Penguins lacking size?

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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby offsides on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:24 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote: There is. O way this team could have handled 4 rounds. Watch the other games. The difference is amazing. The pens need a lot of changes.


The difference is amazing and obvious.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby RxBandit66 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:34 pm

Gaucho wrote:Are you their psychiatrist?


I don't have to be. Any lay person who has watched any hockey at all would have known back in 2010 in the Montreal series that there was a problem with the Pens' approach. Teams like the Caps have adapted, and they are still playing.

The refusal to change anything for two seasons can only be attributed to the coach/GM being stubborn, overconfident, or lacking hockey sense. Since anyone at the NHL level is obviously hockey smart, my money is on the stubborn/overconfident part. Shero wondered why it all fell apart in ten days, when realistically it has been falling apart slowly since 2009.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby sil on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:14 pm

I wouldn't say it's been slowly falling apart for three years. Our total D has gone from bottom 10 in the league (the year after we won the cup) to top 10 (on average) the last two seasons. Consistency is much more the problem that I see. Take this past season for example...the pens went on, what?...and 26-4-2 run from early January to mid-March...and they were playing some pretty strong team defense in that stretch. After Sid came back it was like the whole team wanted to abaondon playing all 200-ft and focused on getting involved in the scoring parade. Couple this last trend with MAF playing poorly and that spells a recipe for giving up 30 goals in 6 playoff games. I obviously can't say difinitively, but I'd like our chances had we played Philly the way we played teams from January to March this past year.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Rylan on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:22 pm

Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby RxBandit66 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:10 pm

sil wrote:I wouldn't say it's been slowly falling apart for three years. Our total D has gone from bottom 10 in the league (the year after we won the cup) to top 10 (on average) the last two seasons. Consistency is much more the problem that I see. Take this past season for example...the pens went on, what?...and 26-4-2 run from early January to mid-March...and they were playing some pretty strong team defense in that stretch. After Sid came back it was like the whole team wanted to abaondon playing all 200-ft and focused on getting involved in the scoring parade. Couple this last trend with MAF playing poorly and that spells a recipe for giving up 30 goals in 6 playoff games. I obviously can't say difinitively, but I'd like our chances had we played Philly the way we played teams from January to March this past year.


Well, I was making reference to the team's performance in the playoffs. Beginning in 2010 there is a sharp dropoff. And I know 2011 could be thrown out because of the injuries, but the fact remains that the 2011 team actually won one more playoff gme that this year's team did.

But you make an excellent point about teams/goaltenders getting hot at the right time. The Flyers are an excellent team, take nothing away from them. But Bryzgalov has been shaky (and he was shaky in their 4-3 OT victory against New Jersey this afternoon as well), so the minute their offense cools off, they will be in trouble. The frustrating thing was that Philly beat the Pens with such poor goaltending. When you run into a hot goalie, sometimes in a best of 7 the guy just beats you singlehandedly. The Pens have been beating themselves on a regular basis ever Sid has returned. Now, it is likely that the team will be able to correct itself and return to the form they showed before Sid came back, and next season things will be back to how they were in mid-March. But I agree with most on here who would like to see the team get a little younger, bigger, and faster. If Morrow can be ready for next season and if they find a taker for Martin, that would be a big start in the right direction.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby tfrizz on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:30 pm

RxBandit66 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
offsides wrote:
saveourpens wrote:Yeah guys Pens were so easy to play against that they were just shy of the President's trophy.

We pretty much chocked. No need to over analyze things.


And the Presidents trophy means what? Regular season means what? Ask Vancouver. Too easy to play against IN THE PLAYOFFS.


President's trophy means nothing if you can't beat certain teams. That's a Shero excuse. Lots of points, so we're a tough team. To mimic Draftnik: that is "nonsensical". What I saw all year was that Penguins had problems with bigger teams that had a hard forecheck (Flyers) or teams that played with a lot of intensity like the Islanders.

It was clear to see that we couldn't handle the Flyers at either end of the ice. What's surprising to me is that we didn't beat them once all season and yet, we didn't look at a team like the Rangers to see what the heck they were doing. As if we just waited to get our health back and hoped for the best. I don't think Shero did one trade all season. Seriously? I could do that job.


THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


No, the reason they don't try to emulate the Rangers against the Flyers is because they don't have McDonagh + Staal + Girardi. Quite possibly the best top 3 defenders of any team of Nashville.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby tfrizz on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:31 pm

Three Stars wrote:Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego?


Because Tortorella said they're the most arrogant organization in the NHL... duh!
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Penspal on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:32 am

The Snapshot wrote:I don't think size necessarily equates to physicality, so I think that the stats on this year's playoff may be a bit of an aberration. I do think that if you look at the top 3 lines of the Pens, there is plenty of physicality there.

My only agreement with this would be on D and also the 4 line. I think we need more size and more importantly physicality in a those spots. On D having Martin and Michalek both throwing no hitters every night is an issue. The 4th line was both undersized and too slow this year.

Vitale and Park are too small. Adams is too bad. Asham was a step slower this year. The 4th line needs to be completely revamped and only Vitale should be back.


I agree that Park, Adams and Asham will likely be shown the door, but a healthy Vitale definitely punches over his weight class. He's speed, grit, heart, hustle and cost effective, so Vitale earns another shot in my books. He had 5-6 monster hits on much larger guys. Not quite a Letang strength from a smaller guy, but he seems to always play bigger than he really is.

When the Pens add Despres to the D, he's going to elevate the size, he's a "big human" to quote Errery. Bennett, Uher, Street and some of the other Pens forwards in the system are on the smaller side, drafted for the "new" speedy NHL, not the clutch and grab crap.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:37 am

Penspal wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:I don't think size necessarily equates to physicality, so I think that the stats on this year's playoff may be a bit of an aberration. I do think that if you look at the top 3 lines of the Pens, there is plenty of physicality there.

My only agreement with this would be on D and also the 4 line. I think we need more size and more importantly physicality in a those spots. On D having Martin and Michalek both throwing no hitters every night is an issue. The 4th line was both undersized and too slow this year.

Vitale and Park are too small. Adams is too bad. Asham was a step slower this year. The 4th line needs to be completely revamped and only Vitale should be back.


I agree that Park, Adams and Asham will likely be shown the door, but a healthy Vitale definitely punches over his weight class. He's speed, grit, heart, hustle and cost effective, so Vitale earns another shot in my books. He had 5-6 monster hits on much larger guys. Not quite a Letang strength from a smaller guy, but he seems to always play bigger than he really is.

When the Pens add Despres to the D, he's going to elevate the size, he's a "big human" to quote Errery. Bennett, Uher, Street and some of the other Pens forwards in the system are on the smaller side, drafted for the "new" speedy NHL, not the clutch and grab crap.

Vitale is exactly what you want in a 4th line center. Lets not forget he was a rookie this year.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby columbia on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:46 am

Trading Staal will certainly help in this department. :pop:
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby shmenguin on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:56 am

if this thread is at all related to the idea that philly was the "tougher" team, it's ridiculous. we were easily tougher and more physical than they were.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:38 pm

I laugh when people talk about the clutching and grabbing and how the pens were built for a different game. Well, if that is true then they screwed up royally as they lost a wide open series badly.

They need better players and a better mix of size and grit at forward and defense. Period. Planning for a wide open style still and probably moreso requires stay at home defenders and some gritty forwards. The irony of HCDB's system is that when we won the cup we had that mix and it's why guys like talbot excelled in prominent roles and our defensive players were solid enough to make up for a forward pushing system.

We are the ones that deviated from that plan to change the makeup of the team.

As far as size and toughness - yes we need more of it but it's not the reason we lost to the flyers.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:41 pm

Rylan wrote:Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.


So we just are ignoring the bounty of goals we gave up to the flyers, isles, senators etc in the last month of the season?
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:50 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Rylan wrote:Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.


So we just are ignoring the bounty of goals we gave up to the flyers, isles, senators etc in the last month of the season?


Fleury only started against the Senators once this season, back in November. it was also the only time the Pens beat them this season.

