Penguins lacking size?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Three Stars on Tue May 01, 2012 12:55 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Three Stars wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego?


With the way we played the series, I am not surprised at any theories that are being throw around and probably will until next season. Maybe it has nothing to with their ego at all. Maybe you're right. But the ego thing is probably as good an explanation as any. I mean, it could also be that they're incompetent. If I saw the team having the weaknesses that were exposed toward the end of the reg. season and in the Flyers series, then why didn't Shero or Bylsma and why didn't they make some changes? All I heard from the team until they lost the final game is that they will be fine and that they're just going to play their game. Well, their game wasn't good enough and neither was their roster. Now they can't believe they actually lost. Like their poop didn't stink. Like they had the Cup in their hands already. Lack of enough desperation for 60 minutes because I really think they felt they were going to win on talent. Or maybe the Flyers were just put together better, but that badly reflects on Shero who maybe wanted to add a player but ran out of time. As I said, we can all guess and make our theories, but in the end, I saw a lot of problems in that series and even before then. Henry was correctly warning well in advance. I'd probably even take the 'ego' explanation rather than an explanation that they just weren't smart enough at their jobs and let the Flyers humiliate us they way they did. Ego is OK, as long as you win.


I could say that they lost the series on purpose. They knew deep in their hearts that the team was flawed, so they utterly tanked it to get it over with as soon as possible. Or, they lost on purpose because they knew it would really piss off the posters of LGP, and there's nothing more entertaining than a bunch of butthurt know-it-alls. Those theories have just as much validity based on just as much appreciation for the inner monologues of the people involved.

Nobody has stepped forward to say that they've actually had a conversation with Dan Bylsma or Ray Shero. The "ego" explanation doesn't hold water at all, mostly because it's derived from nothing. If my car breaks down suddenly, should I speculate about the ego of the guy in the factory who put it together? If my french fries have too much salt, is the McDonalds worker a raging egomaniac?
Three Stars
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,577
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:14 pm
Location: And now for something completely different.

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:00 pm

Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,283
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Three Stars on Tue May 01, 2012 1:02 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


If there aren't any worthwhile offers, then how is that Shero's fault? Someone tries to sell you a car for 2x its nominal value. Is it your fault you don't take it?
Three Stars
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,577
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:14 pm
Location: And now for something completely different.

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Three Stars wrote:Nobody has stepped forward to say that they've actually had a conversation with Dan Bylsma or Ray Shero. The "ego" explanation doesn't hold water at all, mostly because it's derived from nothing. If my car breaks down suddenly, should I speculate about the ego of the guy in the factory who put it together? If my french fries have too much salt, is the McDonalds worker a raging egomaniac?


We should probably define 'ego' because it may be just a case of semantics. All we can go on is interviews and the impression I get is that Shero really liked this team he put together and that Bylsma was sure he had the right gameplan. Again, no changes were made to either. And I keep going back to thinking about the interviews with players.. they weren't even desperate in the locker room from the reports that were coming out and that's a pretty alarming thing, IMO. Maybe we should change the word ego to confidence. But then we're left with incompetence and I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,283
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:12 pm

Three Stars wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


If there aren't any worthwhile offers, then how is that Shero's fault? Someone tries to sell you a car for 2x its nominal value. Is it your fault you don't take it?


Because he waited too long, as he always does. That is his fault and his fault only. He must have felt that once we get all healthy we'd have a perfect tream and that clearly wasn't the case all season. Not to me, anyway.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,283
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 01, 2012 1:22 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Three Stars wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


If there aren't any worthwhile offers, then how is that Shero's fault? Someone tries to sell you a car for 2x its nominal value. Is it your fault you don't take it?


Because he waited too long, as he always does. That is his fault and his fault only. He must have felt that once we get all healthy we'd have a perfect tream and that clearly wasn't the case all season. Not to me, anyway.


Neal-Goose trade was in February.

Whitney-Kunitz trade was in February.

Not sure where the bold came from. His best deadline moves in the past 4 years have been before the deadline.

But just to be a dead horse, is it Shero's fault that a UFA D-man would've cost multiple picks and/or prospects to get at the deadline because of the lean market? Are you saying it's Shero's fault there was literally 5 available players?
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,520
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Gaucho on Tue May 01, 2012 1:27 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


That's an odd statement, to say the least.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 42,771
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Ignoranti

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby columbia on Tue May 01, 2012 1:30 pm

It's clear that the deadline market is getting more and more expensive, so let's definitely drop the idea that Shero can fix problems/back fill the team at that time.
(Shero will address it at the deadline was discussed the last two years, in relation to the D.)
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 49,328
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu.

