Joe Morrow has a hard shot

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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 06, 2012 10:31 am

columbia wrote:
slappybrown wrote:Now we are trading Letang? Our only truly elite d-man? Who is, what, 25?


Staal and Malkin, too.
Get with the times.


Read my posts and explain where there is not logic involved. It is fairly simple. We have two great defensemen in the prospect system, one of which is ready now and is bigger and stronger than Letang.

The Pens have ZERO forward prospects closer that 2 or 3 years away. My post was in direct response to the idea of trading Malkin or Staal BTW.

Anyway, it is entirely logical, and Shero has long touted building a surplus at one position as a way to then bolster others. If you want to trade other D I am fine with it if they can bring a few solid AHL level guys who are ready for the next step, but that have pedigrees. I just don't think any of our other D are bringing that - unless you move Morrow or Despres. THAT is more :scared: than moving Letang - who has had his share of injuries, plays like he's 30 lbs heavier and had two concussions last year.

Not interested in trading him for ONE of those reasons, but because of all of them - and only for a king's ransom.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 06, 2012 10:41 am

the wicked child wrote:Wait... so a thread about Morrow's shot has somehow turned into "trade Letang for young forwards"???? LGP has gone full ******.


Npbody cares what you think, and it was my post so I kind of take offense to being referred to as a ******* for something backed with logic. I know all the great GMs on here want to only trade guys who they want to get rid of, but that is not how you alter a team that needs some serious issues in the prospect pool and the NHL depth level to be addressed.

Name a forward in our system who is ready for the NHL and that has the potential to be any more than a plugger? Now name me the top 3 defensive prospects and what their upside is? You can trade them, but I would rather "explore" what a move for Letang would bring because I believe Morrow and Despres upside is greater than Letang's and we can always get a solid NHL Dman back in the haul as well.

The 70s Steelers teams were guilty of holding on too long - and the Penguins have been loyal to most from the Cup team. While they continued to do that, it is apparent that upfront line 4 needs a complete overhaul and lines 2 and 3 could use an injection of young legs. I don't think any player from our "core" is more expendable than Letang because he is the one with the most apt replacements.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby Penspal on Sun May 06, 2012 10:50 am

Glad to read he's in the finals and brings all the things mentioned. A year in the AHL does wonders for most defenceman.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby pens_CT on Sun May 06, 2012 10:55 am

Penspal wrote:Glad to read he's in the finals and brings all the things mentioned. A year in the AHL does wonders for most defenceman.

Why waste a year of his entry level deal in the minors? If he plays well in camp he should be on the NHL roster this fall.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby DesertPenguin on Sun May 06, 2012 9:52 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Penspal wrote:Glad to read he's in the finals and brings all the things mentioned. A year in the AHL does wonders for most defenceman.

Why waste a year of his entry level deal in the minors? If he plays well in camp he should be on the NHL roster this fall.


Here is how this plays out. Despres, now having gotten his year in the A, makes the team out of camp.

Morrow gets the Despres treatment and goes to the Baby Pens, regardless of how he looks in camp. If he plays well down there early on, hes the first guy up when someone is injured, and if he plays well, he gets a chance to stick. RS will not pencil him in though from day one. He will have his stable of defensemen lined up such that Morrow can play the entire season in the AHL and the pens will be fine. If he forces his way onto the roster, so be it, but RS will not count on him until he shows he is ready.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby meecrofilm on Mon May 07, 2012 11:03 am

The Snapshot wrote:I believe Morrow and Despres upside is greater than Letang's and we can always get a solid NHL Dman back in the haul as well.


That's a bold statement, to say the least, and not one I agree with. Now if you said something like "The gap between their ceilings will be offset but whatever return we could get," then that would make a little more sense.

Is most of this recent Letang souring due to him having a bad playoffs playing with a bum hip? Or the cheapshots this year, which I imagine he'll learn to avoid more as he matures a player?
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Mon May 07, 2012 11:32 am

meecrofilm wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:I believe Morrow and Despres upside is greater than Letang's and we can always get a solid NHL Dman back in the haul as well.


That's a bold statement, to say the least, and not one I agree with. Now if you said something like "The gap between their ceilings will be offset but whatever return we could get," then that would make a little more sense.

Is most of this recent Letang souring due to him having a bad playoffs playing with a bum hip? Or the cheapshots this year, which I imagine he'll learn to avoid more as he matures a player?


