How do Pens think fans swallow another 10% tix increase now?

[Patton]

So little to say, so much time...strike that, reverse it. Seems there's a lot of people making the "Wow, this crap has gotten expensive, not that it impacts me because I have money but I could see how it could impact lesser people" argument. Let's say it like it is: this crap's starting to get expensive and a lot of us are finding it hard to afford tickets anymore. Hell, to me hockey has always seemed outlandishly expensive to go to as a single beer loving guy, I don't even want to think about ever taking a family to a game in the future. If only the Pens could be more like the Pirates so we could all go to games and buy $7 bleacher seats...

Ok, that was a cheap shot, but there are a few things that I think are being overlooked. Let's start with the notion of ticket prices going up while the evil front office is watering down the product... this lemonade stand analogy is so far off base I don't even know where to start. The Pens have spent to the cap almost every year in the recent past, no? So what you're saying is that they are intentionally paying WORSE players the same amount of money that they would be paying anyways, since they are spending as much money as they are legally allowed to? How does that make any sense at all? If they're spending to the cap, they're spending to the cap, they're not watering anything down. What you described is what the Pirates did after getting the tax payers to buy them a new stadium, and then figuring out how to be more profitable by losing than by winning. The fact that some of the player signings haven't produced the on ice result that any of us want, doesn't have anything to do with watering the product down via corner cutting or nefarious profit mongering, it has to do with the fact that the organic triple filtered fountain of youth glacier fed spring water that the pens spent big money on to play defense ended up being mexican piss in a bottle, and consequently the lemonade tastes like Corona....mmm....beer...

I'm going to throw you a curve ball here before I get to my main point, but I think the quality of watching hockey on TV thanks to HDTV, coupled with the cost at which these TVs can now be obtained, plus all of the playoff games being carried nationwide may have more to do with the playoff tickets being more readily available than before. People are now less likely to deal with the hassle of going to the games or coming into town for the games when they can basically sit next to crosby
and malkin on the bench, crap in the privacy of their own home, and not have to worry about driving home after drinking a case of beer now that the puck can be viewed as the size of a dinner plate flying across the living room on a 70 inch tv for less than 2500 dollars. Does that support the idea of higher ticket prices? No, but it does when you couple it with this...

...it's the economy, stupid! (not directed at anyone, just like the saying) Sh*t costs money. Spending to the cap costs A LOT of money. 40% more money than last year? Nope. But...unless you work in the finance office and have insight we don't, do any of us know how the Pens are doing other than in ticket sales? Now that they aren't reigning Stanley Cup champs, are they getting as much for the advertising on the boards, the ads in the program, the short video clips no one watches on the jumbotron? Well, seeing as damn near no one has the money to do much of anything these days, I'm guessing they may have had to lower some of their advertising fees, and are passing that cost onto the ticketholders because there is still an excess of demand for the tickets, so they can. Even if advertisements aren't becoming harder to move, I'd bet that those ads are multiyear deals, so they can't just hike the prices on them. Obviously that's an example I can't prove, but I'm just using it as an example of things that I doubt any of us think of as reasons for ticket price increasing. As many people pointed out, the white out shirts are usually paid for by sponsors, but maybe they had trouble getting all the necessary sponsors throughout the year, or maybe the sponsors were tapped out. At $2 a shirt, maybe 84 Lumber finally had to make the decision between sponsoring white out shirts or cutting $40,000 worth of salary somewhere, since the housing market blows and no one's buying lumber to build right now. Hell, even little things like the cost of fuel being so high raising the travel expenses for the team to get to and from games could be why the prices went up. Again, these are all hypotheticals, but are scenarios that I think are being overlooked in favor of "The Pens are screwing us for the sake of screwing us, argh!" Until they stop having people on the waiting list and until they truly have trouble moving the tickets, it's pretty much the most logical place for them to try to recoup their costs. Whether it's Joe steel worker who just got off his shift at the Edger Thomson works, snagged a battleship at the triangle, and then threw down the $100 to go to the game, or it's Biff Bifferson in his BMW, they are still getting the $100. Sucks, I didn't say it didn't, but it's the cost of doing business. Do any of us know how Burkle's portfolio has been doing lately? Yeah, the man is worth over 3 BILLION, but maybe he's taken some hits and doesn't feel like hemorrhaging money via his hobby of owning the Pens. What also sucks is that, unlike most goods like TVs and computers, where you can now buy a 60 inch tv for the cost of a 27 inch 5 years ago, you can't exactly ship the production of good hockey players to china so that we get a comparable product for a fraction of the cost over time. The cost of the goods on the ice are going no where but up for the owners. Tack on 3-4% real inflation for the dollar year to year, and maybe 10% isn't all that unreasonable.

