The Big 3 -- who goes?

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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:34 am

I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby pfim on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 am

Henry Hank wrote:I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.


Same with the Staal/Malkin for a defenseman thinking. You don't move one of the best players in the league when you have plenty of underachievers on the blueline.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 am

Henry Hank wrote:I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.


Finally some sanity!
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:41 am

pfim wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.


Same with the Staal/Malkin for a defenseman thinking. You don't move one of the best players in the league when you have plenty of underachievers on the blueline.


100% agree.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:42 am

kennedy, kunitz, cooke, dupuis

there's 10 million dollars of moveable assets you get rid of in a cap crisis before you even consider touching sid or geno
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby offsides on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:44 am

sil wrote:
In theory, you're right, but (if you don't mind me saying) you're viewing ths situation though blinders. In a capped NHL, where the limits of team spending may actually diminish over the next year or few (before we see rises again)...yeah, we can keep all 3 of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal...but our bottom 2 forward lines, and our defense will continue to be mediocre at best...highlighted primarily by a <$1,000,000 third line center, and a bunch of rookie defensemen forced to 'lead' a team into the playoffs with cup expectations. Crosby and Malkin will vie for Art Ross trophies, but we're not going anywhere of value with such an unbalanced and top-heavy team.


This is the problem I see with keeping everyone. I feel we would perform much better, especially come playoff time with a better balanced line-up. We need to roll 4 lines in tough games, not 3 1/2 or 3. I think we wore our selves out and it showed in game 6 at Philly. Keeping the big three limits the quality of players we can have on the third and fourth line and on defense.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:55 pm

offsides wrote:
sil wrote:
In theory, you're right, but (if you don't mind me saying) you're viewing ths situation though blinders. In a capped NHL, where the limits of team spending may actually diminish over the next year or few (before we see rises again)...yeah, we can keep all 3 of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal...but our bottom 2 forward lines, and our defense will continue to be mediocre at best...highlighted primarily by a <$1,000,000 third line center, and a bunch of rookie defensemen forced to 'lead' a team into the playoffs with cup expectations. Crosby and Malkin will vie for Art Ross trophies, but we're not going anywhere of value with such an unbalanced and top-heavy team.


This is the problem I see with keeping everyone. I feel we would perform much better, especially come playoff time with a better balanced line-up. We need to roll 4 lines in tough games, not 3 1/2 or 3. I think we wore our selves out and it showed in game 6 at Philly. Keeping the big three limits the quality of players we can have on the third and fourth line and on defense.


That and Shero's misfire on Martin and his contract.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:01 pm

shmenguin wrote:kennedy, kunitz, cooke, dupuis

there's 10 million dollars of moveable assets you get rid of in a cap crisis before you even consider touching sid or geno


Kunitz and Dupuis are top-6 players for us...Cooke and Kennedy are third liners. Who replaces these guys? Beau Bennett? Ben Street? Thompson? Viellieux? Some other band of UFA garbage? I'm not sure the answer to a cap crisis would be to keep Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Neal, and then fill out the rest of the spots with rookies, career AHL'ers or dummies full of styrofoam peanuts. Of course, we could always go the route the devils went back in the beginning of 2010-11 and just role with 9 forwards and 5 defensemen in each game.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:04 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
pfim wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.


Same with the Staal/Malkin for a defenseman thinking. You don't move one of the best players in the league when you have plenty of underachievers on the blueline.


100% agree.


So how do you move them? Letang's the only one without any NMC or NTC, and I doubt Shero'd be inclined to move him and keep Martin/Orpik. We may just have to start facing facts that this team can't get 'seriously' competitive until some of these bad contracts expire in 3 years. Of course it's possible that Martin starts playing like the guy Shero thought he was, and Orpik turns back into the guy he was in 2008 and 2009.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:07 pm

sil wrote:Kunitz and Dupuis are top-6 players for us...Cooke and Kennedy are third liners. Who replaces these guys? Beau Bennett? Ben Street? Thompson? Viellieux? Some other band of UFA garbage? I'm not sure the answer to a cap crisis would be to keep Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Neal, and then fill out the rest of the spots with rookies, career AHL'ers or dummies full of styrofoam peanuts.