Additionally, Fleury only gave up more than 3 or more goals 6 times in his last 18 games of the regular season - of which only 3 were more than 3 goals, consecutive games against NYI, NYI, and PHI.


In that same time span (Feb 19th on) the Penguins gave up 3 or more goals 10 times in 24 games - meaning that in the 6 games played by Thiessen or Johnson, the opponents scored 3 or more in 4 of them.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:22 pm

tfrizz wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Rylan wrote:Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.


So we just are ignoring the bounty of goals we gave up to the flyers, isles, senators etc in the last month of the season?


Fleury only started against the Senators once this season, back in November. it was also the only time the Pens beat them this season.

Additionally, Fleury only gave up more than 3 or more goals 6 times in his last 18 games of the regular season - of which only 3 were more than 3 goals, consecutive games against NYI, NYI, and PHI.


In that same time span (Feb 19th on) the Penguins gave up 3 or more goals 10 times in 24 games - meaning that in the 6 games played by Thiessen or Johnson, the opponents scored 3 or more in 4 of them.


That is my point, not the season body of work. Those stats dont mean much for the last month. The post said that he a bad three games yet a week earlier he had a bad three games. He was not on his game for quite some time. And the team defensively wasn't either. Everyone wants to find reasons for the loss beyond they were simply better. Their goalie didn't play well either.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:43 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Rylan wrote:Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.


So we just are ignoring the bounty of goals we gave up to the flyers, isles, senators etc in the last month of the season?


Fleury only started against the Senators once this season, back in November. it was also the only time the Pens beat them this season.

Additionally, Fleury only gave up more than 3 or more goals 6 times in his last 18 games of the regular season - of which only 3 were more than 3 goals, consecutive games against NYI, NYI, and PHI.


In that same time span (Feb 19th on) the Penguins gave up 3 or more goals 10 times in 24 games - meaning that in the 6 games played by Thiessen or Johnson, the opponents scored 3 or more in 4 of them.


That is my point, not the season body of work. Those stats dont mean much for the last month. The post said that he a bad three games yet a week earlier he had a bad three games. He was not on his game for quite some time. And the team defensively wasn't either. Everyone wants to find reasons for the loss beyond they were simply better. Their goalie didn't play well either.


The first part, I agree with completely. It wasn't just "three bad games", it was more like a bad last 7-14 days of the season + playoffs - but unless we have different definitions of "quite some time", then Fleury wasn't off his game for that long.

I actually tend to agree with the idea that it was the 8-4 loss to Ottawa on Mar 24 (with Thiessen in goal) that really put the blueprint out on the Pens defensively. You could look two games further back, to the 8-4 win over Winnipeg (also with Thiessen in goal), possibly as the true starting point. After that Ottawa game, they just didn't look like the same team.

The difference in the team all season with Fleury in versus either Johnson or Thiessen is actually the reason I'm putting a bigger emphasis on the defensive problems than anything. Simply put: when Fleury was in goal, they looked unstoppable; otherwise, they looked like a marginal team at best. Their defensive strategy was far too reliant on goaltending to be successful in the playoffs - there simply was no contingency plan to help out a struggling Fleury.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Malkamaniac on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:03 pm

Too small. Too small indeed.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby sil on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:07 pm

Malkamaniac wrote:Too small. Too small indeed.


Trade for Brian Gionta, pick up Chris Bourque off waivers again, and use Cal O'Reilly as your 3rd center. Problem sovled.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:17 pm

tfrizz wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Rylan wrote:Sad thing is Fleury was bad for 3 games. 3 games is a slump that could happen at anytime. That just sucks it happened at the worst possible time.


So we just are ignoring the bounty of goals we gave up to the flyers, isles, senators etc in the last month of the season?


Fleury only started against the Senators once this season, back in November. it was also the only time the Pens beat them this season.

Additionally, Fleury only gave up more than 3 or more goals 6 times in his last 18 games of the regular season - of which only 3 were more than 3 goals, consecutive games against NYI, NYI, and PHI.


