Why soooooo many complaints about....

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Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby RentedMule66 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:55 pm

"the system". When HCDB took over for Theirrien (sp), everyone went nuts over how great his system is for this team. Puck possession, cycling down low, and getting it out of our end asap was perfect for the skill set we had. Theirriens system stiffled us while Bylsma set us free....We have a very good regular season with many injuries and an 11 game winning streak towards the end of the season, and totally suck in this years playoffs. Why is it the system all of a sudden and not solely personnel??....the system seemed fine in 08 and 09. Same system for years, but different personnel. I just don't think concept is the problem compared to execution.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby canaan on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:07 pm

Because of the clutching and grabbing revival in the league?
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby blurryhaze312 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 pm

I don't know if this supports or refutes your stance, but I think once the team got healthy and in the playoffs they (players and coaching staff) relied too much on their skill and not enough on hard work.

In the regular season they had a good mix of both because they weren't entirely healthy. In the regular season you can also rely on just skill more times than not, unlike the playoffs.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby Fire0nice228 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:09 pm

It was pretty obvious to see defensive deficiencies such as odd man breaks and breakaways happening every game with no adjustment from DB. Even during the win streak..8-4 win over WPG with chance after chance after chance, the NSH game they missed like 3 back door tap ins, etc. etc. Why the hell is Engo doing things like leading a rush and jumping up into the offense? Guy skates like hes in mud and handles the puck like a grenade. Things like that. DB let them get a little tooooo free in my opinion and its slowly gotten worse since FHCMT left. He needs to reign them in a little bit and its all good.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:49 pm

I look at the defense: Martin, Michalek, Letang, Orpik <= these aren't bad players

... but all these players have played defense poorly in the system. I know some posters are clamoring for a shut-down pair, but I don't think they would've helped this year because they never played shut-down hockey.

Last year they had to play some defensive hockey with the stars out and all of these players played well. With everyone healthy this year "the system" showed no defense.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby KG on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:56 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:I look at the defense: Martin, Michalek, Letang, Orpik <= these aren't bad players

... but all these players have played defense poorly in the system. I know some posters are clamoring for a shut-down pair, but I don't think they would've helped this year because they never played shut-down hockey.

Last year they had to play some defensive hockey with the stars out and all of these players played well. With everyone healthy this year "the system" showed no defense.


Agreed...it's the system...

And to answer the original post. Why so many complaints about the system? because the pens were exposed and looked like crap. DB did not make any in-series adjustments to his vaunted "system." If his system included giving up 12 power play goals in 6 games...then he did a great job!
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby orpchar on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:08 pm

blurryhaze312 wrote:in the playoffs they (players and coaching staff) relied too much on their skill and not enough on hard work.


:thumb:

This was the cause of the Pens downfall, more so than personnel or tactics. I'm not sure what Bylsma's "system" is exactly, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve standing around, puck watching, while your man stands next to the net.

I do believe that Bylsma needed to make some adjustments on the PK, but a majority of goals in this series were due to a lack of focus and attention to team defense.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby columbia on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:12 pm

Why the hell is Engo doing things like leading a rush and jumping up into the offense?


Because that is the basis of the system and we saw little to indicate that DB disagreed with such actions.
It's seem clear DB doesn't understand the concept of appropriately reigning it in and I expect to see similar results next April.

It's not like this is new, either.
Go back to January and see people complaining about Martin getting caught up ice after pinching in....that what's he was **** required to do in DB's system.

EDIT: My anger is at DB, not any posters. :)
Last edited by columbia on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby joker10277 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:17 pm

The system they won the cup with is not what their playing now, DB turned the guys loose a little when he took over for MT, but they still played with defensive structure. DB's system that he put in after that is an absolute failure in the post season, played it for 3 years, got bounced every year.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby RentedMule66 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:35 pm

joker10277 wrote:The system they won the cup with is not what their playing now, DB turned the guys loose a little when he took over for MT, but they still played with defensive structure. DB's system that he put in after that is an absolute failure in the post season, played it for 3 years, got bounced every year.


