Penguins lacking size?

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Penguins lacking size?

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:38 am

I know the penguins lack of size has been mentioned here in the last week, but I didn't realize how staggering it was.

NHL tonight was covering the upcoming series and had this statistic:
7 of the 8 teams remaining in the playoffs are in the top 10 in weight.

I believe the pens come in at around 26th. With this new "new" NHL appearing to be part of the end of season/playoffs, seen by the decrease in penalty calls, is this the biggest weakness on the current pens roster?

It may cause a drop in regular season success, clearly that's not what matters, but could set us up much better for the playoffs.



Added:

This chart has a breakdown that includes weight, height, age, etc. (from James Mirtle)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Ar3M_smeSBJsdEhEZUZKQ0l0U19vVUdUWFlNOXp1YlE&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=3&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/mirtle/status/174584058150518784

According to the chart the pens are tied at 27th and it's 7 of 8 are actually in the top 11 (not 10). The lone outlier (Nashville) comes in at 15, above the average NHL team weight and higher than rd. 1 opponent (Detroit).
Last edited by It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Stick_licker on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:51 am

I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby The Snapshot on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:03 am

I don't think size necessarily equates to physicality, so I think that the stats on this year's playoff may be a bit of an aberration. I do think that if you look at the top 3 lines of the Pens, there is plenty of physicality there.

My only agreement with this would be on D and also the 4 line. I think we need more size and more importantly physicality in a those spots. On D having Martin and Michalek both throwing no hitters every night is an issue. The 4th line was both undersized and too slow this year.

Vitale and Park are too small. Adams is too bad. Asham was a step slower this year. The 4th line needs to be completely revamped and only Vitale should be back.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Gaucho on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:12 am

They didn't lack size in the old new NHL. In the new new NHL maybe they do.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby offsides on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:14 am

Very hard to argue against these numbers. We have become far too easy to play against, especially in the playoffs. We just don't have many big physical players that can go into the corners and come out with the puck or consistently stand up forwards at the blue line. Just watching the current playoff games, after our epic fail is a real eye opener.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby RxBandit66 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:56 pm

offsides wrote:Very hard to argue against these numbers. We have become far too easy to play against, especially in the playoffs. We just don't have many big physical players that can go into the corners and come out with the puck or consistently stand up forwards at the blue line. Just watching the current playoff games, after our epic fail is a real eye opener.


I've been watching every period of every game, and you are right, it really is. Also, it is worth noting that nearly all the game winning goals are being scored by players that most fans have never even heard of. The entire team is dedicated to defense throughout the whole game. It really makes the Pens' current philosophy and system look completely outdated.

Shero needs to find some answers, and find them quickly. The good news is that in reality, a tight defensive system is not that difficult to execute. You just can't execute it with guys like Steve Sullivan.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Gaucho on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:17 pm

It's not like the Pens system is designed so as to completely neglect defensive play. A strict defensive system requires the players to pay even more attention to detail. The Pens completely failed in that regard. They didn't execute, and no system will overcome that.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:08 pm

The good news is there are a lot of affordable guys who play a solid game with some jam in FA to fix the bottom lines lack of grit
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby KG on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:31 pm

Stick_licker wrote:I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.


Agreed. Shero appears to have strayed from his earlier years of bringing in the grinding/leaders that made us harder to play against (Ruutu/Laraque/Roberts/Rupp). He has gone more toward the offense and puck movement.

We need a good blend. We definitely need more size/grit up front. Moen/Prust/Gaustad types who are UFA's...
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby offsides on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:53 pm

Stick_licker wrote:I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.


Just throwing this out there for discussion. Do you think Mario may have had anything to do with getting rid of some of our overall toughness?
Last edited by offsides on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:22 pm

KG wrote:
Stick_licker wrote:I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.


Agreed. Shero appears to have strayed from his earlier years of bringing in the grinding/leaders that made us harder to play against (Ruutu/Laraque/Roberts/Rupp). He has gone more toward the offense and puck movement.

We need a good blend. We definitely need more size/grit up front. Moen/Prust/Gaustad types who are UFA's...


Also guys like Armstrong, Hall, Malone, Gill, Talbot, Thorburn, Petrovicky, etc...Not saying that all of them were impact players but the record of toughness and gritty play was there. I definitely agree the Penguins aren't so tough to play against and maybe they need to get back to that because there was some value in it. I think Michalek and Martin are good players but our lack of a physical presence patrolling the blue line outside of Orpik (and even that's only on occasion) is a glaring weakness that needs addressed. If we can get a tough d-man or two and some grit on the 4th line, I think that will pay dividends this time next year and also change the mindset on the team and revert it back to valuing hard work and not just their skill.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby saveourpens on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.

We pretty much chocked. No need to over analyze things.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:43 pm

saveourpens wrote:Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.


