Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

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Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:53 pm

Pure hypothetical in this thread. If you can't handle that, you don't have to discuss it.

In this thread, discuss your preferences for personnel moves for the Penguins existing roster, especially guys who may be on their way out. Bonus points for justification of your opinion. By "dump" I mean "trade, demote, don't re-sign, buy out if the CBA lets us".

Crosby-

Keep - He's Sidney Crosby. At his best there's no player in the league that can produce like he can. King of the grinders. Makes the players around him better. A leader. Best playmaker they have.
Dump - Health is a concern. His performances in the playoffs have been big hits or curious misses. Probably deserves and will get a raise based on known potential alone, and that's a lot of cap money on a guy who's "one hit away". (No, I don't buy that as a negative, but it is being discussed). Why did the team hit a speed bump defensively when he came back?

Verdict: KEEP

Malkin-

Keep- Likely reigning Hart Trophy winner, so would we really want to trade him with a trophy in his hand? Goes through times when he's scarily unstoppable. Big guy with moves out of the Matrix. Best goal scorer they have, probably the second best shot. This was his first healthy year in a while and he didn't disappoint.
Dump - Can be all but neutralized by mental games, which a lot of rivals have figured out. Is he equal to Crosby, and will he take money equal to Crosby or more? Starting (or finishing) to get a reputation for running around and dirty play. His potential salary is going to be vast, and it's still not entirely clear which Malkin will be around for the coming years.

Verdict: DUMP, but only for a top defenseman.

Staal-

Keep- Even with a raise will be cheaper than the other guys. Big guy with power moves and underrated shot. Will give you 60 points and be very defensively responsible, borderline Selke level. Still improving every season. Plays 20+ minutes a game, which you're not going to get from other 3rd line centers out there. Could be a second line center (or even a first).
Dump- He's not named Crosby or Malkin. Not a terribly good playmaker for a center. He'll need upgrades at wing if he's staying and one of the others goes, which is a lot of roster turnover.

Verdict: KEEP. He's got a unique skill set that I'm not sure the Penguins can easily replace.

Neal-

Keep- Most productive season by a Penguins winger since Jaromir Jagr. 40 goals for 5 million bucks. Yes please.
Dump- Still has some lingering inconsistency.

Verdict: KEEP. They just signed him. 40 goals. Again, 40 goals.

Dupuis-

Keep- 17 game scoring streak. Jack of all trades.
Dump- Getting older. We won't have to hear "Thaaaanks Daaaaaan" or "*Pizza* you Geno".

Verdict: KEEP. I can't think of another utility man who can do his job.

Sullivan-

Keep- Managed to make the power play 6th in the league practically all by his lonesome. Had a nice season dollar for dollar.
Dump- Getting way older. Due for a catastrophic injury.

Verdict: DUMP, unless he'll take a similar salary.

Kunitz-

Keep- Plays the role of the 3rd forward on his line to a T. Crosby likes him. Can change a game around with physical play.
Dump- Probably won't be anything but the 3rd forward on his line. Can change a game for the worse with physical play.

Verdict: weak KEEP. Kind of hard to get rid of him, and he does hypothetically play a Penguin style.

Cooke-

Keep- Reprogrammed the cheap shot center of his brain into a scoring touch. Can fill in on a scoring line.
Dump- Has a reputation that will never die. Won't stick on a scoring line.

Verdict: DUMP, although easier said than done.

Kennedy-

Keep- Has stepped up when called upon the last two years. Dollar for dollar he's actually pretty good. Never met a shot he couldn't take.
Dump- Has killed more jersey logos than anyone else in the league. Never met a shot he couldn't take. The coaches don't fully trust him which limits his minutes and opportunities.

Verdict: KEEP. Not sure there's a better option out there for the price.

I don't care about the 4th liners.


Again...ALL HYPOTHETICAL.

Copy and paste to save keystrokes:


Player-

Keep-
Dump-

Verdict:
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby slappybrown on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:02 pm

If I had to trade one of Crosby or Malkin -- neither of whom I would trade to be clear -- it'd be Crosby because of the concussions.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Abe Frohman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:03 pm

Three Stars wrote:Pure hypothetical in this thread. If you can't handle that, you don't have to discuss it.