One last point I want to address is the student rush tickets being indicative of demand for tickets...every event holds back tickets until the last second before they sell them. That's so if Seal Team 6 wanted to come to a Pens game after tagging OBL, the Pens have the ability to do that. In addition to this, the Pens, like any good company, are willing to give away product to people in hopes of producing a fan who, even if they can't afford tickets in the future, might buy a shirt or watch the game on TV. At the very least they probably buy more beer, and certainly up the energy of the crowd.Using your logic, the only reason I used to see hot chicks on campus giving out redbull every year was because redbull had too much inventory they couldn't move. Considering most people I know still may as well have an IV of it connected to them, even when they are paying for it, I'm guessing that's not the case. I also have a long running suspicion that every sports venue either sells more seats than they have, or marks their max capacity lower than the amount of seats they actually have, so a "sellout" might happen at the maximum listed seats of 18,000, but in actuality there are those extra 200 seats that don't count. That may just come from years of going to Michigan football games, which didn't sell standing room only tickets, and continuously being in the record setting crowd for the MICH/OSU game of over 113,000 when the capacity is listed as 107,000...but I digress.

But yeah, I see how you think it sucks, it does suck, but your only real recourse is to speak with your wallet, and even then you probably won't be heard for a long while. Eventually you will, because this isn't the super bowl or the yankees that can survive on corporate sales alone, but as fiercely loyal as we are as a fan base, it's going to take time.

[sil]

this thread has to have the highest % of words per post of any in LGP

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

So little to say, so much time...strike that, reverse it. Seems there's a lot of people making the "Wow, this crap has gotten expensive, not that it impacts me because I have money but I could see how it could impact lesser people" argument. Let's say it like it is: this crap's starting to get expensive and a lot of us are finding it hard to afford tickets anymore. Hell, to me hockey has always seemed outlandishly expensive to go to as a single beer loving guy, I don't even want to think about ever taking a family to a game in the future. If only the Pens could be more like the Pirates so we could all go to games and buy $7 bleacher seats...

Ok, that was a cheap shot, but there are a few things that I think are being overlooked. Let's start with the notion of ticket prices going up while the evil front office is watering down the product... this lemonade stand analogy is so far off base I don't even know where to start. The Pens have spent to the cap almost every year in the recent past, no? So what you're saying is that they are intentionally paying WORSE players the same amount of money that they would be paying anyways, since they are spending as much money as they are legally allowed to? How does that make any sense at all? If they're spending to the cap, they're spending to the cap, they're not watering anything down. What you described is what the Pirates did after getting the tax payers to buy them a new stadium, and then figuring out how to be more profitable by losing than by winning. The fact that some of the player signings haven't produced the on ice result that any of us want, doesn't have anything to do with watering the product down via corner cutting or nefarious profit mongering, it has to do with the fact that the organic triple filtered fountain of youth glacier fed spring water that the pens spent big money on to play defense ended up being mexican piss in a bottle, and consequently the lemonade tastes like Corona....mmm....beer...

I'm going to throw you a curve ball here before I get to my main point, but I think the quality of watching hockey on TV thanks to HDTV, coupled with the cost at which these TVs can now be obtained, plus all of the playoff games being carried nationwide may have more to do with the playoff tickets being more readily available than before. People are now less likely to deal with the hassle of going to the games or coming into town for the games when they can basically sit next to crosby
and malkin on the bench, crap in the privacy of their own home, and not have to worry about driving home after drinking a case of beer now that the puck can be viewed as the size of a dinner plate flying across the living room on a 70 inch tv for less than 2500 dollars. Does that support the idea of higher ticket prices? No, but it does when you couple it with this...