I'm looking for a roommate down in the DC area, you interested?
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby offsides on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:46 pm

saveourpens wrote:Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.

We pretty much chocked. No need to over analyze things.


And the Presidents trophy means what? Regular season means what? Ask Vancouver. Too easy to play against IN THE PLAYOFFS.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:43 pm

offsides wrote:
saveourpens wrote:Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.

We pretty much chocked. No need to over analyze things.


And the Presidents trophy means what? Regular season means what? Ask Vancouver. Too easy to play against IN THE PLAYOFFS.


President's trophy means nothing if you can't beat certain teams. That's a Shero excuse. Lots of points, so we're a tough team. To mimic Draftnik: that is "nonsensical". What I saw all year was that Penguins had problems with bigger teams that had a hard forecheck (Flyers) or teams that played with a lot of intensity like the Islanders.

It was clear to see that we couldn't handle the Flyers at either end of the ice. What's surprising to me is that we didn't beat them once all season and yet, we didn't look at a team like the Rangers to see what the heck they were doing. As if we just waited to get our health back and hoped for the best. I don't think Shero did one trade all season. Seriously? I could do that job.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby RxBandit66 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:52 am

Sarcastic wrote:
offsides wrote:
saveourpens wrote:Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.

We pretty much chocked. No need to over analyze things.


And the Presidents trophy means what? Regular season means what? Ask Vancouver. Too easy to play against IN THE PLAYOFFS.


President's trophy means nothing if you can't beat certain teams. That's a Shero excuse. Lots of points, so we're a tough team. To mimic Draftnik: that is "nonsensical". What I saw all year was that Penguins had problems with bigger teams that had a hard forecheck (Flyers) or teams that played with a lot of intensity like the Islanders.

It was clear to see that we couldn't handle the Flyers at either end of the ice. What's surprising to me is that we didn't beat them once all season and yet, we didn't look at a team like the Rangers to see what the heck they were doing. As if we just waited to get our health back and hoped for the best. I don't think Shero did one trade all season. Seriously? I could do that job.


THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Gaucho on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 am

Are you their psychiatrist?
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:00 am

RxBandit66 wrote:THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


I'm probably going to regret this later...

Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego? I'm presuming you're not part of the Penguin organization, because then you wouldn't be complaining like you do. If you're getting your ideas from the media, then that's just silly, because what is said in the media has very little to do with what anyone's inner monologue actually is. I get the distinct impression that your personal feeling is "The Penguins brass won't run the team the way I want them to, and since I'm obviously right, their failure to run things the way I like must be because they have too much of an ego to see that I'm right".

Now, that may well be true. Perhaps the front office is filled with conniving egomaniacs from the owner on down. My personal feeling is that while I may have my own ideas on what I'd like the team to do, I am not a hockey executive, nor do my career prospects have me in a position to achieve that any time soon. If they want to make what I consider a really stupid move (like dealing for Kovalev), I'm not going to be shy about saying it's stupid. What I won't do is assume that a stupid move is actually a move with no rationale at all, or that it's being done out of spite or ego. Now, anybody in a position of power anywhere has to have some confidence in their own abilities or the team won't ever accomplish anything, but that's not ego.

Edit: TL;DR What Gaucho said 9 minutes ago.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby columbia on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:06 am

Freud's "The Ego and the Sid" never fails to be relevant.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Guinness on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:09 am

What Three Stars said.

I wasn't expecting that the :scared: would be getting worse as time goes by...
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:40 pm

Three Stars wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


I'm probably going to regret this later...

Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego? I'm presuming you're not part of the Penguin organization, because then you wouldn't be complaining like you do. If you're getting your ideas from the media, then that's just silly, because what is said in the media has very little to do with what anyone's inner monologue actually is. I get the distinct impression that your personal feeling is "The Penguins brass won't run the team the way I want them to, and since I'm obviously right, their failure to run things the way I like must be because they have too much of an ego to see that I'm right".

Now, that may well be true. Perhaps the front office is filled with conniving egomaniacs from the owner on down. My personal feeling is that while I may have my own ideas on what I'd like the team to do, I am not a hockey executive, nor do my career prospects have me in a position to achieve that any time soon. If they want to make what I consider a really stupid move (like dealing for Kovalev), I'm not going to be shy about saying it's stupid. What I won't do is assume that a stupid move is actually a move with no rationale at all, or that it's being done out of spite or ego. Now, anybody in a position of power anywhere has to have some confidence in their own abilities or the team won't ever accomplish anything, but that's not ego.

Edit: TL;DR What Gaucho said 9 minutes ago.


I think they were all cocky in the sense they thought the talent on the team could win the cup, when in reality they do lack size and grit as well as speed on the lower lines. They had too many issues this season to think this team could handle a playoff run. The guys they count on to provide grit like Kunitz just are not big enough and the 2nd line was not tough at all. add in the defense and this team is not hard to play against.

