Food for thought

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Re: Food for thought

Postby Hawkeynut on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:38 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Hawkeynut wrote:Last 4 cup champs out in the 1st round...
The three cup champs before them didn't even make the playoffs....

Just sayin'!


Dude, I agree with that but people are acting like that is the reason we lost. It just seemed pretty obvious to me the reason we lost is because we were not
good enough to win.


It seemed pretty obvious to me that they are good enough to win (all season long), just didn't quite have the maturity to win in the playoffs.

2010 loss in 2nd to Montreal - was from a very tired Pens club
2011 loss in 1st round to TBay - let's face it, we had our farm club out there.
2012 loss in 1st round to Philly - mental meltdown by captain + we don't need to play system to win, we can win because we are talented.

Baring the injury Gods not wreaking havoc on our roster again, next season you will see a much more determined, mature club than you have ever seen. Some of you folks have to realize that the core of this team is still in the 24-27 year old range and they still have to learn alot of things.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:52 am

Hawkeynut wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Hawkeynut wrote:Last 4 cup champs out in the 1st round...
The three cup champs before them didn't even make the playoffs....

Just sayin'!


Dude, I agree with that but people are acting like that is the reason we lost. It just seemed pretty obvious to me the reason we lost is because we were not
good enough to win.


It seemed pretty obvious to me that they are good enough to win (all season long), just didn't quite have the maturity to win in the playoffs.

2010 loss in 2nd to Montreal - was from a very tired Pens club
2011 loss in 1st round to TBay - let's face it, we had our farm club out there.
2012 loss in 1st round to Philly - mental meltdown by captain + we don't need to play system to win, we can win because we are talented.

Baring the injury Gods not wreaking havoc on our roster again, next season you will see a much more determined, mature club than you have ever seen. Some of you folks have to realize that the core of this team is still in the 24-27 year old range and they still have to learn alot of things.


I just dont understand the maturity aspect as an excuse? The "core" group has been to two finals and won a cup. They have one of the oldest rosters in the league overall. The core has been together for 6 years. How is the mental make up going to change? Just looks like people making excuses for an overrated roster.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby interstorm on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:20 am

Good thread, OP...

I think people are taking this loss to hard. First off, look at the Eastern Conference - every series (except ours) went 7 games. That just shows how close teams are. This isn't the 80's anymore - there really aren't any mega-power house teams that one can count on to go all the way. For the most part, a bounce here, a non-call there -- that can decide a game and swing momentum. If Briere was call off-sides in game 1 who knows where the series would have gone!!!

Now I do agree that there was "more" to this loss than a typical one. The Pens didn't just lose, they lost in a catastrophic way. I think there are a lot of things/people to justifiably blame...but more than anything, I think the Penguins just didn't match up well against the Flyers -- both physically and (even more) mentally. The way everyone would panic on the ice, it almost seemed like they had lost belief in themselves. I think a lot of that came from the season series againt Philly -- especially starting with the OT loss in the last few seconds of overtime. It may sound silly, but keep in mind how superstitious professional players are (read "the game" for more info on that) -- I think they players had prophetic feeling of loss the moment Philly started scoring in game 1 and they just crumbled. By the time they shook that off and started playing for pride, they were in a hole that history proves is really tough to get out of.

I think this team does need some adjustments, especially on D (this almost appears necessary due to the prospects we have waiting to make the jump up to the big club) . I absolutely do not want to hear about anyone in the core going. As far as I am concerned, I'll stand by them and want them on this team as long as they are still a Penguin (I may want them even if they aren't). As fans, we really like to believe that players love a city and love those who cheer for them -- that we make a difference and that we are in the equation somewhere (other than simply funding the multi-billion dollar endeavor). When I hear people dreaming and demanding trades for Geno, Staal or Sid (are you crazy), I wonder what these players (i.e. other human beings) think. The more "talk" there is about Staal, the more likely he will feel disconnected for the fan base and willing to leave (also possibly less willing to take a home-town discount).

Nobody liked the way Jagr left town -- but if we kick someone enough times when they are down (and believe me, right now everyone on the team is down), I wouldn't be surprised to see less of a "do it for the team/fans/city" approach and more of a "i have to do what is right for me" mentality.

...that's not good...

so let realize that the penguins were good and easily could have went far. they didn't. it happens. if we could replay this series 10 times, do people really think the flyers would win all 10? i don't. if you feel that the pens WOULD win some, they you have to agree that they COULD have won this series.

retool the D (to a degree) and get 'em next year (with the core all intact)
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Re: Food for thought

Postby topshelf66 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:49 am

We lost because we were in essence an all star team. All the talent with poorly defined roles or commitment to the roles. A full year with healthy stars will help reestablish roles.

Comparisons to the Wings are valid. They also had a complete meltdown against the Kings after their back to back cups. Also, after 1996 many fans wanted to blow it up because thier 32 year old captian had not delivered. They were swept I the 95 final and lost the CF in1996. "blow it up, we are regressing".