...it's the economy, stupid! (not directed at anyone, just like the saying) Sh*t costs money. Spending to the cap costs A LOT of money. 40% more money than last year? Nope. But...unless you work in the finance office and have insight we don't, do any of us know how the Pens are doing other than in ticket sales? Now that they aren't reigning Stanley Cup champs, are they getting as much for the advertising on the boards, the ads in the program, the short video clips no one watches on the jumbotron? Well, seeing as damn near no one has the money to do much of anything these days, I'm guessing they may have had to lower some of their advertising fees, and are passing that cost onto the ticketholders because there is still an excess of demand for the tickets, so they can. Even if advertisements aren't becoming harder to move, I'd bet that those ads are multiyear deals, so they can't just hike the prices on them. Obviously that's an example I can't prove, but I'm just using it as an example of things that I doubt any of us think of as reasons for ticket price increasing. As many people pointed out, the white out shirts are usually paid for by sponsors, but maybe they had trouble getting all the necessary sponsors throughout the year, or maybe the sponsors were tapped out. At $2 a shirt, maybe 84 Lumber finally had to make the decision between sponsoring white out shirts or cutting $40,000 worth of salary somewhere, since the housing market blows and no one's buying lumber to build right now. Hell, even little things like the cost of fuel being so high raising the travel expenses for the team to get to and from games could be why the prices went up. Again, these are all hypotheticals, but are scenarios that I think are being overlooked in favor of "The Pens are screwing us for the sake of screwing us, argh!" Until they stop having people on the waiting list and until they truly have trouble moving the tickets, it's pretty much the most logical place for them to try to recoup their costs. Whether it's Joe steel worker who just got off his shift at the Edger Thomson works, snagged a battleship at the triangle, and then threw down the $100 to go to the game, or it's Biff Bifferson in his BMW, they are still getting the $100. Sucks, I didn't say it didn't, but it's the cost of doing business. Do any of us know how Burkle's portfolio has been doing lately? Yeah, the man is worth over 3 BILLION, but maybe he's taken some hits and doesn't feel like hemorrhaging money via his hobby of owning the Pens. What also sucks is that, unlike most goods like TVs and computers, where you can now buy a 60 inch tv for the cost of a 27 inch 5 years ago, you can't exactly ship the production of good hockey players to china so that we get a comparable product for a fraction of the cost over time. The cost of the goods on the ice are going no where but up for the owners. Tack on 3-4% real inflation for the dollar year to year, and maybe 10% isn't all that unreasonable.

One last point I want to address is the student rush tickets being indicative of demand for tickets...every event holds back tickets until the last second before they sell them. That's so if Seal Team 6 wanted to come to a Pens game after tagging OBL, the Pens have the ability to do that. In addition to this, the Pens, like any good company, are willing to give away product to people in hopes of producing a fan who, even if they can't afford tickets in the future, might buy a shirt or watch the game on TV. At the very least they probably buy more beer, and certainly up the energy of the crowd.Using your logic, the only reason I used to see hot chicks on campus giving out redbull every year was because redbull had too much inventory they couldn't move. Considering most people I know still may as well have an IV of it connected to them, even when they are paying for it, I'm guessing that's not the case. I also have a long running suspicion that every sports venue either sells more seats than they have, or marks their max capacity lower than the amount of seats they actually have, so a "sellout" might happen at the maximum listed seats of 18,000, but in actuality there are those extra 200 seats that don't count. That may just come from years of going to Michigan football games, which didn't sell standing room only tickets, and continuously being in the record setting crowd for the MICH/OSU game of over 113,000 when the capacity is listed as 107,000...but I digress.

But yeah, I see how you think it sucks, it does suck, but your only real recourse is to speak with your wallet, and even then you probably won't be heard for a long while. Eventually you will, because this isn't the super bowl or the yankees that can survive on corporate sales alone, but as fiercely loyal as we are as a fan base, it's going to take time.

