Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:19 pm

columbia wrote:
farnham16 wrote:
columbia wrote:The "everyone is a hit away from the end of their career" (and therefore it doesn't matter) argument in relation to Crosby is ignoring reality.

You do not trade someone like Staal and you especially don't because of Crosby's uncertain future.


That is true, but you can't deny that at this point Crosby's health is a much bigger question mark moving forward than anyone else really. One more concussion and it could be over for him. That is a scary thing to think about. That is why trading Malkin is the dumbest thing ever.


Yep....That's why you keep all of them, otherwise you risk - say two years from now - only having one of them still around:
Staal in another uniform and Crosby living with his parents, unable to play.

It's about conservative and appropriate management of risk and holding on to your cards, as is.


Your scenario could still happen even if nobody gets traded now. Crosby doesn't become a vegetable but gets a max contract. Malkin demands a max contract and the cap goes down. Staal demands 8 million dollars after a 40 goal season.

I'm not saying that trading Malkin is the right thing to do in general, but in terms of asset management it's at least a consideration (as I said above) depending on the return.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Streaks House on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:36 pm

I just can't fathom a scenario where moving Malkin, a generational talent, turns out good for the Penguins. Given that:

1) The Penguins play in a league where payroll is capped at a ceiling. This limits the possibilities for a package in return.

2) The health of Sidney Crosby. Sure, it's hockey and any player is always one hit away. But Crosby already has a trunk full of Tumi and Samsonite baggage in regard to health. Not trying to be a pessimist, just being a realist, but most athletes that suffer a significant neurological trauma tend to have issues related to it down the road. I would never bet against Sid to stay healthy and enjoy a long fruitful career because he's Sid, but this is a cloud that will follow him for sometime.

Beyond these two points, it just doesn't make sense to me to trade a generational talent that is on the brink of entering the prime of his career. I can't think of too many scenarios where trading this type of talent at this juncture of their career turned out well.

I've mentioned this in the past, but it doesn't happen too often where a franchise is lucky enough to have one, yet alone two generational talents. These types of players don't grow on trees. We as Penguins fans have been graced by 4 of these generational talents over the past 20 years, talk about fortunate. I feel that some of us have become spoiled in this regard. These are two players that ideally play out the remainder of their productive years as Penguins.

Lest we forget, it wasn't all that long ago; February 2011-April 2011 when we as fans went through a stretch without the two-headed monster of Geno and Sid. I enjoyed watching the team gut out hard fought wins, play fundamentally sound hockey, there's something special about that. But at the end of the day, you had a feeling that there was light at the end of tunnel and the return of Geno and Sid was likely right around the corner.

So to all of the folks in the TRADE MALKIN camp, I ask you two questions:

1) are you prepared as fan to face the possibility of no Crosby AND Malkin?

2) what type of package would you want in return for Malkin?
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:45 pm

Cooke was a complete non-factor this series as was Kunitz. These guys in past cups runs have been monsters in the corners, throwing big body checks and winning battles one on one. If this is going to be their new norm, coasting past hits and playing like they are above mucking it up then they dont have a place on this team. I was disappointed with both this series.

Say what you want about Cooke reforming his image, but he needs to find that thin line again.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:48 pm

Streaks House wrote:So to all of the folks in the TRADE MALKIN camp, I ask you two questions:

1) are you prepared as fan to face the possibility of no Crosby AND Malkin?

2) what type of package would you want in return for Malkin?


Malkin is down my list of players who needed to do more. I wouldn't trade Malkin, I would look at ways to improve the defense/goaltending.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:53 pm

1) Sure, why not? I'm also prepared for the possibility that the current roster is untenable as constructed. We've seen almost every permutation of how this team doesn't work right in the past few years. Post-Cup hangover and Staal hobbled? Check. No Crosby or Malkin? Check. Team defensive structure breaks down? Check. Even the Cup year had a curiously ineffective Crosby in the finals, which tells you what an extraordinary thing that win was. The year before that we had ineffective Malkin. Having one of the three out or ineffective means than an entire line is neutralized (since every winger possibly not named Neal is a complementary piece totally dependent on his center to be consistently productive), the other lines are forced into unfamiliar roles, and everything goes south from there.

2) Start with an elite defenseman, a top 6 forward, and a #1 draft pick. They can figure it out from there.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Streaks House on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:53 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Cooke was a complete non-factor this series as was Kunitz. These guys in past cups runs have been monsters in the corners, throwing big body checks and winning battles one on one. If this is going to be their new norm, coasting past hits and playing like they are above mucking it up then they dont have a place on this team. I was disappointed with both this series.

Say what you want about Cooke reforming his image, but he needs to find that thin line again.