The comment was meant to address the combined skillset being greater than Letang. I think Morrow is as good a skater as Letang, and that is saying something I know. I think Morrow showed a brief glimpse of his ability as a PP QB. I think Despres can grow into that as well. I think Despres' big body is very effective at moving guys without the more blatant stickwork Letang always resorts to.

I do worry about Letang, because as I said his style is fun to watch as he is amazing skater who plays on the very edge of control at both ends. I am not as sure as you on the idea of him learning to avoid the big hit, and he is a smaller guy in general who is amazingly strong for his size. His issue is that when the other team gets a cycle going and his responsibilities take him to either the corners or the slot - he takes as much abuse as he gives.

I wish he was smarter ala Karlsson from Ottawa, who rarely takes big hits and almost never gets hit head on. Always sliding one way or another.

My statements have never included running down Letang. In fact, it is the opposite. He would command a huge return from a team that does not have a Despres ready and a Morrow one AHL season or less away.

If the Pens had a stable of decent Forward prospects ready to push veteran role players aside, I'd love to just allow Morrow and Despres to plug into our D alongside him. That is not the case, and the alternatives to reworking the prospect pool should not include Staal or Malkin. That is subtraction from the very spot we need to add.

I would love to see him stay healthy and win a Norris next year, but when the Playoffs come if we so obviously miss youth, size and speed upfront and are lefting wanting for an option when Fleury struggles - then that Norris will mean as much as Malkin's Hart trophy from this year.

Letang would bring a complete Organizational change that could bring returns for now and the future. Otherwise, in Beau Bennett we trust.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby interstorm on Mon May 07, 2012 11:44 am

Wait - what????

People want to trade Letang for prospects? What year is it - 2003?

I assumed everyone understood the Penguins are looking to win today - their window is (still) as wide open as it gets for any organization these days. For a team in the Penguins position, they don't move their #1 D-man (signed to a good contract) for prospects. Teams like the Penguins make massive deadline deals in February for a guy like this in order to get the best chance to win. We don't have to do that because we......already have him !!!???

In addition (I don't think I need to go on but I will), how would any other person (remember - these are PEOPLE) on the team feel during their next contract negotiation with Pittsburgh? If the Pens showed no loyalty to Letang (who probably took less than he could have gotten) what makes you think you could work with any other agent to get a similar hometown discount?
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby Mosby on Mon May 07, 2012 9:14 pm

From last night's action.....kid has some hockey hair going on.

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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby ffemtreed on Mon May 07, 2012 9:44 pm

Seriously we are comparing Morrow, someone who never played and NHL game to Letang, who is arguably one of the top 15 D man in todays NHL who is a bargain for his current salary?

There is absolutely NO way Morrow can step in next year and replace Letangs talent on the ice.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby offsides on Mon May 07, 2012 9:51 pm

ffemtreed wrote:Seriously we are comparing Morrow, someone who never played and NHL game to Letang, who is arguably one of the top 15 D man in todays NHL who is a bargain for his current salary?

There is absolutely NO way Morrow can step in next year and replace Letangs talent on the ice.


I have to agree with this. Good prospect, but still needs a lot of seasoning at the NHL level.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Mon May 07, 2012 10:51 pm

Apparently nobody can read. Nobody (me) is comparing Morrow NOW to Letang NOW. Whatever, we can trade Martin for the number one overall pick....just stop your brain when you see trade Letang and ignore any logic afterward.

We can just roll the same dice next year for the third time in the last 4 years. Everything is fine. I'm sure you'll all still pay for tickets when the lack of organizational depth upfront comes home to roost.

Trading Letang makes a 1000% more sense than Staal or Malkin, which have both been suggested.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby columbia on Mon May 07, 2012 11:32 pm

What kind of return would expect for Letang?
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby Rylan on Mon May 07, 2012 11:33 pm

columbia wrote:What kind of return would expect for Letang?


The world.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby steelhammer on Tue May 08, 2012 8:13 am

The Snapshot wrote:Apparently nobody can read. Nobody (me) is comparing Morrow NOW to Letang NOW. Whatever, we can trade Martin for the number one overall pick....just stop your brain when you see trade Letang and ignore any logic afterward.

We can just roll the same dice next year for the third time in the last 4 years. Everything is fine. I'm sure you'll all still pay for tickets when the lack of organizational depth upfront comes home to roost.