You put a lot in there and I can't address them all so just a few points that everyone is missing:

1. The issue with the price increases of 40 and 30% for playoffs alone is that they were profitable in the last season in Mellon. They added 2000 seats, increased prices a good amount, got piles of new money coming in from the new arena deals .......and the rent and cap went up too but not nearly the percentage of their revenue back. Do a quick excel sheet of 40% increaes, 2000 tickets per game and a few dollars per fan for food plus all the money they make from concerts, concerts food sales, parking and on and on. It's gross profit while running off fans, it's bad business as noted by their cancels.

The point is they have pushed past the limit on pricing to a point that people were canceling their playoffs. Everyone keeps claiming wait list but its only 4000 deep or so and we have already proven that most of those people can't afford or won't take season tickets. The penguins tried to make a huge profit at the expense of long term sustainability and it failed miserably.

This has nothing to do with charging small amounts and putting a crappy product on the ice and becoming the pirates. The pens were fine financially 3 years ago and have turned into greedy scumbags and it's affecting them but nobody wants to admit it.

Again and for the last time: the cheap tickets and we will suck argument makes no sense since they were making money 3 years ago and spending to the cap. I defended their prices up until last year when I could see what everyone does not want to.

2. Again student rush, holding back tickets and other things. Nobody is arguing the marketing validity of the programs and everyone understands why some tickets come available, it even happens for the steelers. BUT when 2000 or 3000 tickets are available the morning of a game and it sells out its frustrating as a paying customer for years because we know that when they didn't go insane with prices they sold out, held enough back for students, had a few for community programs and it was a good experience and made sense for all involved.

Now it's just the penguins spending all of their time trying to fool us that it's like it was 2 years ago so we are ok with price increases when in reality if they would have just down moderate increases it would have been fine and they would probably make more money selling all $120 tickets instead of not selling $200 tickets and resorting to selling them for $30 or whatever student rush is.

So please no more replies about becoming the pirates, needs for spending to the cap, why there are playoff cancels, and how cool student rush is. It's either be to avoid the reality or it's missing the point and I can't be more clear on why.

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

And finally on the white out shirts. It's just poor business sense to raise prices 30% in one year and cut out something that they are promoting and asking for. It's just stupid. I could care less about the shirts but am insulted. Let's assume you are right and sponsors bailed. So what, raise my prices 31% and include a shirt so you don't look like scumbags. It's how business works.

Every other team that wants a thirst color gives them out the pens raised prices and took them away yet people are defending them.

Imagine any other business asking something of you as a customer and then saying well you have to buy it, BUT we will give the profits to charity. I'm not stupid.

[czwalga]

And finally on the white out shirts. It's just poor business sense to raise prices 30% in one year and cut out something that they are promoting and asking for. It's just stupid. I could care less about the shirts but am insulted. Let's assume you are right and sponsors bailed. So what, raise my prices 31% and include a shirt so you don't look like scumbags. It's how business works.

Every other team that wants a thirst color gives them out the pens raised prices and took them away yet people are defending them.

Imagine any other business asking something of you as a customer and then saying well you have to buy it, BUT we will give the profits to charity. I'm not stupid.

How about you just give up your tickets?

[knives of ice]

I've accepted how it is but that doesn't mean I don't wish i could go to games at the Mellon again and just replace the jumbotron there with the CEC. For the majority of people CEC was an upgrade, for me personally it was not. However, my ticket rep has been amazing in helping me out and after going to a STH breakfast to voice concerns I know that the Pens really do care about our experiences and are trying to improve things all the time. That's really all i can ask for since the building is getting redesigned.

interesting - what did they specifically say is going to be redesigned?

woops... i forgot the NOT GETTING REDESIGNED. thats a pretty big word to miss in the sentence.

[knives of ice]

@BurghersAndDogsSports

concerning student rush and ticket prices i can confirm a few of your theories from the STH breakfast. People complained that they can't set any price they want to on the ticket exchange - many don't know STH's are forced to sell their tickets for a minimum on there that is after fees more expensive than what the pens are selling them for in most cases. The head of ticketing told us that they thought about changing this but if they did it will hurt the penguins selling tickets he said that they have had some trouble selling tickets to games during the week - at this time we were early in the season. There is no doubt that there are so games that a ton of student rush tickets were sold, or games that many tickets were donated in addition to student rush.