In this thread, discuss your preferences for personnel moves for the Penguins existing roster, especially guys who may be on their way out. Bonus points for justification of your opinion. By "dump" I mean "trade, demote, don't re-sign, buy out if the CBA lets us".

Crosby-

Keep - He's Sidney Crosby. At his best there's no player in the league that can produce like he can. King of the grinders. Makes the players around him better. A leader. Best playmaker they have.
Dump - Health is a concern. His performances in the playoffs have been big hits or curious misses. Probably deserves and will get a raise based on known potential alone, and that's a lot of cap money on a guy who's "one hit away". (No, I don't buy that as a negative, but it is being discussed). Why did the team hit a speed bump defensively when he came back?

Verdict: KEEP

Malkin-

Keep- Likely reigning Hart Trophy winner, so would we really want to trade him with a trophy in his hand? Goes through times when he's scarily unstoppable. Big guy with moves out of the Matrix. Best goal scorer they have, probably the second best shot. This was his first healthy year in a while and he didn't disappoint.
Dump - Can be all but neutralized by mental games, which a lot of rivals have figured out. Is he equal to Crosby, and will he take money equal to Crosby or more? Starting (or finishing) to get a reputation for running around and dirty play. His potential salary is going to be vast, and it's still not entirely clear which Malkin will be around for the coming years.

Verdict: DUMP, but only for a top defenseman.

Staal-

Keep- Even with a raise will be cheaper than the other guys. Big guy with power moves and underrated shot. Will give you 60 points and be very defensively responsible, borderline Selke level. Still improving every season. Plays 20+ minutes a game, which you're not going to get from other 3rd line centers out there. Could be a second line center (or even a first).
Dump- He's not named Crosby or Malkin. Not a terribly good playmaker for a center. He'll need upgrades at wing if he's staying and one of the others goes, which is a lot of roster turnover.

Verdict: KEEP. He's got a unique skill set that I'm not sure the Penguins can easily replace.

Neal-

Keep- Most productive season by a Penguins winger since Jaromir Jagr. 40 goals for 5 million bucks. Yes please.
Dump- Still has some lingering inconsistency.

Verdict: KEEP. They just signed him. 40 goals. Again, 40 goals.

Dupuis-

Keep- 17 game scoring streak. Jack of all trades.
Dump- Getting older. We won't have to hear "Thaaaanks Daaaaaan" or "*Pizza* you Geno".

Verdict: KEEP. I can't think of another utility man who can do his job.

Sullivan-

Keep- Managed to make the power play 6th in the league practically all by his lonesome. Had a nice season dollar for dollar.
Dump- Getting way older. Due for a catastrophic injury.

Verdict: DUMP, unless he'll take a similar salary.

Kunitz-

Keep- Plays the role of the 3rd forward on his line to a T. Crosby likes him. Can change a game around with physical play.
Dump- Probably won't be anything but the 3rd forward on his line. Can change a game for the worse with physical play.

Verdict: weak KEEP. Kind of hard to get rid of him, and he does hypothetically play a Penguin style.

Cooke-

Keep- Reprogrammed the cheap shot center of his brain into a scoring touch. Can fill in on a scoring line.
Dump- Has a reputation that will never die. Won't stick on a scoring line.

Verdict: DUMP, although easier said than done.

Kennedy-

Keep- Has stepped up when called upon the last two years. Dollar for dollar he's actually pretty good. Never met a shot he couldn't take.
Dump- Has killed more jersey logos than anyone else in the league. Never met a shot he couldn't take. The coaches don't fully trust him which limits his minutes and opportunities.

Verdict: KEEP. Not sure there's a better option out there for the price.

I don't care about the 4th liners.


Again...ALL HYPOTHETICAL.

Copy and paste to save keystrokes:


Player-

Keep-
Dump-

Verdict:


OK...

You are keeping Crosby (and his health concerns) but dumping the reigning Hart Trophy winner...who plays a better game (and gets the Pens into the playoffs) without our 'star' sitting in the owner's box for the past 1.5 years?

