The Goats

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

The Goats

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:05 pm

I took a couple days to absorb what happened so I didn't merely speak out of emotion. The only conclusion I can came up with is that I am utterly disgusted. Make no mistake. This was a disgusting performance by everybody involved from the players to the coaches to the general manager. We were exposed as having multiple problems that began in the regular season and continued throughout the series. Points that need to be stressed:

- Refeeres and the idea of 'human error' during playoffs has to be addressed by the league. Teams are so evenly matched that a single call can turn a series, which is exactly what happened with the offside goal that forced game 1 into OT after a 3-3 tie in regulation. We won that game. Take the refeering mistake out and we win 3-2 and things look much different. Game-changing calls during playoffs simply can't happen. Have a guy in Toronto call down and correct the mistake. However badly we played, to me, the series ended 3-3.

- As good as Giroux is, he cannot outshine Crosby or Malkin. I didn't like their performance. Malkin with the ill-advised penalties and Sid being unable to bring out his magic. We can blame the players themselves or focus on Dan Bylsma who was seemingly outcoached in the series, as the Flyers have a knack for clogging the middle and forcing us to the outside where we shoot with little chance of scoring. It's probably a combination of the two, but they needed to be better.

- Fleury is a goalie that plays well behind a solid group of defenseman and quickly loses his confidence when our D does not play well. While I still believe in Fleury, he did not play up to his standard and there is no sugar-coating it. Should have been relieved at some point, although due to lack of a reliable backup goaltender, this was an impossibility.

- Below-average defensemen. I am horrified that Ray Shero put this group together. This was the worst collection of D we have had in many years, lacking skill, size, and physical play. They were outworked and outmuscled by the Flyers. One particular goal in the final game where Michalek failed to tie up a stronger Flyer's stick in front of our net is a good example. If that is Gill or Grossman there, the Flyer does not score. Forget about Martin because he should be traded for a Gatorade bottle.

- I hate to be saying this because of my like for Dan Bylsma, but our lack of a system counteracting what the other team was doing was apparent, as was the worst PK that I possibly ever saw since I began watching hockey. Still not enough success on the PP featuring Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Lack of team structure, composure (those needless penalties), and accountability (thank you Henry for your post.. it was right on the money) has me thinking that something needs to change, even if Dan remains as head coach but a guy like Rick Tocchet comes in as an assistant who isn't afraid of hurting players' feelings and get in their face when times call for it. A new PP and PK approach needs to be developed because the Flyers have our number. It looked like sometime during the series Penguins began to copy Flyers' wider PP setup and were able to get better shots on net, but the PK remained atrocious.

- I don't understand why Crosby does not play on the PK with his vision and speed, and Staal with his size and improved shot on the PP.

- I give Ray Shero the #1 Goat Award. As I wrote a few weeks ago, areas of needed improvement have been apparent all season. They were not corrected. I don't recall a single trade this year. Shero must feel that it is OK to be #27 in size. Ever since an early Sharks game, it was clear we needed to beef up at boths ends. We had problems penetrating Flyers' bigger D all year and the same is true at the other end where our D cannot displace anyone from the crease. The lack of an additional PP quarterback and threat on the defensive end who can join in and fire the puck has been with our team for 2 years. Looking at Pens' D alone, I can't help but feel that Shero has lost his marbles. He replaced two solid shutdown defensemen with two guys who would have no role on my team in any shape or form. My philosophy is that if you're not going to put people on their behind, contribute offensively. If you can't score, you better be physical and reliable on defense. Martin and Michalek do neither.

Fleury struggled in the playoffs, yet we could not remove him because there was no viable alternative.

