Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby bhaw on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:51 pm

slappybrown wrote:
bhaw wrote:Kunitz has two more years on his (recently extended) contract and we have no one even remotely capable of replacing him at this point. Put him back with Sid where he was more in control and more productive. He's a good value and mostly irreplaceable when he's on his game.

didn't he set a career high in goals this year? Not sure breaking that line up makes sense.


He was also on pace for a career year last year before Crosby got knocked out. I don't think there's a bad spot to put him.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 27,220
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Mr. Colby on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:26 pm

Crosby:
KEEP. Regardless of injury concerns, you don't dump a world-class player. He needs to take a look in the mirror though and re-discover his guts, because he didn't show them these playoffs.


Malkin:
KEEP. You don't dump a world-class player. Playoff performance was meh, so he needs to make sure he is better than that next time.


Staal:
DUMP. With 1 year left on his deal, Pens will have a tough time retaining his services. His value is super high and you should be able to get a high-end player and/or prospects and picks. He is a luxury and there are other areas of concern.


Neal:
KEEP. This is the guy we have needed for years. He showed up these playoffs - which is more than you can say about most.


Kunitz:
KEEP. He's a fantastic complementary player for our top 2 centers. He needs to take less stupid penalties and cause less goals to be disallowed.


Dupuis:
KEEP. What a year, what a price tag. Works really well with Sid. He was pretty invisible the last few playoff games though.


Sullivan:
DUMP. He's far too soft. Need to get rid of our perimeter players. We will find another option at PP point.


Cooke:
KEEP. He played well, he has a good price tag for 3rd line, he has character. He needs to figure out how to produce more consistently.


Kennedy:
KEEP. He battled through a tough year with injuries and what not. This is a guy with a ton of heart and a scoring touch from line 3. He contributes to our puck possession game and is still young. Needs to work on some things though.


Adams:
KEEP. Adams is Adams. Keep him for one last year.


Tangradi:
KEEP. He showed me a lot down the stretch. Even if he turns into a 3rd or 4th liner, he looks like he can play in this league. He's waiver-eligible, so there is no other option but to trade him at low value.


Park:
DUMP. Old, small, pretty much useless.


Asham:
DUMP. Old, slow, pretty much useless.


Vitale:
KEEP. Maybe his role should increase? Or maybe decrease? I don't know, but he's a fine option as a 12 or 13 forward.


Jeffrey:
DUMP. Who? What a shame this year was for him. There's no spot for him though, so try to trade him for a pick or else you'll lose him via waivers.


Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
UFA1-Crosby-Dupuis
Cooke-UFA2-Kennedy
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams

UFA 1: Winger acquired either via UFA (a) or trade for Staal (b).
(a). Parise, Doan, Selanne, Smyth, D. Jones
(b). Stafford, Roy, Morrow, Hornqvist, Clowe, Malone

UFA 2: Center acquired via UFA.
Stoll, Gaustad, Pahlsson, Chris Kelly
Preferably Stoll - he plays PP point.
Mr. Colby
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,880
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Born and Raised in Kent Manderville

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:17 am

I am torn on Staal. I think he is an incredible, physical player that always shows up in the playoffs. That being said, he is naturally going to be disgruntled being stuck in a third-line role when, by all accounts, he would easily be a 2nd liner on most NHL teams, and possibly a 1st on some of the worst.

On another random note, I am sorely, sorely disappointed that Craig Adams isn't a UFA for another year. He has nothing left in the tank.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 58,785
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Hawkeynut on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:24 am

Mr. Colby wrote:Crosby:
KEEP. Regardless of injury concerns, you don't dump a world-class player. He needs to take a look in the mirror though and re-discover his guts, because he didn't show them these playoffs.

Staal:
DUMP. With 1 year left on his deal, Pens will have a tough time retaining his services. His value is super high and you should be able to get a high-end player and/or prospects and picks. He is a luxury and there are other areas of concern.



I'm not sure what more Crosby has to do. Your Crosby "guts" comment is absurd. He fought, he showed unbelievable passion in his comments in the media, he didn't back down. The only thing that failed Crosby in this series is his game legs. Had Crosby played 40+ games this year, he would have been on fire in this series.

As for Staal. This team is built with 3 centers and will continue to be that way. There is more than enough room to resign Staal at a reasonable contract. Now if Staal doesn't want to be here then fine. But nothing has shown me that he doesn't or that he is unhappy with his role with the club. You keep Staal until the bitter end.
Hawkeynut
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,933
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Somewhere between point A and point B

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby sil on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:29 am

I like these hypotheticals three stars...so thanks! Not only are they fun, but I enjoy the reactions some suggestions get :wink:.