Wow...

So after dealing Malkin AND having Crosby suffer yet another concussion (and subsequentally retiring early), you will be happy with Staal as your top center...and nobody else behind him? Welcome to Columbus (without the talent of Nash)...

THAT is a gamble I would never take.

I would (instead) keep Crosby (if we must, and I know the organization will never trade him) and Malkin and trade Staal...
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Kovy27 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Abe Frohman wrote:OK...

You are keeping Crosby (and his health concerns) but dumping the reigning Hart Trophy winner...who plays a better game (and gets the Pens into the playoffs) without our 'star' sitting in the owner's box for the past 1.5 years?

Wow...

So after dealing Malkin AND having Crosby suffer yet another concussion (and subsequentally retiring early), you will be happy with Staal as your top center...and nobody else behind him? Welcome to Columbus (without the talent of Nash)...

THAT is a gamble I would never take.

I would (instead) keep Crosby (if we must, and I know the organization will never trade him) and Malkin and trade Staal...


You don't say...I'm in complete shock that you want to trade Crosby.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby slappybrown on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:05 pm

TEH RUSSIAN CONCUSSION
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby IanMoran on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:07 pm

Three Stars wrote:
Malkin-

Keep- Likely reigning Hart Trophy winner, so would we really want to trade him with a trophy in his hand? Goes through times when he's scarily unstoppable. Big guy with moves out of the Matrix. Best goal scorer they have, probably the second best shot. This was his first healthy year in a while and he didn't disappoint.
Dump - Can be all but neutralized by mental games, which a lot of rivals have figured out. Is he equal to Crosby, and will he take money equal to Crosby or more? Starting (or finishing) to get a reputation for running around and dirty play. His potential salary is going to be vast, and it's still not entirely clear which Malkin will be around for the coming years.

Verdict: DUMP, but only for a top defenseman.


Stopped reading lol
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Fast B on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:07 pm

Three Stars wrote:Crosby-

Keep - He's Sidney Crosby. At his best there's no player in the league that can produce like he can. King of the grinders. Makes the players around him better. A leader. Best playmaker they have.
Dump - Health is a concern. His performances in the playoffs have been big hits or curious misses. Probably deserves and will get a raise based on known potential alone, and that's a lot of cap money on a guy who's "one hit away". (No, I don't buy that as a negative, but it is being discussed). Why did the team hit a speed bump defensively when he came back?

Verdict: KEEP


It's really only being discussed by one guy and you are probably well aware of that.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Abe Frohman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:14 pm

Kovy27 wrote:
Abe Frohman wrote:OK...

You are keeping Crosby (and his health concerns) but dumping the reigning Hart Trophy winner...who plays a better game (and gets the Pens into the playoffs) without our 'star' sitting in the owner's box for the past 1.5 years?

Wow...

So after dealing Malkin AND having Crosby suffer yet another concussion (and subsequentally retiring early), you will be happy with Staal as your top center...and nobody else behind him? Welcome to Columbus (without the talent of Nash)...

THAT is a gamble I would never take.

I would (instead) keep Crosby (if we must, and I know the organization will never trade him) and Malkin and trade Staal...


You don't say...I'm in complete shock that you want to trade Crosby.


All things being equal. I would NOT want to trade Crosby...

But understand the gamble this organization takes when signing him to a large long-term contract. Seriously...understand the very real problems this could cause. Perhaps you are willing to take this gamble (and I repect this as your right), I am not...

I am a very conservative person in business...I hedge ALL my bets when hiring or firing my employees, and I seek out the best help with the greatest upside, but I also weigh the potential for failure. In Crosby, I feel that the upside is great, but the potential for failure is too great to invest. And the current returns do not dissuade my principle concerns in any way. Especially when I can better my organization with outside 'stars' that will actually be at work vs. taking off large amounts of time on 'medical leave.'
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:17 pm

IanMoran wrote:
Three Stars wrote:
Malkin-

Keep- Likely reigning Hart Trophy winner, so would we really want to trade him with a trophy in his hand? Goes through times when he's scarily unstoppable. Big guy with moves out of the Matrix. Best goal scorer they have, probably the second best shot. This was his first healthy year in a while and he didn't disappoint.
Dump - Can be all but neutralized by mental games, which a lot of rivals have figured out. Is he equal to Crosby, and will he take money equal to Crosby or more? Starting (or finishing) to get a reputation for running around and dirty play. His potential salary is going to be vast, and it's still not entirely clear which Malkin will be around for the coming years.