I'll agree with you about Cooke, but that's the nature of the beast given his history. As far as Kunitz, I thought he delivered some pretty punishing hits, at least in all of the home games I attended this series.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Patton on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:58 pm

One thing...who here is ready to see Malkin or Crosby face off against the Pens, even if they get sent west and it's only in the finals. That prospect alone puts me firmly in the "keep" category for both.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Kaizer on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:10 pm

pretty sure the point of the thread is to come up with your own stuff, not attack others for theirs.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby NJ5934 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:11 pm

The Kunitz/Cooke matter is always going to be an issue as long as the cap space is locked up in three centers. There just isnt enough space to upgrade along the wings. That has been the counter to the Penguin template for years now. Would your team, or your scoring line be more successful with one 9 million dollar center like Malkin.....or two 4.5 dollar forwards.....or even three 3 million dollar forwards.

And if you already have a forward making 9......does it make more sense to put another 9 in a second forward...or a blue liner? All in all....I think Shero tried to have the best of both worlds while he could afford to do it. He had Staal and Letang locked in at cap friendly numbers and he brought in M&M who unfortunately did not play up to expectations. The next Staal...Letang...and probably Malkin contracts are not going to provide him as much flexibility. The penguin template is going to burst at some point.....it did in Tampa....it's just a matter of who goes and what do we get back.

I dont think the return is going to be the issue...I think it's going to come down to who the true leader of this team is.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby count2infinity on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:19 pm

Sully-Crosby-Dupuis
Neal-Malkin-Kunitz
TK-Staal-Cooke
Asham/Adams/Vitale/Jeffrey/Tangradi/Park

so that's this years team, what could we possibly do to make that better? give Staal better wingers? maybe some young guys that are looking to prove themselves, but that's more of a 4th line thing to do. I honestly think those forwards are fine where they're at, the D is what needs the work. Obviously there's a lot of over-reactive people here because we just got knocked out of the playoffs. I really don't expect big huge movement over the offseason and honestly don't think big moves are warranted.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Jopaz on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:30 pm

What is also missing are some WBS guys that are ready to make the step up. If Tangradi and Jeffrey are the best of the bunch at WBS, that is a problem. We saw how the Flyers had several rookies that made the team this year and now they have experience and could be around a while.
Having some quality depth also pushes the current roster to perform or get replaced. The current top 9 never had to worry this year about getting scratched and replaced by a hungry rookie. I remember when guys like Talbot and Armstrong were called up and never left the lineup after that.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:32 pm

Speaking of depth, Dustin Jeffrey's knee caused him to fall off the face of the earth this year. He looked for a bit like he was going to take a step forward.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby profpolisci on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:47 pm

Player- Sid
Keep- He's Sidney f'in Crosby
Dump- He does his best work in the most physically brutal areas of the ice. Teams will target his head for the rest of his career.

Verdict: Keep.
He's Sidney f'in Crosby, a generational talent. Live with your fingers crossed.

Player-Geno

Keep- He's an obviously intelligent young man who will mature into a relentlessly driven player. As he evolves he will come to understand that he's virtually unstoppable when he plays the game instead of the game playing him. You want him there should misfortune befall Sid and
in your heart of heart's you know Geno might very well be the best player in the world.
Dump- He'll occasionally let the game play him, that's just the way it's always going to be, which is fine if you're not paying him 9+ million dollars a year.
Verdict: Keep.
Hypothetically, I believe in Geno.


Player- Staal

Keep- He will only get better. I feel he's way underrated as a playmaker.
Dump- There is no reason to dump Jordan Staal because of his play.

Verdict: Dump (with a heavy heart)
Hypothetically, it's hard to imagine him wanting to stick around on the team's third line.


Player- Neal

Keep- I wonder how many goals he gets with Sid on the PP? 50?
Dump- Worth every penny.

Verdict: Keep
Please get the PP straightened out so Nealer can get his 50 goals.


Player- Dupuis

Keep- Aging like fine wine.
Dump- Aging

Verdict:Keep
Keep the wine.


Player-Kunitz

Keep- perhaps their most aggressive forechecker.
Dump- You often wonder: Where's our most aggressive forechecker?

Verdict: Keep
He's really good when the D plays well. Please address the D problems Ray.


Player-Sullivan

Keep-Good bang for the buck. He made the PP better.
Dump-No bang on the boards.

Verdict:Dump
They need more bang on the boards.
Simone Despres, your time has come.


Player-Kennedy

Keep- I like him and don't think he's overpaid. Brings the hustle, effective on the forecheck. This guy can step in and step it up. Rick Tocchet thinks he should be on the first PP. That's not going to happen but I hold Rick Tocchet in high esteem.
Dump- You might be able to get a decent large d-man for him, or so I've heard.