Trading Letang makes a 1000% more sense than Staal or Malkin, which have both been suggested.


Letang has 2 years left on his contract at a $3.5M cap hit. If he was a UFA today he would easily get $6M, minimum. Why would you want to trade a player who is significantly outperforming his cap hit?!? That's the worst move a GM could make.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby ffemtreed on Tue May 08, 2012 8:15 am

The Snapshot wrote:
Trading Letang makes a 1000% more sense than Staal or Malkin, which have both been suggested.



I disagree,

how does trading a premier defenseman in the middle of his prime making a very cap friendly salary make sense? We aren't in the mode of completly rebuilding our team, we just need a little adjustment going into next season. What set of players are you going to get that fit into his cap space that has the same impact as Letang?

If you want to make room for players like Morrow and Despres, you move people like Niskanen and Engelland who are pretty much a dime a dozen in the NHL.

I personally think we are all over reacting with the we have to trade our core. There is nothing wrong with our core and their salary. Unless the cap drastically changes there is no need to trade any of our core.

Cooke, Kennedy, Adams, Asham, Vitale, Park all can be moved and replaced easily to change the makeup of this team to make them harder to play against.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby CERV96 on Tue May 08, 2012 8:34 am

I havent seen a lot of Joe Morrow since the preseason and had a few questions.

What current defenseman is Joe Morrow compaired to?

Does he have the potential to be as good if not better than letang?

If the above is the case then maybe at some point you do trade Letang in his contract year. If he is comanding a high salary if and only if Deprese is ready to log 25 min a night and Morrow shows that he can be developed in to a top 4 Dman.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 08, 2012 10:23 am

ffemtreed wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
Trading Letang makes a 1000% more sense than Staal or Malkin, which have both been suggested.



I disagree,

how does trading a premier defenseman in the middle of his prime making a very cap friendly salary make sense? We aren't in the mode of completly rebuilding our team, we just need a little adjustment going into next season. What set of players are you going to get that fit into his cap space that has the same impact as Letang?

If you want to make room for players like Morrow and Despres, you move people like Niskanen and Engelland who are pretty much a dime a dozen in the NHL.

I personally think we are all over reacting with the we have to trade our core. There is nothing wrong with our core and their salary. Unless the cap drastically changes there is no need to trade any of our core.

Cooke, Kennedy, Adams, Asham, Vitale, Park all can be moved and replaced easily to change the makeup of this team to make them harder to play against.


That is a bandaid, and I understand what you and other folks are saying, but these moves do NOT address the complete lack of youth and talent at F in the entire system. Shero has touted for years the idea that stockpiling at one position (D) can give him the flexibility to trade for others. We have a young guy ready to step in and play big minutes in Despres. We have another who has an amazing pedigree and is perhaps as good a skater or better than Letang. We have a few in the AHL who could step in to limited roles. We could also use that trade to bring in a proven NHL Dman along with a few young forwards on entry-level deals.

Replacing those guys you listed only addresses the NHL team next year, and as a GM Shero needs to balance the near term with the long term. This is also a team that has failed 3 years running as is, with all of the talent we have now. The core will not exist as of the next round of contracts anyway, so I am "suggesting" the possibility that Letang is the best move to make because he is more replaceable than Staal, Crosby or Malkin. We may just get someone back who can also be the replacement for the next player from the core to be moved when necessary.

I love Letang's style. He is fun to watch. He is also a high-wire act out there many nights, including these last playoffs. Maybe he is, as the leading minute eater back there, as responsible as anyone for the fact that the D overall plays fast and loose?

Everyone complains about the country club and the stagnation we have witnessed over the last few years - and most blame the coach. I blame the players as much as anyone, so perhaps the issue is that there are no forwards making any of the core at F expendable. Perhaps the core player most expendable yet also coveted around the league is on D.

He has a reasonable cap hit and outperforms that hit, I agree. That only makes him more valuable in a trade. His replacements would make less than him and could add depth in the form of a veteran D and Despres for less $$. He could also bring a few entry-level contract forwards in return.

Edmonton would love Letang with his skating.....
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby ffemtreed on Tue May 08, 2012 10:37 am

The Snapshot wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
Trading Letang makes a 1000% more sense than Staal or Malkin, which have both been suggested.