Verdict: DUMP, but only for a top defenseman.


Stopped reading lol


Three Stars wrote:Again...ALL HYPOTHETICAL.


If you can't stand the heat, get out of the thread.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:18 pm

Fast B wrote:
Three Stars wrote:Crosby-

Keep - He's Sidney Crosby. At his best there's no player in the league that can produce like he can. King of the grinders. Makes the players around him better. A leader. Best playmaker they have.
Dump - Health is a concern. His performances in the playoffs have been big hits or curious misses. Probably deserves and will get a raise based on known potential alone, and that's a lot of cap money on a guy who's "one hit away". (No, I don't buy that as a negative, but it is being discussed). Why did the team hit a speed bump defensively when he came back?

Verdict: KEEP


It's really only being discussed by one guy and you are probably well aware of that.


Fixed your boldface. Yes, I'm very well aware of that, but it's been more than one person suggesting it. I think it's a load of crap, but there it is.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby count2infinity on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:19 pm

at this point i'm thinking i'd keep malkin over crosby only because of the uncertainty, but we don't need to do anything right at this very moment, so why worry about it this summer?
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Kovy27 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:23 pm

Crosby - Best Player in the Game - Suffered concussions that held him out for a yearish and then the issue with his Neck Meat....He's a keeper. No one is even close when he's on.
Malkin - 2nd Best Player in the Game - Hart Trophy Winner, Scoring Champ, and Excels when Crosby is out....He's a keeper unless a deal comes along that includes one of the very best defensemen in the league.
Staal - Defensive Leader on this team - Does everything we ask him too and more. He can score, kills penalties....I think he's going to want a nice deal and want to be a 1st line center somewhere else. Unless we move one of the other 2, I think he's the odd man out at this point.

Neal - Just signed. 40 goals from a winger. Just signed. Not going anywhere. Keep
Kunitz - I think he stays just for his aggressiveness and veteran leadership. Keep
Kennedy - I wish he was a little more consistent. I wish he was a little bigger. I wish he would score more. I'm on the fence with this one. Really weak Dump.
Cooke - Please go back to hitting (cleanly). I do like his new goal scoring style. Weak Keep.
Dups - Keeper.
Sullivan - Keeper only if he signs at the same price.

I really think the Pens need a big, shooting, PP specialist D-man....and that's what they should attempt to get.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:37 pm

This is insane. Really, trading Malkin for a top Dman? My head hurts.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:40 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:This is insane. Really, trading Malkin for a top Dman? My head hurts.


So what's your scenario? This is the land of hypothetical in this thread. It doesn't mean that everything has to make sense to everybody.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Staggy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:44 pm

If dumping one of the big three for a top Dman were to happen, I think it's possible to keep Geno and trade Staal in that scenario. Do you just think this isn't feasible or do you think it's more prudent to keep Staal for 5-6 mill than it is to keep Geno for ~9?
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby shmenguin on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm

Keep everyone but Adams and make sure Sullivan is gonna have something in the tank before you sign him
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:51 pm

Three Stars wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:This is insane. Really, trading Malkin for a top Dman? My head hurts.


So what's your scenario? This is the land of hypothetical in this thread. It doesn't mean that everything has to make sense to everybody.

Of course it doesn't. In my honest and very humble opinion, this sort of mentality really damages the quality of future posts on the board, though. To me, it's quite reactionary and remarkably yinzer-ish to suggest we "dump" many good players after a playoff loss. I'll keep this clean per your thread, but I think you'd even agree that this wholesale roster inventory is quite fanciful. Now, I agree that I didn't have to open the thread, but this type of discussion ultimately winnows the better, more realistic type discussion. Maybe I'm in the minority, and I'm the one that needs to be more creative and open-minded. Indeed, I never thought Gogo for Neal could happen in a million years. However, suggesting that we trade the presumptive Hart winner is, well, "insane."