I have no problem with them doing either, but i do think it sucks we can't set any price we want on ticket exchange ourselves. it forces people to sell other places if they can't attend a game.

[raewhit]

Imagine any other business asking something of you as a customer and then saying well you have to buy it, BUT we will give the profits to charity. I'm not stupid

What??? Businesses esp. retailers do this all the time. I equate it to stores that offer free gift wrap all year and during the holidays they invite charitable orgs. in to do the gift wrapping & those orgs. ask for donations. Some customers would be angry(ugh) & others were happy to have their packages wrapped and donate to a charity. You are the former obviously!

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

Imagine any other business asking something of you as a customer and then saying well you have to buy it, BUT we will give the profits to charity. I'm not stupid

What??? Businesses esp. retailers do this all the time. I equate it to stores that offer free gift wrap all year and during the holidays they invite charitable orgs. in to do the gift wrapping & those orgs. ask for donations. Some customers would be angry(ugh) & others were happy to have their packages wrapped and donate to a charity. You are the former obviously!

I'm sorry but if you can't see the difference between the penguins asking for a white out while not giving you tshirts that they used to....so the can save money and saving face by not profiting vs a store offering a service for a donation then I can't help you. Btw the stores simply let a charity come in do this it's not them.

A more equal comparison would be McDonald's making you pay for the toy in your happy meal but giving the money to charity.

[raewhit]

Imagine any other business asking something of you as a customer and then saying well you have to buy it, BUT we will give the profits to charity. I'm not stupid

What??? Businesses esp. retailers do this all the time. I equate it to stores that offer free gift wrap all year and during the holidays they invite charitable orgs. in to do the gift wrapping & those orgs. ask for donations. Some customers would be angry(ugh) & others were happy to have their packages wrapped and donate to a charity. You are the former obviously!

I'm sorry but if you can't see the difference between the penguins asking for a white out while not giving you tshirts that they used to....so the can save money and saving face by not profiting vs a store offering a service for a donation then I can't help you. Btw the stores simply let a charity come in do this it's not them.

A more equal comparison would be McDonald's making you pay for the toy in your happy meal but giving the money to charity.

I was making an analogy where something that used to be free no longer is- hence my comparison.
I know this has been hashed over ad nauseum but the t-shirts and other promo items are paid for by sponsors- no savings for the Pens.
You are really making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Fire0nice228]

I thought I read that the Pens barely finished in the black on the mythical excel sheet last season after trading for Kovalev?

You guys remember him right? Mario/Burkle bit the bullet and paid him a few MILLION dollars out of their pocket while already being at the CAP limit due to Sid/Geno injuries and such... Oh wait, theres a salary cap so their costs are fixed and anything over a 4% ticket increase is totally **** the season ticket holders, I forgot..

Where do you think the money came from that gave the Penguins the ability to do THAT?

You guys are ridiculous. Any tickets you want to sell me @ your cost next season, please, please, hit me up.

[Batman21]

I've accepted how it is but that doesn't mean I don't wish i could go to games at the Mellon again and just replace the jumbotron there with the CEC. For the majority of people CEC was an upgrade, for me personally it was not. However, my ticket rep has been amazing in helping me out and after going to a STH breakfast to voice concerns I know that the Pens really do care about our experiences and are trying to improve things all the time. That's really all i can ask for since the building is getting redesigned.

interesting - what did they specifically say is going to be redesigned?

woops... i forgot the NOT GETTING REDESIGNED. thats a pretty big word to miss in the sentence.

lol

[Why Not Us]

My solution to the ticket increase was requesting to be relocated to the Upper Bowl Single Attack Endzone. Hopefully somebody else can enjoy "HIT! SOME! BODY!" and "Get it outta there boys!!!!!!!" all game long in 214.

[Corvidae]

Wah! Wah! I have disposable income and an entitlement problem! Wah!