That being said, to me the question being tossed around centers on...well, the three centers. IF Shero and his staff really feel they cannot keep all three...so put aside suggestions about all three staying (which could certainly happen depending on a few factors)...if you had to keep two, what would you do? Yes I realize Crosby is 'damaged goods' now...but there is no one (outside of probably Shea Weber) who would have a higher value on the market right now than Malkin, his far less than stellar 2012 playoffs included. I said this is another thread, but if Shero could get a $3-4M winger/top-6 forward, a young stud $4-5 d-man, and a good pick/prospect (or some combination), for Malkin...idk, I personally wouldn't be so quick to say no.

Look at St. Louis...they have tons of grit and size and defense (especially in their system), but they lack top-tier talent and scoring...if they would give up Oshie, Pietrangelo, a good prosepct, and a 1st/2nd pick for Malkin...would you honestly not consider it at all?
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,119
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby no name on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:30 am

Is Staal out of our price range now?? You figure he was making 4 million he could easily get 5 to 5.5 on the open market. Now would be the time to trade him, but i would do everything i could to resign him to a long term deal. 5 million a season i think would get it done.
no name
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,288
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby sil on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:33 am

BTW, the problem with getting a high end player (so a $5-7M player) and picks/prospects for Staal is that we suddenly made our cap situation worse heading into the consecutive years we need to sign Crosby and than Malkin...which is the whole point of 'dumping' staal to begin with. Not only this, but this high end player is a top-6 forward or top-D, right? So what happens to our thrid forward line? Any team competing for a cup will have a $2-4M center on the third line...and with the above scenario, we'd have enough cap room left to either put a crash test dummy at third line center, Joe Vitale, or Criag Adams...and I don't know which would be the best option.
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,119
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby shmenguin on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:44 am

shafnutz05 wrote:On another random note, I am sorely, sorely disappointed that Craig Adams isn't a UFA for another year. He has nothing left in the tank.


Adams might be one of the worst 5 on 5 non-goon players in the league. The deal was that he could penalty kill and give us some sand paper in the playoffs and that would make up for his lack of talent and poor even strength play. Looks like that ship has sailed.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 23,621
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 pm

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby sil on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:06 am

shmenguin wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:On another random note, I am sorely, sorely disappointed that Craig Adams isn't a UFA for another year. He has nothing left in the tank.


Adams might be one of the worst 5 on 5 non-goon players in the league. The deal was that he could penalty kill and give us some sand paper in the playoffs and that would make up for his lack of talent and poor even strength play. Looks like that ship has sailed.


I really was at a loss seeing him get inserted over both Vitale and Tangradi in different games. I could see Craig getting waived in September.
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,119
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby sil on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:08 am

no name wrote:Is Staal out of our price range now?? You figure he was making 4 million he could easily get 5 to 5.5 on the open market. Now would be the time to trade him, but i would do everything i could to resign him to a long term deal. 5 million a season i think would get it done.


No, he's out of our price range, and we need to sign Malkin and Crosby...so the logical thing to do is trade Staal for a top player making $5,000,000, plus a high prospect that will need a big raise in a year or two! That'll fix the cap issues! :wink:
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,119
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby pfim on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:26 am

I think trading Staal or Malkin for a top defenseman is a false premise. The team already spends enough on the blueline, they just need those players to produce better results.
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,789
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby pens2005 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:07 am

I am going to say this because I 100% believe this to be true.

If the Penguins trade Jordan Staal, everything they hope to become in the near future on both offense and defense, takes a huge step backwards.

They cannot trade Jordan Staal. He is too young, and too much of a beast at both ends of the ice. He could end up being a really good leader on this team in the near future.

If there is a big move on the horizon with the big three, like it or not, Malkin is the guy you trade. You're not trading Malkin and Staal can be seen as a "great deal" centermen who does SO MUCH for your team.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby pens2005 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:11 am

pfim wrote:I think trading Staal or Malkin for a top defenseman is a false premise. The team already spends enough on the blueline, they just need those players to produce better results.


Yikes, so you're taking the "let's just hope they all play better" route.

Something has to change, bud. Something has to.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Pitts on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:24 am

Streaks House wrote:I just can't fathom a scenario where moving Malkin, a generational talent, turns out good for the Penguins. Given that:

1) The Penguins play in a league where payroll is capped at a ceiling. This limits the possibilities for a package in return.

2) The health of Sidney Crosby. Sure, it's hockey and any player is always one hit away. But Crosby already has a trunk full of Tumi and Samsonite baggage in regard to health. Not trying to be a pessimist, just being a realist, but most athletes that suffer a significant neurological trauma tend to have issues related to it down the road. I would never bet against Sid to stay healthy and enjoy a long fruitful career because he's Sid, but this is a cloud that will follow him for sometime.

Beyond these two points, it just doesn't make sense to me to trade a generational talent that is on the brink of entering the prime of his career. I can't think of too many scenarios where trading this type of talent at this juncture of their career turned out well.

I've mentioned this in the past, but it doesn't happen too often where a franchise is lucky enough to have one, yet alone two generational talents. These types of players don't grow on trees. We as Penguins fans have been graced by 4 of these generational talents over the past 20 years, talk about fortunate. I feel that some of us have become spoiled in this regard. These are two players that ideally play out the remainder of their productive years as Penguins.