Lack of hard work may be attributed to a complacent coach, but little desire in players' hearts has to fall partly on Shero. I thought we came out flat in game 6. There were easy pieces to pick out for trade all year. Something that was not done. If he planned on making a change on deadline day, he failed and has no one to blame but himself. I'm sure if I looked at my old posts dating back to the time of his hire, I would find some where I argued that he does not work quickly enough. I wrote in his support earlier in the year in that he does not overspend and isn't prone to being tricked, yet, at the same time, the man waits all year in hope of making a splash on last day. There has to be some middle ground there. This was a small, soft, team long removed from being the defensive juggernaut of a few seasons' ago that blocked shots and played tenacious hockey for 60 minutes.

Flyers' Paul Holmgren may occasionally make a mistake where a player doesn't fully work out (Bryzgalov), but he is quick to act in identifying a weaknesss and addressing it. Replace Michalek or Martin with Grossman and our D immediately looks better. Grossman was available to anyone interested. Holmgren understands the importance of size at forward, which is why they now feature Simmonds in addition to Hartnell. Voracek is big. Jagr is big. Couturier and Schenn are big.

The Flyers will be better next year. Their young players will be better. They will have Meszaros back and likely buy Pronger out and add a solid defenseman. Would not surprise me to see them offer JVR and Bobrovski. This seems like such a wasted opportunity for another legitimate run at the cup. Teams in the East are struggling. Boston can't score. Caps aren't a threat. Rangers don't scare me and we've owned them all season. Flyers have goaltending issues. Who knows how things will shape up next year.

It will be a shame if after all is said and done, we'll have 1 or 2 cups while featuring two generational talents in Crosby and Malkin, instead of 3 or 4, because the GM cannot build a full roster. Remember that dynasty talk? Ray Shero will have to answer one day.

Without taking credit away from the Flyers who have a deep and talented group of forwards and are well-coached, this was a winnable series. I don't necessarily think it was the Flyers that beat us. We played so badly early on, allowing 20 goals in 3 games, that our team is more to blame for what happened. The guys have already acknowledged it in their interviews. I doubt that Flyers will score so many goals on anybody else for the rest of the playoffs and that is our problem.

This was an ugly series. Ugly hockey. Too many mistakes uncharacteristic to both teams, but I will say that we did not deserve to win based on our play. I am very disappointed.

BTW, I know Ray Shero cannot pinpoint blame on any specific player, especially if he is hoping to trade him, but Bylsma and Orpik gave a pretty good indication in their interviews that they didn't feel we were hard enough on the Flyers (in our zone). Lack of size and physical play is an enormous issue for us on the blue line.

One last thing. Shero and Bylsma can point to a lot of success during regular season, including the PK, stats, defensive ranking a year ago with similar roster, but what one has to factor in for the playoffs are match-ups. That must play a role when acquiring players and developing a gameplan. Flyers built specifically to beat us and it was a success. Congratulations to them, regardless of how far they'll go in the playoffs.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,286
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: The Goats

Postby skullman80 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:31 pm

I can't believe people are pointing to that offside call as the reason the Pens lost game 1. They were still up 3-1 at that point. No excuses. Using that as a big reason the Pens lost is lame. Crap happens. Pens got a gift in the 1st period of that game with the Dupuis goal when the ref waived off an icing that shouldn't have been waived off.
skullman80
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,597
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: New Kensington, PA

Re: The Goats

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:41 pm

skullman80 wrote:I can't believe people are pointing to that offside call as the reason the Pens lost game 1. They were still up 3-1 at that point. No excuses. Using that as a big reason the Pens lost is lame. Crap happens. Pens got a gift in the 1st period of that game with the Dupuis goal when the ref waived off an icing that shouldn't have been waived off.


It's not an excuse. It's a fact that the Flyers were awarded an extra goal that happened to be the deciding factor. Doesn't matter we played bad. Object of the game is to score goals, not be 'given'.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,286
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: The Goats

Postby penny lane on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:45 pm

Insert penguin roster. A bad match up going in. They changed power strat, 2 forwards, leads to shorties. Goaltending did make not the key saves(except five/four) to regain composure. Composure, they never had it.

I scoffed at the peaking too early notion; I'm a goat too.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,473
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Summer sunshine heals!