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:49 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


That's an odd statement, to say the least.


What's odd about it? Didn't we need to make changes? There are so many holes that I see from lack of a power foward, to lack of a PP quarterback, to lack of physical defensemen. I believe Shero himself said he wanted to do something but couldn't because there was nothing available. He had the entire year to do that. I actually remember him saying something once about waiting till the deadline to get a better deal (not this year, I think it was last year). The joke's on him. Flyers were able to grab Grossman and Kubina anyway. Who knows anymore, but I haven't been too happy with him lately.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,283
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby offsides on Tue May 01, 2012 1:53 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
What's odd about it? Didn't we need to make changes? There are so many holes that I see from lack of a power foward, to lack of a PP quarterback, to lack of physical defensemen. I believe Shero himself said he wanted to do something but couldn't because there was nothing available. He had the entire year to do that. I actually remember him saying something once about waiting till the deadline to get a better deal (not this year, I think it was last year). The joke's on him. Flyers were able to grab Grossman and Kubina anyway. Who knows anymore, but I haven't been too happy with him lately.


After some of the things he has said since the series loss, I don't think he is very happy with himself either.
offsides
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,552
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:48 pm
Location: Man Cave in Washington, PA

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Gaucho on Tue May 01, 2012 2:38 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Rylan wrote:How quickly we forget the exorbitant prices that were occurring at the trade deadline...


I agree and I understant there weren't any worthwhile offers. That is Shero's fault. As I've been saying for years, he isn't quick enough. He waits until the final day to make trades. He should have done something long before the deadline.


That's an odd statement, to say the least.


What's odd about it? Didn't we need to make changes? There are so many holes that I see from lack of a power foward, to lack of a PP quarterback, to lack of physical defensemen. I believe Shero himself said he wanted to do something but couldn't because there was nothing available. He had the entire year to do that. I actually remember him saying something once about waiting till the deadline to get a better deal (not this year, I think it was last year). The joke's on him. Flyers were able to grab Grossman and Kubina anyway. Who knows anymore, but I haven't been too happy with him lately.


I thought it was odd for the reasons MRandall already stated.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 42,771
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Ignoranti

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Guinness on Wed May 02, 2012 4:35 am

Gaucho wrote:
I thought it was odd for the reasons MRandall already stated.


Indeed. If anything, Shero is typically out in front of the market. And I've always liked that about him.

This notion that Shero didn't do try to do anything to improve the team just doesn't have any merit. None of us know whether or not he made any offers. If I recall correctly, he's not one to be particularly candid about trade efforts, which is usually a good thing during that time of the year as it can make players tense.
Guinness
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,337
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:30 am
Location: At the pub

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Rugbymuffin on Wed May 02, 2012 5:32 am

KG wrote:
Stick_licker wrote:I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.


Agreed. Shero appears to have strayed from his earlier years of bringing in the grinding/leaders that made us harder to play against (Ruutu/Laraque/Roberts/Rupp). He has gone more toward the offense and puck movement.

We need a good blend. We definitely need more size/grit up front. Moen/Prust/Gaustad types who are UFA's...


+1

I agree our team is not big enough. IMO, our defensemen looked terrified against the Flyers. Anytime the Flyers dumped the puck in, you could see/feel the hesitation of those players to go in and get the puck.

Agreed a bigger player doesn't equate to how physical they are, but a bigger man is going to wear down less than a smaller one.
Rugbymuffin
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby sil on Wed May 02, 2012 9:27 am

Rugbymuffin wrote:
KG wrote:
Stick_licker wrote:I wish we'd kept Rupp. Seems like Shero spent several years making us "hard to play against" and this offseason gave all that up.


Agreed. Shero appears to have strayed from his earlier years of bringing in the grinding/leaders that made us harder to play against (Ruutu/Laraque/Roberts/Rupp). He has gone more toward the offense and puck movement.

We need a good blend. We definitely need more size/grit up front. Moen/Prust/Gaustad types who are UFA's...


+1

I agree our team is not big enough. IMO, our defensemen looked terrified against the Flyers. Anytime the Flyers dumped the puck in, you could see/feel the hesitation of those players to go in and get the puck.

Agreed a bigger player doesn't equate to how physical they are, but a bigger man is going to wear down less than a smaller one.