Maybe you're right...they are going a little (way) overboard with the pinching and getting caught up ice, etc. I certainly agree with the other posters that bring up the key point that it doesn't matter what system you play, you won't beat a beer league team when you stand around and don't bust your jackwagon!
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby wondermoose on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:35 pm

Good players play well regardless of the "system." Somethig has happened to Martin in that he has no redeemable qualities as a defenseman anymore. That's not the systems fault.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby pugilist13 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:47 pm

Sometimes you pound square pegs into round holes. Martin and Z come from solid defensive systems that generated their chances off of turnovers,etc. Those guys played in methodical systems, almost robotic at times. Their not suited to play the pinch, puck pursuit style, and neither has the footspeed to compensate.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:01 pm

wondermoose wrote:Good players play well regardless of the "system." Somethig has happened to Martin in that he has no redeemable qualities as a defenseman anymore. That's not the systems fault.


They all seemed to play fine last year when they had to play defense with the top players out. There was no excuse for why all of the defensive players outside of nisky and engo regressed this year. When it happens to 4 players, I'm not singling any of them out. The defense as a whole was bad.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby blurryhaze312 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:08 pm

They played so long with the idea that they had to limit scoring from the other teams that when all of the big guns came back they got too relaxed and went balls to the wall trying to outscore teams rather than beat them.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby LeopardLetang on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:57 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:
wondermoose wrote:Good players play well regardless of the "system." Somethig has happened to Martin in that he has no redeemable qualities as a defenseman anymore. That's not the systems fault.


They all seemed to play fine last year when they had to play defense with the top players out. There was no excuse for why all of the defensive players outside of nisky and engo regressed this year. When it happens to 4 players, I'm not singling any of them out. The defense as a whole was bad.


exactly. that's probably the toughest thing to swallow. the D was outstanding at times over the last two years with the top players out. the mentality and the inability to change it after the proof towards the end of the season is why the coaches deserve a lot of blame.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:17 am

They are not playing they way that won them a Stanley Cup. So again, it's either they tuned it out or Bylsma changed and they are doing what he wants.

Either case it's a disgusting product on the ice and it falls back to the coach.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby tfrizz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:25 am

DelPen wrote:They are not playing they way that won them a Stanley Cup. So again, it's either they tuned it out or Bylsma changed and they are doing what he wants.

Either case it's a disgusting product on the ice and it falls back to the coach.


I still believe the biggest reason the Pens won the Cup was because they still had the structure of Therrien's system in place.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:35 am

tfrizz wrote:
DelPen wrote:They are not playing they way that won them a Stanley Cup. So again, it's either they tuned it out or Bylsma changed and they are doing what he wants.

Either case it's a disgusting product on the ice and it falls back to the coach.


I still believe the biggest reason the Pens won the Cup was because they still had the structure of Therrien's system in place.


This. And, they made it to the Cup final the season before and lost, so two trips in a row under the same coaches' system cannot be ignored. Under MT's system they went to the finals twice. Under Bylsma since his system has been implemented, they have not even won two playoff series.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:43 am

The problem with the system is that other teams have figured out how to beat the system and DB refuses to be flexible with the system when needed when other teams figure it out.

I think that will change this off-season, with the way we got exposed by a few teams this year. I am not just talking about the isles and flyers either.

Why do you think we were so good against western conference teams this past year? because those teams didn't devote much time into dismantling our system like some of the team in the East.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby meow on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:16 am

canaan wrote:Because of the clutching and grabbing revival in the league?

This is a pretty good answer. There isn't enough talent in the league to have the zero-obstruction league everyone wanted out of the lock-out and they are letting some more clutch-and-grab go.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:43 am

meow wrote:
canaan wrote:Because of the clutching and grabbing revival in the league?