well we're not getting rid of all 4. losing any 2 of those players is a better option than getting rid of a generational talent.

and it's not even close
Last edited by shmenguin on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby columbia on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:07 pm

sil wrote:
So how do you move them? Letang's the only one without any NMC or NTC, and I doubt Shero'd be inclined to move him and keep Martin/Orpik. We may just have to start facing facts that this team can't get 'seriously' competitive until some of these bad contracts expire in 3 years. Of course it's possible that Martin starts playing like the guy Shero thought he was, and Orpik turns back into the guy he was in 2008 and 2009.


You look player X straight in the eye and say, "We're extremely interested in trading you, to improve our team."
Players normally aren't interested in staying on a team, where they are not wanted.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:22 pm

After reading a ton of threads, about 20 articles and going through the Shero press conference, I think Geno is done here. I keep putting 2 and 2 together and that is the outcome I get every time. I think selling him now, when his value is the highest, makes the most sense.

I am not saying this is what I want, I am saying that this is probably going to happen.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:24 pm

The "Big 3" has recently become Crosby, Malkin, Neal.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:25 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:After reading a ton of threads, about 20 articles and going through the Shero press conference, I think Geno is done here. I keep putting 2 and 2 together and that is the outcome I get every time. I think selling him now, when his value is the highest, makes the most sense.

I am not saying this is what I want, I am saying that this is probably going to happen.


If it were going to happen, it would happen next offseason.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Streaks House on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:32 pm

Consider the evidence at hand that both scoring and power plays have been trending down since the lockout. Visually, it appears that obstruction and clutch/grab is creeping back into the NHL. Assuming this trend continues, I ask this: Of the 3 centers, who is better suited to thrive in this on-ice environment? I say Jordan Staal. Independent of other factors, who is this more detrimental to between Crosby and Malkin?
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:49 pm

Who is better suited to thrive in clutch and grab? Still the drastically more skilled, drastically quicker at accelerating, and faster players. Crosby and Malkin would still be far better than Staal.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:59 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Who is better suited to thrive in clutch and grab? Still the drastically more skilled, drastically quicker at accelerating, and faster players. Crosby and Malkin would still be far better than Staal.


Based on what I've seen from them, I'm not sure Crosby or Malkin are suited to thive against clutch and grab...they appear more suited to throw elbows at heads and push gloves away from opponents under clutch and grab...just my observations though.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:00 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:After reading a ton of threads, about 20 articles and going through the Shero press conference, I think Geno is done here. I keep putting 2 and 2 together and that is the outcome I get every time. I think selling him now, when his value is the highest, makes the most sense.

I am not saying this is what I want, I am saying that this is probably going to happen.


If it were going to happen, it would happen next offseason.


I would agree...unless the cap drops this coming summer.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:01 pm

columbia wrote:
sil wrote:
So how do you move them? Letang's the only one without any NMC or NTC, and I doubt Shero'd be inclined to move him and keep Martin/Orpik. We may just have to start facing facts that this team can't get 'seriously' competitive until some of these bad contracts expire in 3 years. Of course it's possible that Martin starts playing like the guy Shero thought he was, and Orpik turns back into the guy he was in 2008 and 2009.


You look player X straight in the eye and say, "We're extremely interested in trading you, to improve our team."
Players normally aren't interested in staying on a team, where they are not wanted.


That's certainly one way. Shero could soften the blow by having Neal there to compliment Paul's eggs.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Three Stars on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:44 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion ... ughts.html

22. Pittsburgh Penguins GM Ray Shero said in his season-closer that signing Sidney Crosby and Jordan Staal were priorities, although he didn't know if it could be accomplished without knowing the landscape. Both are one year away from unrestricted free agency. There are a surprising amount of people who think Staal wants a bigger challenge and more responsibility, which won't make him easy to sign. I'm not sure he's a No. 1 centre, but he'd be an outstanding No. 2 and there would be a ton of interest.

23. Shero has also said on numerous occasions that versatility is critical in the salary-cap era. They don't come much more versatile than Staal. Prediction: He only gets dealt if he makes it hard for the Penguins to sign him. I'd hate to be the one trading this guy.


