I'd be pissing myself too, but it just doesnt happen for me, and i understand why.

I didnt see the Pens crying and whining when they were only charging 25 bucks for you to watch Fleury,Sid,Geno (and MARIO, and Recchi, and Gonchar,etc!) in the old building, when clearly, watching them was worth more than the 25 bucks on most nights.


Again not the point. Nobody expects to pay nothing and nobody complianed about recent increases until this year. But 40+ percent overall is insane and 30% in one playoff year is downright laughable putting them as the most expensive tickets in USA nhl playoffs on average.

And if you read through this you would see that yes, it is affecting them based on what has been going on. How you can say that it is still profitable to them to have me cancel and buy a few things is crazy.

And one last time on the white out shirts. If the sponsors were actually covering the entire cost they wouldn't have forced you to the buy them. It makes no sense. If you actually believe they did that for charity then you are drinking koolaid.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Rylan on Thu May 03, 2012 7:07 pm

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby ulf on Thu May 03, 2012 7:22 pm

man, the pens have 230 whatever straight sellouts, and a waiting list thousands deep? what terrible businessmen
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby ulf on Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote: How you can say that it is still profitable to them to have me cancel and buy a few things is crazy.

because someone else will buy your tickets. Do you think they care if the X thousand dollars comes from your pocket or Joe's?
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby novapen on Thu May 03, 2012 7:50 pm

If Malkin ends up on the cover of NHL13, do the Pens get royalties?
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 03, 2012 8:05 pm

Rylan wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Spoiler:
Image
Last edited by MRandall25 on Fri May 04, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Factorial on Thu May 03, 2012 8:31 pm

Sound like the Pens are nearing the equilibrium pricing point for tickets. When all tickets are sold and no one is on the waiting list.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Thu May 03, 2012 9:16 pm

Factorial wrote:Sound like the Pens are nearing the equilibrium pricing point for tickets. When all tickets are sold and no one is on the waiting list.



or is it the equilibrium pricing point where people can no longer make a profit by re-selling tickets?
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby offsides on Thu May 03, 2012 10:02 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
Factorial wrote:Sound like the Pens are nearing the equilibrium pricing point for tickets. When all tickets are sold and no one is on the waiting list.



or is it the equilibrium pricing point where people can no longer make a profit by re-selling tickets?


I know someone who has had season tickets for 8 years. He goes to about 5 games a year and makes a good profit on the rest of them. :pop:
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby C4 Row E on Thu May 03, 2012 10:04 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
Factorial wrote:Sound like the Pens are nearing the equilibrium pricing point for tickets. When all tickets are sold and no one is on the waiting list.



or is it the equilibrium pricing point where people can no longer make a profit by re-selling tickets?


At this point, I'm not even concerned about making too much of a profit. Sometimes it's hard to get rid of a random week night game for $73 per ticket face value.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby moondart on Thu May 03, 2012 10:19 pm

MRandall25 wrote:I wouldn't say having Crosby and Malkin in their respective primes is "watering down the lemonade"


Yes it is...because their costs were "fixed" at 8.7 million as is the rest of the "cost certainty" with the salary cap. Its not like their salaries are going up 40% over the 3 years. Now, mind you, the Pens should prepare for the uptick. But, as we have said, a 2-3% yearly increase in the cap would not account for a 40% increase in ticket prices.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby moondart on Thu May 03, 2012 10:25 pm

Also, lets be honest guys/gals: Either the Pens misjudged their revenue, or they calculated correctly that the media/Koolaide drinking fans wouldn't make a big fuss over tickets even though they raised them by 40% knowing full well that they were also getting other revenue streams.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Froggy on Thu May 03, 2012 10:58 pm

Are you being sponsored by kool aid, or something?
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby columbia on Thu May 03, 2012 11:05 pm

moondart wrote:Also, lets be honest guys/gals: Either the Pens misjudged their revenue, or they calculated correctly that the media/Koolaide drinking fans wouldn't make a big fuss over tickets even though they raised them by 40% knowing full well that they were also getting other revenue streams.


moondart: You charge too much.
Penguins: We're comfortable with our current price structure and the associated product.
moondart: If you don't stop raising the prices, I'll stop buying tickets.
Penguins: Next.

I'm not sure what you want people to say. You're clearly dissatisfied with the product you are consuming, at the going rates.
That happens...it's capitalism.
The rational response is to walk away and buy a 50" TV, like the rest of us in the proletariat.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby offsides on Thu May 03, 2012 11:39 pm

columbia wrote:
moondart wrote:Also, lets be honest guys/gals: Either the Pens misjudged their revenue, or they calculated correctly that the media/Koolaide drinking fans wouldn't make a big fuss over tickets even though they raised them by 40% knowing full well that they were also getting other revenue streams.


moondart: You charge too much.
Penguins: We're comfortable with our current price structure and the associated product.
moondart: If you don't stop raising the prices, I'll stop buying tickets.
Penguins: Next.

I'm not sure what you want people to say. You're clearly dissatisfied with the product you are consuming, at the going rates.
That happens...it's capitalism.
The rational response is to walk away and buy a 50" TV, like the rest of us in the proletariat.


I got a 70", (bad eyes), at least that is what I told my wife.
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby columbia on Thu May 03, 2012 11:45 pm

That's a good strategy. :pop:
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Re: How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase

Postby Batman21 on Thu May 03, 2012 11:51 pm

knives of ice wrote:
I've accepted how it is but that doesn't mean I don't wish i could go to games at the Mellon again and just replace the jumbotron there with the CEC. For the majority of people CEC was an upgrade, for me personally it was not. However, my ticket rep has been amazing in helping me out and after going to a STH breakfast to voice concerns I know that the Pens really do care about our experiences and are trying to improve things all the time. That's really all i can ask for since the building is getting redesigned.


interesting - what did they specifically say is going to be redesigned?
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