I disagree,

how does trading a premier defenseman in the middle of his prime making a very cap friendly salary make sense? We aren't in the mode of completly rebuilding our team, we just need a little adjustment going into next season. What set of players are you going to get that fit into his cap space that has the same impact as Letang?

If you want to make room for players like Morrow and Despres, you move people like Niskanen and Engelland who are pretty much a dime a dozen in the NHL.

I personally think we are all over reacting with the we have to trade our core. There is nothing wrong with our core and their salary. Unless the cap drastically changes there is no need to trade any of our core.

Cooke, Kennedy, Adams, Asham, Vitale, Park all can be moved and replaced easily to change the makeup of this team to make them harder to play against.


That is a bandaid, and I understand what you and other folks are saying, but these moves do NOT address the complete lack of youth and talent at F in the entire system. Shero has touted for years the idea that stockpiling at one position (D) can give him the flexibility to trade for others. We have a young guy ready to step in and play big minutes in Despres. We have another who has an amazing pedigree and is perhaps as good a skater or better than Letang. We have a few in the AHL who could step in to limited roles. We could also use that trade to bring in a proven NHL Dman along with a few young forwards on entry-level deals.

Replacing those guys you listed only addresses the NHL team next year, and as a GM Shero needs to balance the near term with the long term. This is also a team that has failed 3 years running as is, with all of the talent we have now. The core will not exist as of the next round of contracts anyway, so I am "suggesting" the possibility that Letang is the best move to make because he is more replaceable than Staal, Crosby or Malkin. We may just get someone back who can also be the replacement for the next player from the core to be moved when necessary.

I love Letang's style. He is fun to watch. He is also a high-wire act out there many nights, including these last playoffs. Maybe he is, as the leading minute eater back there, as responsible as anyone for the fact that the D overall plays fast and loose?

Everyone complains about the country club and the stagnation we have witnessed over the last few years - and most blame the coach. I blame the players as much as anyone, so perhaps the issue is that there are no forwards making any of the core at F expendable. Perhaps the core player most expendable yet also coveted around the league is on D.

He has a reasonable cap hit and outperforms that hit, I agree. That only makes him more valuable in a trade. His replacements would make less than him and could add depth in the form of a veteran D and Despres for less $$. He could also bring a few entry-level contract forwards in return.

Edmonton would love Letang with his skating.....



Why the urgent need to re stock at forward right now while this whole team is in their prime? We are ready to WIN NOW, not 3 or 4 years from now. Shero has done a great job of finding the forward talent when we needed it.

I also think you are over hyping what Morrow and Despres are ready to accomplish, neither has seen anymore than spot duty filling in for injuries. I am not ready to pencil them in as elite caliber D-men. Sure both look AWESOME right now but giving up a proven talent is a hard pill to swallow when you are in WIN NOW MODE.

I do agree we are severly lacking in forward depth, but you can make small trades like strait and a pick for a good forward prospect. Look at how many picks Shero gave up over the past few years, its now that we are paying for it.

The other issue with forwards is we have no room for an NHL ready prospect up front, so we are going to bury them on a 3rd or 4th line until someone is injured. This organization has been having that problem since the mid 90's.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby pekkasteele on Tue May 08, 2012 10:49 am

The Snapshot wrote:text


I could never agree that trading Letang is better than trading Staal:

Our best player at D or our 3rd best player at C that makes more money, where is the logic of that? Sure, we might not get a player as good as Staal at C, but he is still to good to be a 3rd line center, we could put a more fitting player for that position, and get a top-2 line forward, or maybe even 2 for Staal.

I'm sure we could get a good/couple of good F prospects for Staal, and then we could have Letang AND, as you said "We have a young guy ready to step in and play big minutes in Despres. We have another who has an amazing pedigree and is perhaps as good a skater or better than Letang." AND the F prospects you seek.

With that said, as long as we don't know how the new CBA will look, I'm not sure we have to trade anyone of the core. But we could still get rid of Engo, Lovejoy and so on to make rool for Morrow and Despres.
Last edited by pekkasteele on Tue May 08, 2012 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby sil on Tue May 08, 2012 10:50 am

The Snapshot wrote:This is also a team that has failed 3 years running as is, with all of the talent we have now..


It's a bit striking to me how often people lash out at the suggestion of trading one of the pens current media darling players (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang, Orpik, Fleury) when the fact that this team has pretty much been an utter playoff failure since the cup run continues to ring true...and it's not just Paul Martin and Zbynek Michalek who are failing us. If Letang (or anyone) can be traded for guys who (Shero thinks) will help out both short and long term...you make the deal.