Re: The Goats

Postby skullman80 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:50 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
skullman80 wrote:I can't believe people are pointing to that offside call as the reason the Pens lost game 1. They were still up 3-1 at that point. No excuses. Using that as a big reason the Pens lost is lame. Crap happens. Pens got a gift in the 1st period of that game with the Dupuis goal when the ref waived off an icing that shouldn't have been waived off.


It's not an excuse. It's a fact that the Flyers were awarded an extra goal that happened to be the deciding factor. Doesn't matter we played bad. Object of the game is to score goals, not be 'given'.


Well the Pens were given a gift goal that game too... so it was even that way.

Plus no matter what.. still up 3-1 when that happened. Minor in the grand scheme of things.
skullman80
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,597
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: New Kensington, PA

Re: The Goats

Postby jeffshly on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:00 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Refeeres and the idea of 'human error' during playoffs has to be addressed by the league. Teams are so evenly matched that a single call can turn a series, which is exactly what happened with the offside goal that forced game 1 into OT after a 3-3 tie in regulation. We won that game. Take the refeering mistake out and we win 3-2 and things look much different. Game-changing calls during playoffs simply can't happen. Have a guy in Toronto call down and correct the mistake. However badly we played, to me, the series ended 3-3.


Seems like a lot of thought went into your opinions and post. Unfortunately, I didn't read anything beyond the above quote because, at that point, you lost all credibility with me.
jeffshly
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:47 am

Re: The Goats

Postby itissteeltime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:05 pm

jeffshly wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:Refeeres and the idea of 'human error' during playoffs has to be addressed by the league. Teams are so evenly matched that a single call can turn a series, which is exactly what happened with the offside goal that forced game 1 into OT after a 3-3 tie in regulation. We won that game. Take the refeering mistake out and we win 3-2 and things look much different. Game-changing calls during playoffs simply can't happen. Have a guy in Toronto call down and correct the mistake. However badly we played, to me, the series ended 3-3.


Seems like a lot of thought went into your opinions and post. Unfortunately, I didn't read anything beyond the above quote because, at that point, you lost all credibility with me.


Disagree. To clarify, I agree with Sarcastic.
itissteeltime
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,295
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Raven/Capital Land

Re: The Goats

Postby penny lane on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:14 pm

much made about Gene against Courtier, see 1993, rookie, 5'10 darius k, shutdown and annoyed Mario.
Mario in the penalty box when the pens tied it up in the 7th game.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,473
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Summer sunshine heals!

Re: The Goats

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:34 pm

skullman80 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
skullman80 wrote:I can't believe people are pointing to that offside call as the reason the Pens lost game 1. They were still up 3-1 at that point. No excuses. Using that as a big reason the Pens lost is lame. Crap happens. Pens got a gift in the 1st period of that game with the Dupuis goal when the ref waived off an icing that shouldn't have been waived off.


It's not an excuse. It's a fact that the Flyers were awarded an extra goal that happened to be the deciding factor. Doesn't matter we played bad. Object of the game is to score goals, not be 'given'.


Well the Pens were given a gift goal that game too... so it was even that way.

Plus no matter what.. still up 3-1 when that happened. Minor in the grand scheme of things.


If that is game 7, OT, in the finals and we lose the Cup based on that goal.. are you OK with it? It's a simple question.

I don't think it is OK to accept a blown call because we were 3-0 at that point. It is also why a single unearned goal cannot be allowed in the playoffs. I do not understand why anybody would argue for allowing 'mistakes' by the refs in a sporting event. It is beyond crazy, IMO.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,286
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: The Goats

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:36 pm

jeffshly wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:Refeeres and the idea of 'human error' during playoffs has to be addressed by the league. Teams are so evenly matched that a single call can turn a series, which is exactly what happened with the offside goal that forced game 1 into OT after a 3-3 tie in regulation. We won that game. Take the refeering mistake out and we win 3-2 and things look much different. Game-changing calls during playoffs simply can't happen. Have a guy in Toronto call down and correct the mistake. However badly we played, to me, the series ended 3-3.