In that same time span (Feb 19th on) the Penguins gave up 3 or more goals 10 times in 24 games - meaning that in the 6 games played by Thiessen or Johnson, the opponents scored 3 or more in 4 of them.


That is my point, not the season body of work. Those stats dont mean much for the last month. The post said that he a bad three games yet a week earlier he had a bad three games. He was not on his game for quite some time. And the team defensively wasn't either. Everyone wants to find reasons for the loss beyond they were simply better. Their goalie didn't play well either.


The first part, I agree with completely. It wasn't just "three bad games", it was more like a bad last 7-14 days of the season + playoffs - but unless we have different definitions of "quite some time", then Fleury wasn't off his game for that long.

I actually tend to agree with the idea that it was the 8-4 loss to Ottawa on Mar 24 (with Thiessen in goal) that really put the blueprint out on the Pens defensively. You could look two games further back, to the 8-4 win over Winnipeg (also with Thiessen in goal), possibly as the true starting point. After that Ottawa game, they just didn't look like the same team.

The difference in the team all season with Fleury in versus either Johnson or Thiessen is actually the reason I'm putting a bigger emphasis on the defensive problems than anything. Simply put: when Fleury was in goal, they looked unstoppable; otherwise, they looked like a marginal team at best. Their defensive strategy was far too reliant on goaltending to be successful in the playoffs - there simply was no contingency plan to help out a struggling Fleury.


All that I am saying is that fleury and/ or the team did not start playing poorly in the playoffs. Whether we narrow it down to 3 weeks, one month, 10 games or whatever ( the last three games of the year really don't count) it was clear they had issues.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Malkamaniac on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:24 pm

sil wrote:
Malkamaniac wrote:Too small. Too small indeed.


Trade for Brian Gionta, pick up Chris Bourque off waivers again, and use Cal O'Reilly as your 3rd center. Problem sovled.


If you're applying to be on Little People, Big World.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Rylan on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:18 pm

And all I was using was the playoffs as my viewpoint since 50% of LGP says regular season doesn't matter. But yea, Fleury himself was off his game late in the season. But him and Malkin were the only reason the Pens had home ice this year. Just saying.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Mr. Colby on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Malkamaniac wrote:Too small. Too small indeed.


I agree with this and appreciate you getting the thread back on point.

It will be refreshing to click into a thread and not have to see the same 3 or 4 posters turning the thread topic into "why dan bylsma should be fired".

He's not going to be - his boss said so - so if you 3 or 4 posters could stop doing this (starting to become trolling), I'm sure many people would be happy. KTHXBAI.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Noise on Tue May 01, 2012 12:16 am

twss
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue May 01, 2012 9:22 am

Rylan wrote:And all I was using was the playoffs as my viewpoint since 50% of LGP says regular season doesn't matter. But yea, Fleury himself was off his game late in the season. But him and Malkin were the only reason the Pens had home ice this year. Just saying.


I agree with that completely. It's part of what made them overrated heading into the playoffs and covered up for abad defensive squad.
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Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:42 pm

Three Stars wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego?


With the way we played the series, I am not surprised at any theories that are being throw around and probably will until next season. Maybe it has nothing to with their ego at all. Maybe you're right. But the ego thing is probably as good an explanation as any. I mean, it could also be that they're incompetent. If I saw the team having the weaknesses that were exposed toward the end of the reg. season and in the Flyers series, then why didn't Shero or Bylsma and why didn't they make some changes? All I heard from the team until they lost the final game is that they will be fine and that they're just going to play their game. Well, their game wasn't good enough and neither was their roster. Now they can't believe they actually lost. Like their poop didn't stink. Like they had the Cup in their hands already. Lack of enough desperation for 60 minutes because I really think they felt they were going to win on talent. Or maybe the Flyers were just put together better, but that badly reflects on Shero who maybe wanted to add a player but ran out of time. As I said, we can all guess and make our theories, but in the end, I saw a lot of problems in that series and even before then. Henry was correctly warning well in advance. I'd probably even take the 'ego' explanation rather than an explanation that they just weren't smart enough at their jobs and let the Flyers humiliate us they way they did. Ego is OK, as long as you win.
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