This isn't advocating a complete team overhaul, and perhaps a slight tweek or two is the answer afterall, but the level of fail the pens displayed with a completely healthy lineup this spring begs for some serious thought about the future of this team and where it's headed with the current 'core' of 'untouchable' players.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby shmenguin on Tue May 08, 2012 12:04 pm

when letang was out of the lineup this year, he was missed more than when any other player was out. any other player.

did he suck in the playoffs? yes. but i'm not about to use that series as a significant data source for trade discussions relating to our key players.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 08, 2012 12:09 pm

sil wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:This is also a team that has failed 3 years running as is, with all of the talent we have now..


It's a bit striking to me how often people lash out at the suggestion of trading one of the pens current media darling players (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang, Orpik, Fleury) when the fact that this team has pretty much been an utter playoff failure since the cup run continues to ring true...and it's not just Paul Martin and Zbynek Michalek who are failing us. If Letang (or anyone) can be traded for guys who (Shero thinks) will help out both short and long term...you make the deal.

This isn't advocating a complete team overhaul, and perhaps a slight tweek or two is the answer afterall, but the level of fail the pens displayed with a completely healthy lineup this spring begs for some serious thought about the future of this team and where it's headed with the current 'core' of 'untouchable' players.


I agree we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but my thought is that Letang is the least disruptive overall move with the highest potential return. I don't think most folks read past "trade Letang" into any of the logic behind it.

They won't be going to games when we trade away guys under the gun due to Cap issues later or lose them to UFA for nothing, and we fall from the top teams. The Cap era dictates that you either have to draft well or make moves ahead of the ticking time bombs.

If they move Staal, that only makes the issue of depth and size upfront worse. I'd prefer to deal D to get Forwards that will be here through a few contracts as entry level and then RFAs. That way we can hopefully survive the loss of one of the core Forwards to Free Agency a few years out.

I guess the best thing would be to magically draft some immediate F help, but we don't seem to be too good at that other than a top 5 pick.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 08, 2012 12:20 pm

shmenguin wrote:when letang was out of the lineup this year, he was missed more than when any other player was out. any other player.

did he suck in the playoffs? yes. but i'm not about to use that series as a significant data source for trade discussions relating to our key players.


That is like any player in key roles. Is any team going to miss a PP QB when he goes down abruptly and nobody else has the opportunity to grow into that role? Yes.

That is understandable, because Letang is very good. I feel like I am talking to a wall, because this isn't about putting the blame on Letang. It is about extending the Penguins as a solid team into the next 6-8 years with an influx of talent at a position where we have only veterans and superstars - the latter being unrealistic as well to hold onto through the next deals for all of them. We have Neal for a good while. We have Malkin for two seasons. We have Sid and Staal only through next year with any certainty.

Where is the talent if one or more of those guys is gone after next season, especially if we are going to make a run at the Cup again next year but neither has been extended?

Trades are best made from positions of strength, and that incudes BOTH organizational depth AND timing. Trading pending UFAs brings next to nothing - look at Rick Nash to compare to Staal.

I used to pay to see Koltsov play, but I am not sure a lot of the new breed on here will like Hockey when they fall down the standings. Shero needs to make a few big decisions soon.
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Re: Joe Morrow has a hard shot

Postby Pitts on Tue May 08, 2012 12:42 pm

ffemtreed wrote:Why the urgent need to re stock at forward right now while this whole team is in their prime? We are ready to WIN NOW, not 3 or 4 years from now. Shero has done a great job of finding the forward talent when we needed it.

I think you are missing the whole point that this current team has stayed the same for the past 4 years and has failed for 3 of them. I think that point is very clear.

I also fully understand Snapshot's plan. It really, REALLY isn't that far-fetched. It's basically the Gogo trade all over, but with a better dman going out which would command a better return.

Another point to consider: when things get complacent at a business, sometimes the executives will make an example of someone who is performing admirably to wake up the rest of the employees. It happened here at my office several years ago when a top performing sales exec was terminated completely out of the blue. Turns out served as a wake-up call to those who remained and that apparently was the intention.

I've seen trades in hockey hockey meant to do just that. Perhaps now is the time for the Pens? I think that is what Snapshot alludes to when he talks of changing the culture of the team with a move like this.
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