As would I.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Guinness on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:10 am

Three Stars wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/04/luongo-trade-talk-30-thoughts.html

22. Pittsburgh Penguins GM Ray Shero said in his season-closer that signing Sidney Crosby and Jordan Staal were priorities, although he didn't know if it could be accomplished without knowing the landscape. Both are one year away from unrestricted free agency. There are a surprising amount of people who think Staal wants a bigger challenge and more responsibility, which won't make him easy to sign. I'm not sure he's a No. 1 centre, but he'd be an outstanding No. 2 and there would be a ton of interest.

23. Shero has also said on numerous occasions that versatility is critical in the salary-cap era. They don't come much more versatile than Staal. Prediction: He only gets dealt if he makes it hard for the Penguins to sign him. I'd hate to be the one trading this guy.


As would I.


I wouldn't want to be Ray Shero at all right now. This is a huge issue, especially without the certainty of a CBA with a number of years left to run.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby NJ5934 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:32 am

What this team really needs is a Chara, Weber type. A true physical, shutdown, 28 minutes a night guy that can log a ton of PP time. I would be willing to part with one of the big three for that. If it were me, and I know how crazy it is, I would move Malkin and go forward with Sid, Staal and Neal as the core of forwards.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby penny lane on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:13 am

Team cannot move Evgeni(art ross multiple~ hart) until they see on ice, that Sidney can be counted on for a full season. Jordan is a clutch performer, and I don't want him to leave either.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby sil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:04 am

Henry Hank wrote:I don't get the thinking that if the cap goes down by $1-2 million, you are forced to trade one of the stars. Uh, if that happens, you freaking move someone like Tyler Kennedy, not one of the best players in the league.


If the cap falls to $62,400,000 next season...

Malkin $8,700,000
Crosby $8,700,000 (NTC kicks in this coming season)
Neal $5,000,000
Staal $4,000,000
Kunitz $3,725,000
Kennedy $2,000,000
Cooke $1,800,000
Dupuis $1,500,000
Tangradi (guessing? - $700,000)
Adams $675,000
Vitale $550,000
Jeffrey $575,000
UFA

Martin $5,000,000 (NMC, NTC)
Michalek $4,000,000 (NTC)
Orpik $3,750,000 (NTC)
Letang $3,500,000
Niskanen (guessing? - $1,800,000)
Engellend $566,667
Lovejoy $525,000

Fleury $5,000,000
UFA

That's $62,066,667 which leaves $333,333 in cap room for a back up goalie, a top-6 forward, and the necessary wiggle room for callups (about $750,000)...so basically we're sitting in the hole with two roster spots unfilled. We could trade Kennedy and free up $2,000,000...but our Kennedy replacement, top-6 forward, and back-up goalie would each still have to average at about league minimum salary just to stay a little below the cap (so still really no wiggle room for call-ups...which means guys with minor injuries forced to go on LTIR). Replaceing Niskanen with Despres saves another $1,000,000...so that would allow the backup goalie and Kennedy replacement to be league minimum players, and would leave about $2,000,000 to find a top-6 winger.

I'm not saying that a 2M drop in the cap 100% means that Malkin or Crosby will get moved...but as you can see above, it's easier said to work around it than done. Obviously someone taking Martin off our hands would certainly help a lot...or you simply hope and pray that the cap stays where its at (at the very least) or goes up.
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Re: The Big 3 -- who goes?

Postby Nizzy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:14 am

Neal Malkin 4th-Liner
4th-Liner Crosby 4th-Liner
4th-Liner Staal 4th-Liner
4th-Liner 4th-Liner 4th-Liner

2009 quality defense (not 2010, not 2012, maybe 2011 was good enough)

MAF

= Cup chance every year.



We won the cup with GUERIN, DUPUIS, TALBOT, FEDOTENKO, SYKORA, KENNEDY, COOKE as our top 9 wingers. This team needs Staal to stay, and the only upgrades we need are defense/a more defensive system.

It's really that simple, none of the big 3 have to go...
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