Seems like a lot of thought went into your opinions and post. Unfortunately, I didn't read anything beyond the above quote because, at that point, you lost all credibility with me.


I never read your posts anyway.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,286
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: The Goats

Postby pittsports87 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:47 pm

baaaaaaaa
pittsports87
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,399
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: College

Re: The Goats

Postby skullman80 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:00 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
skullman80 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
skullman80 wrote:I can't believe people are pointing to that offside call as the reason the Pens lost game 1. They were still up 3-1 at that point. No excuses. Using that as a big reason the Pens lost is lame. Crap happens. Pens got a gift in the 1st period of that game with the Dupuis goal when the ref waived off an icing that shouldn't have been waived off.


It's not an excuse. It's a fact that the Flyers were awarded an extra goal that happened to be the deciding factor. Doesn't matter we played bad. Object of the game is to score goals, not be 'given'.


Well the Pens were given a gift goal that game too... so it was even that way.

Plus no matter what.. still up 3-1 when that happened. Minor in the grand scheme of things.


If that is game 7, OT, in the finals and we lose the Cup based on that goal.. are you OK with it? It's a simple question.

I don't think it is OK to accept a blown call because we were 3-0 at that point. It is also why a single unearned goal cannot be allowed in the playoffs. I do not understand why anybody would argue for allowing 'mistakes' by the refs in a sporting event. It is beyond crazy, IMO.


Would I be ok with it? I'd be upset, really upset, but I accept human error in sports. It's just something that happens. There's always going to be the human element in play. Unless you want to have replay for every little thing I guess.
skullman80
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,597
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: New Kensington, PA

Re: The Goats

Postby farnham16 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:28 pm

#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.
farnham16
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,398
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Trying to get to my game

Re: The Goats

Postby itissteeltime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:45 pm

farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


What did he do wrong?
itissteeltime
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,295
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Raven/Capital Land

Re: The Goats

Postby Kaizer on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:53 pm

itissteeltime wrote:
farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


What did he do wrong?


the same thing the other 29 NHL coaches that wont win the cup did wrong. they should all be fired.
Kaizer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,285
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:02 am
Location: Crazy Town

Re: The Goats

Postby itissteeltime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:58 pm

Kaizer wrote:
itissteeltime wrote:
farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


What did he do wrong?


the same thing the other 29 NHL coaches that wont win the cup did wrong. they should all be fired.


:thumb:
itissteeltime
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,295
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Raven/Capital Land

Re: The Goats

Postby farnham16 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:59 pm

itissteeltime wrote:
farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


What did he do wrong?


Where to even begin?

I'll just focus on the disaster that was the PK. There are a lot of reasons the Pens didn't win. Probably the biggest was the failure on the PK. The Penguins gave up 12 PP goals in 6 games. I'll say it again, 12 goals. A lot of teams don't even score 12 goals in an entire series. The Flyers were doing everything they wanted to do on the PP. East / West passes, one timers, shots from the point, plays off the rush, getting garbage in front of the net, everything worked for them. The Pens PK were like a deer in the headlights. Tell me everytime Philly got on the PP that you didn't think they were going to score. The Pens PK'ers, while mostly great during the regular season, were simply not getting the job done. Staal wasn't winning faceoffs, Adams, Cooke and Dupuis weren't getting the puck out, and Orpik wasn't moving people around in front of MAF. It shouldn't matter how good the PK was during the season or who played on the PK during the season, if those guys are getting mugged out there then you make adjustments. Bylsma made none. The Pens kept on throwing the same guys out there and having them play the same passive PK system. Why not throw out Sid or Geno to try to throw the Flyer PP off? At least that would have been something different. So what if it didn't work, nothing else was and at least you could say you tried something different. Sid or Geno could have made their PP more passive, who knows. But Bylsma was just incredibly stubborn. For what reason? I have no idea. But it was just awful, awful coaching.
farnham16
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,398
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Trying to get to my game

Re: The Goats

Postby RxBandit66 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:00 pm

farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


One thing he could have done was display a little gamesmanship when Martin was concussed by Schenn. If Bylsma makes a point to be vocal about the hit in the media, he could have at least bought a couple of calls that would have gone the Pens' way. But as usual, he just did nothing. Just stared blankly with that deer in the headlights look.