As far as their egos, not sure it was as much their own personalities as it was being too cocky about the team itself if that makes sense. Even now fans and pundits alike are discounting this loss to fleury or a bad matchup which isn't true. They were not good enough. They know now what changes need to be made, contracts and other situations make this an issue for a quick fix but I guarantee they wil not let their egos get in the way of making the changes it might just take a few summers.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I think they were all cocky in the sense they thought the talent on the team could win the cup, when in reality they do lack size and grit as well as speed on the lower lines. They had too many issues this season to think this team could handle a playoff run. The guys they count on to provide grit like Kunitz just are not big enough and the 2nd line was not tough at all. add in the defense and this team is not hard to play against.


That's the impression I got. I don't know if it's the players or the organization as a whole or maybe Shero (notice he didn't make any moves like we were purrrfect) or the media blowing smoke up our behinds toward the end. I believe that is the reason for the sheer disbelief we lost.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Three Stars on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:07 pm

Sarcastic wrote:That's the impression I got. I don't know if it's the players or the organization as a whole or maybe Shero (notice he didn't make any moves like we were purrrfect) or the media blowing smoke up our behinds toward the end. I believe that is the reason for the sheer disbelief we lost.


Or they didn't make any moves because no move made sense to make. I'm a big fan of the rational explanation that doesn't require implied incompetence on the part of all concerned. It's not the sexy story of egos and selfishness that some people here get off on. It feels soooo good to think that with just that one idea that you came up with in front of the television that the team could have won it all, and that Bylsma and Shero are morons for not thinking of what you can come up with on your couch and at your computer.

It's that sometimes a hockey team can lose even when they hypothetically should win. Sometimes too many guys are injured. Sometimes you get bad bounces. Sometimes the other team is really freaking good at what they do. So then your team loses. That's sports.

And again...can someone here please verify their connection into the inner psyche of the Penguins' top brass? I'd like to know how and why you're all so certain that you know what they're thinking, and I'm going to keep asking until I get an answer.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Rylan on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Three Stars wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:That's the impression I got. I don't know if it's the players or the organization as a whole or maybe Shero (notice he didn't make any moves like we were purrrfect) or the media blowing smoke up our behinds toward the end. I believe that is the reason for the sheer disbelief we lost.


Or they didn't make any moves because no move made sense to make. I'm a big fan of the rational explanation that doesn't require implied incompetence on the part of all concerned. It's not the sexy story of egos and selfishness that some people here get off on. It feels soooo good to think that with just that one idea that you came up with in front of the television that the team could have won it all, and that Bylsma and Shero are morons for not thinking of what you can come up with on your couch and at your computer.

It's that sometimes a hockey team can lose even when they hypothetically should win. Sometimes too many guys are injured. Sometimes you get bad bounces. Sometimes the other team is really freaking good at what they do. So then your team loses. That's sports.

And again...can someone here please verify their connection into the inner psyche of the Penguins' top brass? I'd like to know how and why you're all so certain that you know what they're thinking, and I'm going to keep asking until I get an answer.


How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:17 pm

Three Stars wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:That's the impression I got. I don't know if it's the players or the organization as a whole or maybe Shero (notice he didn't make any moves like we were purrrfect) or the media blowing smoke up our behinds toward the end. I believe that is the reason for the sheer disbelief we lost.


Or they didn't make any moves because no move made sense to make. I'm a big fan of the rational explanation that doesn't require implied incompetence on the part of all concerned. It's not the sexy story of egos and selfishness that some people here get off on. It feels soooo good to think that with just that one idea that you came up with in front of the television that the team could have won it all, and that Bylsma and Shero are morons for not thinking of what you can come up with on your couch and at your computer.

It's that sometimes a hockey team can lose even when they hypothetically should win. Sometimes too many guys are injured. Sometimes you get bad bounces. Sometimes the other team is really freaking good at what they do. So then your team loses. That's sports.

And again...can someone here please verify their connection into the inner psyche of the Penguins' top brass? I'd like to know how and why you're all so certain that you know what they're thinking, and I'm going to keep asking until I get an answer.


Well the point I was trying to make before wasn't that they were too cocky as individuals, they were over confident in a team that wasnt good enough to win the cup, yes the regular season was successful but people forget the regular season also gave a sample size of problems they have. They might have passed up on deals that didn't make sense but I also think they were ok with the team they had.

Also, not a direct response to you but too many people are saying things like bad bounces, bad matchup, injuries and all other things that can cause you to lose. Which are all true. But the pens lost because they were simply not good enough to win the cup. There is. O way this team could have handled 4 rounds. Watch the other games. The difference is amazing. The pens need a lot of changes.
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