With that, however, I will offer my scenario.

I'll keep all of the forwards that aren't FAs. I really want to see Adams' PT limited, but DB loves him and so does RS. I'm fine bringing Sullivan back. I saw somewhere that we were one of the smallest teams in the NHL; I'd like to see some more size.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby count2infinity on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:56 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:Of course it doesn't. In my honest and very humble opinion, this sort of mentality really damages the quality of future posts on the board, though. To me, it's quite reactionary and remarkably yinzer-ish to suggest we "dump" many good players after a playoff loss. I'll keep this clean per your thread, but I think you'd even agree that this wholesale roster inventory is quite fanciful. Now, I agree that I didn't have to open the thread, but this type of discussion ultimately winnows the better, more realistic type discussion. Maybe I'm in the minority, and I'm the one that needs to be more creative and open-minded. Indeed, I never thought Gogo for Neal could happen in a million years. However, suggesting that we trade the presumptive Hart winner is, well, "insane."


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:01 pm

I think there's plenty going on around here that has already damaged the quality of posts on the board. I find it curious that people really don't want to talk hockey unless it's one of a very small list of "approved" topics.

Of course it's fanciful. I've put the word hypothetical in here 4 times and counting. None of us are hockey executives, so realism doesn't enter into it.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby neophool on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:03 pm

Anyone not named Jordan, Sidney, Geno, or James should DUMP THE PUCK at the blue line. Sid and CO can KEEP the puck - they have the skills to carry it in the O zone.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby columbia on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:07 pm

The "everyone is a hit away from the end of their career" (and therefore it doesn't matter) argument in relation to Crosby is ignoring reality.

You do not trade someone like Staal and you especially don't because of Crosby's uncertain future.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby farnham16 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:08 pm

If anyone will get traded for a Top of the line defensmen it will be Staal. There is no way on earth you trade Malkin after the year he had. Malkin would be the last one I would trade in the group of Sid, Geno, Staal.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby NJ5934 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:10 pm

I'm all for retooling and I'm not talking about whether or not to bring back Sullivan. If I were Shero I would be making a call over to the Edmonton boys first thing tomorrow morning to see what they would be willing to package up for Malkin or Crosby along with Martin.

Either Shero grossly misjudged the leadership in the locker room and failed to bring in a Guerin/Roberts like presence or something fell apart when Sid came back into the lineup. It doesn't even matter anymore....Shero built this lineup for another championship and the team failed, miserably, with another first round exit. Everyone failed to some extent.....From the general manager...to the coach..to the captain. I would even guess the team is not making enough money for these past couple seasons to be acceptable to the owners. It's time to make a major change and if Letang and Staal are going to stay....it might as well be sooner rather than later. Just my opinion.
Last edited by NJ5934 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby farnham16 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:10 pm

columbia wrote:The "everyone is a hit away from the end of their career" (and therefore it doesn't matter) argument in relation to Crosby is ignoring reality.

You do not trade someone like Staal and you especially don't because of Crosby's uncertain future.


That is true, but you can't deny that at this point Crosby's health is a much bigger question mark moving forward than anyone else really. One more concussion and it could be over for him. That is a scary thing to think about. That is why trading Malkin is the dumbest thing ever.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby columbia on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:14 pm

farnham16 wrote:
columbia wrote:The "everyone is a hit away from the end of their career" (and therefore it doesn't matter) argument in relation to Crosby is ignoring reality.

You do not trade someone like Staal and you especially don't because of Crosby's uncertain future.


That is true, but you can't deny that at this point Crosby's health is a much bigger question mark moving forward than anyone else really. One more concussion and it could be over for him. That is a scary thing to think about. That is why trading Malkin is the dumbest thing ever.


Yep....That's why you keep all of them, otherwise you risk - say two years from now - only having one of them still around:
Staal in another uniform and Crosby living with his parents, unable to play.

It's about conservative and appropriate management of risk and holding on to your cards, as is.
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