Verdict: Keep
Every team needs a guy who can step in and step it up.


Player- Cooke

Keep- He's good on the PK, can chip in a few goals. He's good on the forecheck. I wish he was on a steadily rolled fourth line.
Dump- He no longer strikes fear in anybody.

Verdict: Keep
...though I'm hoping Eric Tangradi can drive Cookie to the fourth line.


Player-Eric Tangradi

Keep-It looked to me like his skating improved. He's 6'4 225.
Dump- I hope not.

Verdict:Keep
...just a feeling, but I think he's going to become an effective presence.
Last edited by profpolisci on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby columbia on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:48 pm

Jopaz wrote:What is also missing are some WBS guys that are ready to make the step up. If Tangradi and Jeffrey are the best of the bunch at WBS, that is a problem. We saw how the Flyers had several rookies that made the team this year and now they have experience and could be around a while.
Having some quality depth also pushes the current roster to perform or get replaced. The current top 9 never had to worry this year about getting scratched and replaced by a hungry rookie. I remember when guys like Talbot and Armstrong were called up and never left the lineup after that.


To be fair, the Flyers acquired those rookies in the process of trading away their two franchise players.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby bhaw on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:56 pm

Sid - Keep for obvious reasons
Malkin - Keep for obvious reasons
Staal - I make sacrifices elsewhere for him after this series. The only guy who's heart is in it every single night and he always picks up his play. You can't put a price on a winner. Maybe try him at wing, but I'm fine with a $4m 3rd line center ($5m maybe next year but won't be much more).
Vitale - Keep, but kind of meh if we find better.
Park - Dump. As we saw down the stretch, he's not going to get much time on this team.

Neal - Keep. 40 goals. Won't find that anywhere else.
Kunitz - Keep for another year b/c we have no one to replace him.
Dupuis - Best value in the NHL :)
TK - Keep to try him in the top 6. If he can't work in the top 6, time to move him later in the year. Reasoning is so we can make the 3rd line stronger on D with a bigger body and D first mentality in his place.
Sullivan - Dump b/c I'm moving TK to his spot and he won't help us much in the bottom 6.
Cooke - Keep one more year until we can groom someone to replace him.
Asham - Dump. New blood, younger blood.
Adams - Dump. Same as Asham.
MacIntyre - Dump. No explanation needed.

Tangradi - I have no answer b/c it depends if the Pens are happy with him or not. If they aren't happy, package him with Martin in a deal. If they are happy, get him on the 4th or 3rd line.

Basically I'm looking to replace 1 3rd liner and 2 4th liners with bigger, younger bodies who can be groomed to replace Cooke and possibly Kunitz within 2 years. Those guys are still good but they are going to start declining soon. Need to make sure we don't miss a beat.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby KG on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:58 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Cooke was a complete non-factor this series as was Kunitz. These guys in past cups runs have been monsters in the corners, throwing big body checks and winning battles one on one. If this is going to be their new norm, coasting past hits and playing like they are above mucking it up then they dont have a place on this team. I was disappointed with both this series.

Say what you want about Cooke reforming his image, but he needs to find that thin line again.


I agree. Which is why sometimes change isn't such a bad thing sometimes. I think the team needs some new blood. Some new leadership as well.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby bhaw on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:00 pm

columbia wrote:
Jopaz wrote:What is also missing are some WBS guys that are ready to make the step up. If Tangradi and Jeffrey are the best of the bunch at WBS, that is a problem. We saw how the Flyers had several rookies that made the team this year and now they have experience and could be around a while.
Having some quality depth also pushes the current roster to perform or get replaced. The current top 9 never had to worry this year about getting scratched and replaced by a hungry rookie. I remember when guys like Talbot and Armstrong were called up and never left the lineup after that.


To be fair, the Flyers acquired those rookies in the process of trading away their two franchise players.


The Pens had to totally restock when Shero came in. They graduated all their WBS talent in a matter of 2 seasons. It took years of high draft picks to accumulate all that talent. We are seeing how it helps on D right now, but the forwards are still behind. Most people bash Shero for this, but he came in to a totally bare farm system in terms of forward talent because we literally moved it all into the NHL in one fell swoop.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby Kovy27 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:20 pm

Jopaz brought up Jeffrey, but the kid couldn't see the ice in Game 4 when 3 players were suspended. Unless he was hurt and I didn't hear about it, that's not good news for him.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby bhaw on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:30 pm

Kovy27 wrote:Jopaz brought up Jeffrey, but the kid couldn't see the ice in Game 4 when 3 players were suspended. Unless he was hurt and I didn't hear about it, that's not good news for him.