This is a pretty good answer. There isn't enough talent in the league to have the zero-obstruction league everyone wanted out of the lock-out and they are letting some more clutch-and-grab go.


Here is the problem....I do agree and disagree to an extent - it has gotten a bit worse. But I also saw Philly put up a billion goals on the Penguins, saw the Islanders do it, saw Ottawa do it and saw other teams like Nashville cycle the puck for hours to the point they should have had a ton of goals.

Clutch or grab or not I think that speaks volumes to either the personnel, the system or both.

I actually think the HCDB and GMRS misfired on how to use their own system with the players they have. They have enough skill already to run the system they need stay at home d-men and not puck movers to round it out, and each line needs a real actual grinder to keep the cycle from going once the puck gets in the zone. Its why Talbot fit so well on the 2nd line the year we won the cup. Its why Eaton, Suderi, Gill, Orpik (younger) where so effective. They were needed to play solid positioning defense and they could excel at it.

I think they screwed up the lineup themselves with 3 smaller puck movers on d, less physical guys on the 2nd line wings, and Kunitz not really being the kunitz of old on the top line (although that is not really their fault). Just my two cents.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:50 am

This isn't a direct knock on anyone, but people that complain about the "system" wouldn't know the "system" if it came up and bit them in the behind.

"System" is a very general term used by people that are upset about something but have no other way of conveying it.
Last edited by Jesse on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:52 am

I'm not sure what his system is. It looks like they're a soccer team playing down a goal in added time.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:01 am

Every team in the NHL plays differently in all 3 zones. There isn't an over-arching system that a team plays in all three zones of the ice. You play one way in the neutral zone (both offensively and defensively), one way in the offensive zone, one way in the defensive zone, and obviously different ways with the special teams.

The most glaring issue that needs to be addressed is the breakout. That's what's killed the Penguins for the last 3 years. They want to go North quickly. Other teams know that. The Flyers played a 1-3-1 SEVERAL times this series. That's the same system they mocked just a few short months ago. They know it works. Take the home run stretch pass away and the Penguins suffocate. They need to come back to go forward. You can't pass the puck through 4 defenders from blueline to blueline.

The offensive zone system is perfect. The defensive zone system is fine when executed properly. The Penalty Kill worked all year until the guys brain farted their way out of the first round.

If we're changing anything, let's change the breakout and leave everything else alone. The 1-2-2 is perfect for this team.
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Re: Why soooooo many complaints about....

Postby meow on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:02 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
meow wrote:
canaan wrote:Because of the clutching and grabbing revival in the league?

This is a pretty good answer. There isn't enough talent in the league to have the zero-obstruction league everyone wanted out of the lock-out and they are letting some more clutch-and-grab go.


Here is the problem....I do agree and disagree to an extent - it has gotten a bit worse. But I also saw Philly put up a billion goals on the Penguins, saw the Islanders do it, saw Ottawa do it and saw other teams like Nashville cycle the puck for hours to the point they should have had a ton of goals.

Clutch or grab or not I think that speaks volumes to either the personnel, the system or both.

I actually think the HCDB and GMRS misfired on how to use their own system with the players they have. They have enough skill already to run the system they need stay at home d-men and not puck movers to round it out, and each line needs a real actual grinder to keep the cycle from going once the puck gets in the zone. Its why Talbot fit so well on the 2nd line the year we won the cup. Its why Eaton, Suderi, Gill, Orpik (younger) where so effective. They were needed to play solid positioning defense and they could excel at it.

I think they screwed up the lineup themselves with 3 smaller puck movers on d, less physical guys on the 2nd line wings, and Kunitz not really being the kunitz of old on the top line (although that is not really their fault). Just my two cents.

This is true. I think Shero and Bylsma were thinking, "If we have the best top 9 in the league, you know what would be awesome, if they had the puck a ton. So let's get a bunch of mobile, puck moving D to get them the puck. Scuderi and Gill are nice and all, but they just fire the puck off the glass." I can see where they are coming from, but someone has to play D.
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