I'm not really sure how we'll afford either of Moen's or Gaustad's salaries next season (even Prust will be a squeeze). In terms of "big physical D," he may not have look terrified, but Orpik (who is big and physical) looked about as bad as any D-man out there against Philly...I'm not sure 6 Orpik's running around out there and hitting everything in sight (while being completely out of defensive position) will help this team win in the playoffs.
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,119
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby pens_srq on Wed May 02, 2012 3:10 pm

Losing Hal Gill was the single biggest step backwards we have taken on defense. We replaced him with much smaller guys.

Is it any wonder that the teams that we have had trouble with are among the leaders in height and weight?

We get pushed around in the defensive zone WAY too much. We need big bodies, especially with the way the league has changed the calls. If we don't we're bound to keep failing.
pens_srq
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,520
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 10:33 am
Location: my garage, running a hockey league

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby pens_srq on Wed May 02, 2012 3:17 pm

Rugbymuffin wrote:Agreed a bigger player doesn't equate to how physical they are, but a bigger man is going to wear down less than a smaller one.


And he has much better reach. Also, if they just keep a guy on their back and turn in a circle with their stick extended as far as possible away from the defender, then they can just circle around smaller guys that can't hope to reach the puck. The defenders then look like they are "chasing" when in fact they just can't be effective against a much bigger forward who is either even with them or has a step on them towards the puck. This is exactly what we saw against Philly. The only way our D could be effective is if we played a trap, where the puck is never behind the D and they can always take an angle on the attacker. Even then we'd still have problems behind the net and along the boards.
pens_srq
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,520
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 10:33 am
Location: my garage, running a hockey league

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby darkstar57 on Wed May 02, 2012 3:20 pm

pens_srq wrote:Losing Hal Gill was the single biggest step backwards we have taken on defense. We replaced him with much smaller guys.

Is it any wonder that the teams that we have had trouble with are among the leaders in height and weight?

We get pushed around in the defensive zone WAY too much. We need big bodies, especially with the way the league has changed the calls. If we don't we're bound to keep failing.


Well there are very few guys we could have replaced hal gil with and not have lost height and weight.

But overall i do think our third or third and 4th lines and our defense is on the smaller side.
darkstar57
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,080
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:13 pm
Location: A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 02, 2012 4:22 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Three Stars wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:THe reason they didn't look at teams like the Rangers and emulate the ways they were successful against the Flyers is because it is not in Bylsma's nature. He cannot admit that he, his system, or his players are flawed in any way. Shero's ego is just as bad. They probably felt like "hey, when the playoffs start, we'll just get to our game and play more intense, and we'll win." It's a nice thought, and the team has all kinds of talent, but in reality there is strategy in the playoffs. And discipline. Two things Bylsma and his players lack.


Could you please explain to me and the rest of the board how you know anything about Bylsma and Shero's ego?


With the way we played the series, I am not surprised at any theories that are being throw around and probably will until next season. Maybe it has nothing to with their ego at all. Maybe you're right. But the ego thing is probably as good an explanation as any. I mean, it could also be that they're incompetent. If I saw the team having the weaknesses that were exposed toward the end of the reg. season and in the Flyers series, then why didn't Shero or Bylsma and why didn't they make some changes? All I heard from the team until they lost the final game is that they will be fine and that they're just going to play their game. Well, their game wasn't good enough and neither was their roster. Now they can't believe they actually lost. Like their poop didn't stink. Like they had the Cup in their hands already. Lack of enough desperation for 60 minutes because I really think they felt they were going to win on talent. Or maybe the Flyers were just put together better, but that badly reflects on Shero who maybe wanted to add a player but ran out of time. As I said, we can all guess and make our theories, but in the end, I saw a lot of problems in that series and even before then. Henry was correctly warning well in advance. I'd probably even take the 'ego' explanation rather than an explanation that they just weren't smart enough at their jobs and let the Flyers humiliate us they way they did. Ego is OK, as long as you win.


I think that if you are watching the other series now you will realize how many problems the pens have. Their PK whether it was talent or coaching was humiliated by a team that couldn't get a shot off against NJ and who was bottled up a bit the entire game.

Everyone wants to say things about us vs. the flyers or knock the flyers after last nights game but maybe just maybe we have amazing top end talent and in the playoffs teams can scheme around us very easily. Lack of skill throughout? Lack on size? Lack of defense? HCDB not great?

Maybe it is simply yes to all of those.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,117
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 02, 2012 4:28 pm

darkstar57 wrote:
pens_srq wrote:Losing Hal Gill was the single biggest step backwards we have taken on defense. We replaced him with much smaller guys.