Problem is he's a type of player we only need ONE of, and we have Sullivan, TK, Jeffrey, and anyone else they bring in to try it. He's not going to beat out Sullivan or TK for the type of role he fills.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby slappybrown on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:32 pm

Streaks House wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Cooke was a complete non-factor this series as was Kunitz. These guys in past cups runs have been monsters in the corners, throwing big body checks and winning battles one on one. If this is going to be their new norm, coasting past hits and playing like they are above mucking it up then they dont have a place on this team. I was disappointed with both this series.

Say what you want about Cooke reforming his image, but he needs to find that thin line again.


I'll agree with you about Cooke, but that's the nature of the beast given his history. As far as Kunitz, I thought he delivered some pretty punishing hits, at least in all of the home games I attended this series.

kunitz's assortment of stupid penalties far outweighed anything else he did
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby columbia on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:36 pm

Were it not for the surgery, this would have been Jeffrey's real chance to show if you could transition to wing and put up some nice numbers. I'm not saying that opportunity is gone, but they don't have much incentive to give it to him....best case scenario for him I'd that he catches on elsewhere.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby bhaw on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:37 pm

Kunitz has two more years on his (recently extended) contract and we have no one even remotely capable of replacing him at this point. Put him back with Sid where he was more in control and more productive. He's a good value and mostly irreplaceable when he's on his game.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby slappybrown on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:38 pm

bhaw wrote:Kunitz has two more years on his (recently extended) contract and we have no one even remotely capable of replacing him at this point. Put him back with Sid where he was more in control and more productive. He's a good value and mostly irreplaceable when he's on his game.

didn't he set a career high in goals this year? Not sure breaking that line up makes sense.
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby farnham16 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:41 pm

Sid - Keep
Geno - Keep
Staal - Try to keep, but don't refuse to look to deal him
Kunitz - Dump. What a joker he was this series. He did so many stupid things that hurt us it makes my head spin. Hes a solid player but he can be replaced by someone younger.
Dupuis - Keep
Cooke - Keep
Kennedy - Dump
Neal - Keep
Sullivan - Keep
Adams - Dump. He just doesn't bring enough to the table anymore. Need to get younger.
Park - Dump. See Adams.
Asham - Dump. What he did to Shenn sealed his fate.
Tangradi - Keep
Vitale - Keep
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Re: Let's play "Keep or Dump" - Forwards

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:49 pm

I must admit, if I was forced to trade one of the big 3 at this point, it would probably be Crosby. For me there are two huge factors working against Crosby, his health and his contract demands. It looks like he is past the stage of a simple hit giving him a concussion, but I still have great concern if he is to take another huge blow. Seeing how long it took for him to recover the first time around, I'm not sure what happens if he sustains another serious concussion. And because of that, I think the talk of Crosby getting more $$$ in his new contract is insane. I just can't see paying him more when it hurts the team overall, and you don't know his long term healthiness. Some other reasons: I'd be more willing to wait and see how next year goes, but after coming back, he seems to have lost his scoring touch again. 37 points in 22 games, but only 8 goals....I need to see more goal scoring from someone that is getting 9+ million a year. I'm also not happy that he didn't step up more in the playoffs, but that could be said about 90% of the roster at this point.

Why would I keep Malkin over Crosby? I think take away the injuries, Crosby is the better player. But with Sid's injury history, I would feel more comfortable paying Malkin more than he makes now on a new contract over Sid. I think Malkin is a better pure goal scorer with Sid. There are obvious negatives, like his penchant for taking penalties when teams get in his face, and his tendency to disappear at times. But I think Malkin would thrive more without Sid, whereas I don't think there would be much of a difference if Sid lost Malkin.

Why would I keep Staal over Sid? Age. Versatility. Potential. Playing style. I think Staal still has the potential to be a 30 goal scorer and 60-70 points. Unlike Staal or Malkin, he plays a more physical style, which this team needs in its top 6. Staal doesn't ever seem to disappear in games. He may go several games without scoring or getting his points, but usually he is a PK beast and playing well defensively. The money I am hearing for Staal is much easier for me to swallow right now. He's still extremely young. There aren't many great physical, defensive forwards in this league that have his point potential.

Crosby - Dump
Malkin - Keep
Staal - Keep
Neal - Keep
Kunitz - Keep
Dupuis - Keep
Cooke - Keep
Adams - Dump
Sullivan - Dump
Tangradi - Dump
Jeffrey - Dump
Park - Dump
Vitale - Keep
Asham - Dump
Kennedy - Keep
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