With a very good team over 14 years, they won 4 cups. It usually does not happen.

My biggest disappointment was lack of poise in this series.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby sil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:00 pm

topshelf66 wrote:We lost because we were in essence an all star team.


Not one penguin was all-star caliber in terms of playing defense against the Flyers...not one.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby offsides on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 pm

sil wrote:
topshelf66 wrote:We lost because we were in essence an all star team.


Not one penguin was all-star caliber in terms of playing defense against the Flyers...not one.


All Stars don't play defense, just sayin.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:32 pm

interstorm wrote:Good thread, OP...

I think people are taking this loss to hard. First off, look at the Eastern Conference - every series (except ours) went 7 games. That just shows how close teams are. This isn't the 80's anymore - there really aren't any mega-power house teams that one can count on to go all the way. For the most part, a bounce here, a non-call there -- that can decide a game and swing momentum. If Briere was call off-sides in game 1 who knows where the series would have gone!!!

Now I do agree that there was "more" to this loss than a typical one. The Pens didn't just lose, they lost in a catastrophic way. I think there are a lot of things/people to justifiably blame...but more than anything, I think the Penguins just didn't match up well against the Flyers -- both physically and (even more) mentally. The way everyone would panic on the ice, it almost seemed like they had lost belief in themselves. I think a lot of that came from the season series againt Philly -- especially starting with the OT loss in the last few seconds of overtime. It may sound silly, but keep in mind how superstitious professional players are (read "the game" for more info on that) -- I think they players had prophetic feeling of loss the moment Philly started scoring in game 1 and they just crumbled. By the time they shook that off and started playing for pride, they were in a hole that history proves is really tough to get out of.

I think this team does need some adjustments, especially on D (this almost appears necessary due to the prospects we have waiting to make the jump up to the big club) . I absolutely do not want to hear about anyone in the core going. As far as I am concerned, I'll stand by them and want them on this team as long as they are still a Penguin (I may want them even if they aren't). As fans, we really like to believe that players love a city and love those who cheer for them -- that we make a difference and that we are in the equation somewhere (other than simply funding the multi-billion dollar endeavor). When I hear people dreaming and demanding trades for Geno, Staal or Sid (are you crazy), I wonder what these players (i.e. other human beings) think. The more "talk" there is about Staal, the more likely he will feel disconnected for the fan base and willing to leave (also possibly less willing to take a home-town discount).

Nobody liked the way Jagr left town -- but if we kick someone enough times when they are down (and believe me, right now everyone on the team is down), I wouldn't be surprised to see less of a "do it for the team/fans/city" approach and more of a "i have to do what is right for me" mentality.

...that's not good...

so let realize that the penguins were good and easily could have went far. they didn't. it happens. if we could replay this series 10 times, do people really think the flyers would win all 10? i don't. if you feel that the pens WOULD win some, they you have to agree that they COULD have won this series.

retool the D (to a degree) and get 'em next year (with the core all intact)


The difference in parity is those other series are not going 7 games with teams giving up record amounts of goals. The are all sound teams throughout, the Pens need changes in personnel period.
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Re: Food for thought

Postby darkstar57 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:39 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:The difference in parity is those other series are not going 7 games with teams giving up record amounts of goals. The are all sound teams throughout, the Pens need changes in personnel period.


Other teams in the eastern conference are nowhere o the same level as the pens ad flyer in terms of offensive forwards (maybe boston) and the chaces of both us and the flyers of keeping all the talent is going to be tough in a cap era. That is parity, look up the definition of the word.

also you say the pens need changes in personnel, what changes??? all you do it shoot down others ideas, what are your changes? What are your suggestions
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Re: Food for thought

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:07 pm

darkstar57 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:The difference in parity is those other series are not going 7 games with teams giving up record amounts of goals. The are all sound teams throughout, the Pens need changes in personnel period.


Other teams in the eastern conference are nowhere o the same level as the pens ad flyer in terms of offensive forwards (maybe boston) and the chaces of both us and the flyers of keeping all the talent is going to be tough in a cap era. That is parity, look up the definition of the word.

also you say the pens need changes in personnel, what changes??? all you do it shoot down others ideas, what are your changes? What are your suggestions


I already explained above that unless they can trade some guys that right now that are not all that tradable there is not much they can do. Plus what ideas am I shooting down? Your ideas are basically keep the same team but promote 2 guys to full time duty that couldn't crack the lineup last year and that players like Kennedy are effective enough. Other ideas are just to be mentally prepared.

I think people are looking for reasons and overestimating some of our players talent when the reasons for the loss and what we need to do moving forward are simple. When we won the cup Kunitz scored one goal but was a d-men's worst nightmare, Staal was used in an actual 3rd line checking role, Adams could still kill penalties, talbot type player was perfect for second line and our defense was 6 deep in guysnwhomwere never out of position.

It's never going to be perfect but we are two years away depending on the CBA on when we can start actually retooling.
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