[Rylan]

Wah! Wah! I have disposable income and an entitlement problem! Wah!

lolol

[steve784]

My solution to the ticket increase was requesting to be relocated to the Upper Bowl Single Attack Endzone. Hopefully somebody else can enjoy "HIT! SOME! BODY!" and "Get it outta there boys!!!!!!!" all game long in 214.

BURRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY THE BISCUIT

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

Wah! Wah! I have disposable income and an entitlement problem! Wah!

If thats what you think this is about then you havent read the thread or understand the point or attended any games this year.

And to reply above for the last time on the white out shirts, if they were sponsored to the full extent and this wasnt about saving money why would the Penguins send them to dicks for purchase? To make sure a charity gets $5,000? For S...ts and giggles? That makes zero sense. Actually 100000000 times less sense then not giving them away to simply save money.

[raewhit]

Wah! Wah! I have disposable income and an entitlement problem! Wah!

If thats what you think this is about then you havent read the thread or understand the point or attended any games this year.

And to reply above for the last time on the white out shirts, if they were sponsored to the full extent and this wasnt about saving money why would the Penguins send them to dicks for purchase? To make sure a charity gets $5,000? For S...ts and giggles? That makes zero sense. Actually 100000000 times less sense then not giving them away to simply save money.

Who knows and and who really cares. Businesses make partnerships all the time- that may have been part of some partnership agreement with Dicks and/or the charity.

[MRandall25]

The fact that whiteout t-shirts have been your biggest complaint speaks bounds.

[moondart]

Wah! Wah! I have disposable income and an entitlement problem! Wah!

If thats what you think this is about then you havent read the thread or understand the point or attended any games this year.

That's why I say there must be a lot of kids on this board...instead of debating points, they do one of the following:

1. Say don't go if you can't afford the tickets (like that was even the argument).

2. Say this is a "free market" (again, not the main point).

3. Say we need the 40% increases to "afford" our star players (refuted via logic above).

4. Mainly, still don't get its a "principles" issue that pisses STH off more than the money itself (again explained by me ad nausem earlier).

[Idoit40fans]

I still have yet to understand how people that wouldn't pay half the cost of tickets to see the games when the pens were losing are going to pay for those tickets now. I'd be curious to see how many of the people who come up to the front of the waiting list line end up actually getting tickets.

[The Snapshot]

I hate when people quote Corvidae who is on my ignore list....

[bhaw]

You don't like the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument because it's simple and straight forward. By discounting that argument, all you are saying is that you want to complain and hang it on "principals." If you had your own principals, you would stop buying your tickets and watch from home. Clearly the price hikes are merely a mild annoyance at this point, and not a true point of disgust as you (general you to those saying it) claim.

FYI, I'm not a kid... I can easily say that you are a "kid" because instead of facing reality, all you want to do is belabor on about "principals" that aren't really principals. If my cable company hiked up my monthly bill 30%, and I thought it was that big of an issue, I'd cancel. If I just want to complain that it should be cheaper, it's just that... complaining.

But please, continue to discount the most logical argument because you can't respond to it and call everyone "kids" instead. That is the equivalent of "you never played hockey, so you can't possibly understand" retort.

[Rylan]

You don't like the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument because it's simple and straight forward. By discounting that argument, all you are saying is that you want to complain and hang it on "principals." If you had your own principals, you would stop buying your tickets and watch from home. Clearly the price hikes are merely a mild annoyance at this point, and not a true point of disgust as you (general you to those saying it) claim.

FYI, I'm not a kid... I can easily say that you are a "kid" because instead of facing reality, all you want to do is belabor on about "principals" that aren't really principals. If my cable company hiked up my monthly bill 30%, and I thought it was that big of an issue, I'd cancel. If I just want to complain that it should be cheaper, it's just that... complaining.

But please, continue to discount the most logical argument because you can't respond to it and call everyone "kids" instead. That is the equivalent of "you never played hockey, so you can't possibly understand" retort.

[bhaw]

I hate when people quote Corvidae who is on my ignore list....

What has Corvidae ever said of any substance to elicit foe'ing?