Lest we forget, it wasn't all that long ago; February 2011-April 2011 when we as fans went through a stretch without the two-headed monster of Geno and Sid. I enjoyed watching the team gut out hard fought wins, play fundamentally sound hockey, there's something special about that. But at the end of the day, you had a feeling that there was light at the end of tunnel and the return of Geno and Sid was likely right around the corner.

So to all of the folks in the TRADE MALKIN camp, I ask you two questions:

1) are you prepared as fan to face the possibility of no Crosby AND Malkin?

2) what type of package would you want in return for Malkin?

Lemme ask you one:

What if Malkin doesn't like playing second fiddle to Crosby? That is a very REAL possibility. Maybe Malkin wants to run his own team.
Pitts
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,899
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Working ....

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby pfim on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:24 am

pens2005 wrote:
pfim wrote:I think trading Staal or Malkin for a top defenseman is a false premise. The team already spends enough on the blueline, they just need those players to produce better results.


Yikes, so you're taking the "let's just hope they all play better" route.

Something has to change, bud. Something has to.


They have spent $20 million on the blue line. If those players aren't performing, you move them, not one of the cornerstones of your franchise.

The false premise is that they spend too much tying up forwards long term and not enough on the blue line. It's just not true.
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,789
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Streaks House on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Pitts wrote:
Streaks House wrote:I just can't fathom a scenario where moving Malkin, a generational talent, turns out good for the Penguins. Given that:

1) The Penguins play in a league where payroll is capped at a ceiling. This limits the possibilities for a package in return.

2) The health of Sidney Crosby. Sure, it's hockey and any player is always one hit away. But Crosby already has a trunk full of Tumi and Samsonite baggage in regard to health. Not trying to be a pessimist, just being a realist, but most athletes that suffer a significant neurological trauma tend to have issues related to it down the road. I would never bet against Sid to stay healthy and enjoy a long fruitful career because he's Sid, but this is a cloud that will follow him for sometime.

Beyond these two points, it just doesn't make sense to me to trade a generational talent that is on the brink of entering the prime of his career. I can't think of too many scenarios where trading this type of talent at this juncture of their career turned out well.

I've mentioned this in the past, but it doesn't happen too often where a franchise is lucky enough to have one, yet alone two generational talents. These types of players don't grow on trees. We as Penguins fans have been graced by 4 of these generational talents over the past 20 years, talk about fortunate. I feel that some of us have become spoiled in this regard. These are two players that ideally play out the remainder of their productive years as Penguins.

Lest we forget, it wasn't all that long ago; February 2011-April 2011 when we as fans went through a stretch without the two-headed monster of Geno and Sid. I enjoyed watching the team gut out hard fought wins, play fundamentally sound hockey, there's something special about that. But at the end of the day, you had a feeling that there was light at the end of tunnel and the return of Geno and Sid was likely right around the corner.

So to all of the folks in the TRADE MALKIN camp, I ask you two questions:

1) are you prepared as fan to face the possibility of no Crosby AND Malkin?

2) what type of package would you want in return for Malkin?

Lemme ask you one:

What if Malkin doesn't like playing second fiddle to Crosby? That is a very REAL possibility. Maybe Malkin wants to run his own team.


This would be a bad scenario, and is realistic as you note above.

Did Malkin fail to meet our expectations in the playoffs? Sure, I think everyone, including Malkin himself, expected 71 to have a a better playoff performance than he did. We can cite reasons why this failed to happen, but let's save that for another day.

Nonetheless, I saw a different Malkin this year. I saw a desire to compete and be the best, dating back to the injury rehab from knee surgery. It seemed like he became more comfortable being in the spotlight and is progressing towards becoming a good leader. Seemed like he was really enjoying himself and having fun playing in the games. He was dominating. I think he earned the right for the Penguins to be considered "Malkin's team". Not saying he has an issue with playing second fiddle to Crosby, but put yourself in his skates. You get moved from were you spent most of the regular season on the PP, amongst other changes.

If this is the case and he doesn't want to play second fiddle to Crosby, I think you whatever makes 71 happy, based on the logic in my original post, you do WHATEVER it takes to keep Malkin happy. If that means back on the half wall on the PP or trade Crosby or something else minor/major, you defer to Malkin.
Streaks House
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,488
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:16 pm
Location: Ted Carrick's Table

Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:26 pm

Keep Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Neal, Dupuis, Kunitz, Cooke.

Not sure on Kennedy.

Look to upgrade the rest, focusing on size and punishing gameplay.

We have 2 big name defensemen to trade (M&M). Use that to acquire one better defenseman or simply lose them for picks and sign a good FA if one is available. Then bring up Despres next season. Find an extra D who's not expensive, but has size and isn't afraid of physical contact. I think all that is possible without breaking up the core group of forwards.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,283
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Previous

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: saints11 and 12 guests


e-mail