For the record, I have never liked Bylsma, even when he won the Jack Adams. But I cannot blame the loss on him when Fleury could not make one lousy save when the team needed it. It was not Bylsma's fault that Kunitz took a penalty every other shift. It wasn't Bylsma's fault that Sullivan and Lovejoy made two of the worst turnovers I've ever seen in pro hockey that directly led goals against.

For the love of God, I hope they don't trade Staal or Malkin. If they want to shake things up or make an example of somebody, start with the defense. And for cyring out loud, let Johnson, Adams, and Asham go!
RxBandit66
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,813
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Kittanning

Re: The Goats

Postby Chefpatrick871 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:03 pm

Goats are also used for lawn care.

Oops wrong thread.
Chefpatrick871
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,135
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:56 pm
Location: Eating muffins with Derpy

Re: The Goats

Postby offsides on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:05 pm

Kaizer wrote:
itissteeltime wrote:
farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


What did he do wrong?


the same thing the other 29 NHL coaches that wont win the cup did wrong. they should all be fired.


He did have a slight advantage, Crosby\Malkin. Just my opinion, but he could have done better but I will accept whatever the Pens decide. I am just a knucklehead posting on a message board.
offsides
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,393
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Man Cave in Washington, PA

Re: The Goats

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:18 pm

One thing he could have done was display a little gamesmanship when Martin was concussed by Schenn. If Bylsma makes a point to be vocal about the hit in the media, he could have at least bought a couple of calls that would have gone the Pens' way. But as usual, he just did nothing. Just stared blankly with that deer in the headlights look.


This is actually a very very interesting point. We did have 3 suspensions in the series compared to 0 for the flyers. You have to wonder if Dan discloses Martin's concussion if the league then also suspends Schenn. It is very well known that injury as a result of an illegal hit is highly considered when deciding the outcome of a play.
lemieuxReturns
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,108
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:00 pm

Re: The Goats

Postby BigMcK on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:11 pm

When I wish for the Penguins to emulate the Flyers, or look up to them, I'll become a Flyers fan.

How many Cups have the FLyers won since, ummmmm, 1975, is it? And the Penguins? Right, I'll remain a Pens fan. Even with all of the frustration over the early exit.
BigMcK
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,987
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:23 pm
Location: Are you there, yet?

Re: The Goats

Postby Southern Fan on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:19 pm

The whole Crosby return (if/when) messed up the timing of prepping for the playoffs and getting a player at trade deadline.

Fooling around with a five forward power play in the final ten games contributed to short hand goal opportunities.

Figuring out line combos also messed with five man units.

Not knowing if sid would be back at the trade deadline may have influenced Shero trade choices.

Wished we would have lost those two devils games.
Southern Fan
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:51 am

Re: The Goats

Postby penny lane on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:58 pm

"Why it unraveled in 10 days, that's my job to try and figure out," Shero said.


GMRS has plenty of people to help him. :o :? :twisted:
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,473
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Summer sunshine heals!

Re: The Goats

Postby wondermoose on Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:55 pm

farnham16 wrote:#1 Goat for me is Bylsma. One of the worst coaching jobs I can remember.


There were two things Bylsma could have done:

1) Stick with the gameplan that got them to where they were, or
2) Change everything and hope the players can adjust.

Personally, I'm glad Bylsma stuck to his guns. The system works, but the execution was.... unprofessional. This series goes on the players and the players alone. Now, if you think the system is flawed in general, then that's something else.
wondermoose
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,854
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:18 am

Next

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jim, neophool and 7 guests

e-mail