Is it any wonder that the teams that we have had trouble with are among the leaders in height and weight?

We get pushed around in the defensive zone WAY too much. We need big bodies, especially with the way the league has changed the calls. If we don't we're bound to keep failing.


Well there are very few guys we could have replaced hal gil with and not have lost height and weight.

But overall i do think our third or third and 4th lines and our defense is on the smaller side.


Personally I think shero and bylsma outthought themseleves. The cup year our system worked because we had enough skill mixed in with gritty productive top line forwards and 4 stay at home dmen.

Maybe we domt need more puck carrying dmen and Letang is enough. Maybe we need grit on the top lines because they have enough skill already. Maybe his aggressive style calls for aggressive forwards and bigger dmen and they are just wrong.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,117
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Rugbymuffin on Thu May 03, 2012 8:36 am

sil wrote:I'm not really sure how we'll afford either of Moen's or Gaustad's salaries next season (even Prust will be a squeeze). In terms of "big physical D," he may not have look terrified, but Orpik (who is big and physical) looked about as bad as any D-man out there against Philly...I'm not sure 6 Orpik's running around out there and hitting everything in sight (while being completely out of defensive position) will help this team win in the playoffs.


Fair enough.

But in my defense Orpik played like he was 180lbs during the Flyers series. He was a ghost, a no show, and just plain bad in the series. He did nothing to spark the team, or show any kind of physical play, IMO.
Rugbymuffin
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby penny lane on Thu May 03, 2012 8:50 am

flyers speed in forwards didn't and doesn't allow for the pens D to be position to hit.
Pens plan of victory for the series was.... I don't know. Did they know ?
Plus, in game 1 the refs called everything, due to all furor from 4/1 and 4/7 games.
No key saves from flower , poor positioning on the PK and slow players against speed.

Letang should not be the one D to physically engage players.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 29,060
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:29 pm
Location: Have fun, kick butt!

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 09, 2012 8:39 am

Rugbymuffin wrote:
sil wrote:I'm not really sure how we'll afford either of Moen's or Gaustad's salaries next season (even Prust will be a squeeze). In terms of "big physical D," he may not have look terrified, but Orpik (who is big and physical) looked about as bad as any D-man out there against Philly...I'm not sure 6 Orpik's running around out there and hitting everything in sight (while being completely out of defensive position) will help this team win in the playoffs.


Fair enough.

But in my defense Orpik played like he was 180lbs during the Flyers series. He was a ghost, a no show, and just plain bad in the series. He did nothing to spark the team, or show any kind of physical play, IMO.


Orpik and Staal's game flaws were totally exposed in this series on defense. The Flyers exploited both of their lack of lateral quickness every game and especially on the PK. Plus Orpiks only real value was mugging people in front of the net when they didnt have the puck and getting away with it.

Quite simply I feel he was our worst defensemen in the series but that might just be because of the pure volume and type of minutes he was getting.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,117
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed May 09, 2012 8:48 am

columbia wrote:It's clear that the deadline market is getting more and more expensive, so let's definitely drop the idea that Shero can fix problems/back fill the team at that time.
(Shero will address it at the deadline was discussed the last two years, in relation to the D.)


I think this year was pretty much bunk in terms of what was available. When Gaustad is pulling a first rounder(and the Sabres get it), the FA market is super weak. Coupled with the fact that so many teams where still in it and the prices became super ridiculous.

That being said, winning the trade sweepstakes still means nothing, Nashville is golfing already so I still believe that the best shaping of the team has to happen on July 1 or shortly after since the trade market isn't as ridiculous then and teams can repair what they've lost/gained via trade.
Malkamaniac
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 34,354
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:33 pm
Location: Who is Sims?

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby pfim on Wed May 09, 2012 11:16 am

I don't think the Devils are particularly big, and they're doing just fine. It's not as if taller players are inherently better defenders, goalkeepers, or forecheckers.
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,789
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Re: Penguins lacking size?

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed May 09, 2012 11:19 am

pfim wrote:I don't think the Devils are particularly big, and they're doing just fine. It's not as if taller players are inherently better defenders, goalkeepers, or forecheckers.


I relate size to people who are big that actually use their bodies to cause damage. I'm just wanting a dude like Lucic to be on the Pens. Someone that's just inherently mean and willing to just throw his body around at all times.
Malkamaniac
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 34,354
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:33 pm
Location: Who is Sims?

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


e-mail