Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 8:35 am

Malkin will go before Staal.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby owtahear on Tue May 01, 2012 8:48 am

sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 01, 2012 8:49 am

owtahear wrote:
sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.



Columbus... ?
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Streaks House on Tue May 01, 2012 8:55 am

I don't think GMRS will trade Stahl or Jeffries...
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:02 am

Streaks House wrote:I don't think GMRS will trade Stahl or Jeffries...


:thumb:
Crawsbee would fetch a nice return, no? Mahrten, Micallick, and Oarpick might be tought to move to clear up space.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Streaks House on Tue May 01, 2012 9:03 am

MRandall25 wrote:
owtahear wrote:
sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.



Columbus... ?


Minnesota wouldn't be a bad destination either. They certainly have a deep prospect pool. I'll take a combination of 2 of Granlund, Coyle, or Brodin + picks.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:08 am

owtahear wrote:
sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.


Would a return of Bobby Ryan or Corey Perry (both with great cap hits for what they bring), Luca Sbisa (large body moving defensive-minded defender...also with a nice cap hit for 3 more years), and a first or a good prospect be such a bad return for Malkin? Not saying one way or the other, just wondering what people think? I personally wouldn't be so quick to slam the phone down. If the cap were to drop next year, that'd be two very good young players who (combined) make $1,500,000 less than Malkin does alone.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:10 am

Streaks House wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
owtahear wrote:
sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.




Columbus... ?


Minnesota wouldn't be a bad destination either. They certainly have a deep prospect pool. I'll take a combination of 2 of Granlund, Coyle, or Brodin + picks.


You need proven roster players back for Malkin in a trade. You can't risk trading him for talent that never develops like we did with Jagr.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby no name on Tue May 01, 2012 9:38 am

Any Staal trade should keep us in contender mode.

Staal 4 mil, Martin 5 mil
for
Weber new deal 8.7 mil


Pick up a defensive specialist, no thrills 3rd line center.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby owtahear on Tue May 01, 2012 10:10 am

sil wrote:
Streaks House wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
owtahear wrote:
sil wrote:Malkin will go before Staal.


I thought alot about this. Malkin would be the perfect trade bait for a smaller market who needs a marquee star to build around or.....a big market team who needs a splash impact.

The former, TB is out, because they already have stars. Florida? Maybe. Nashville? No way, they can't afford Weber and are doing well. Carolina? They are struggling with Eric Staal.

The latter? LA would have been the perfect trade partner before this year with alot of young talent to bring in return. Now? Why would they. Anaheim? Maybe, but who would you get in return? They have some nice wingers, but a guy like Perry has a big contract. Rangers? No way would they do it? Montreal? Yeah. But who would you want from them? Same with Toronto. Those two franchises are a mess.




Columbus... ?


Minnesota wouldn't be a bad destination either. They certainly have a deep prospect pool. I'll take a combination of 2 of Granlund, Coyle, or Brodin + picks.


You need proven roster players back for Malkin in a trade. You can't risk trading him for talent that never develops like we did with Jagr.


Yeah agree. But they weren't that high end of prospects that CP got for Jagr. Likely he could have held out into a bidding war, but he just dumped him.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby shmenguin on Tue May 01, 2012 10:36 am

sil wrote:You need proven roster players back for Malkin in a trade. You can't risk trading him for talent that never develops like we did with Jagr.


you need proven roster players, but only ones with favorable contracts. you don't trade him for a guy who is at his peak salary. in effect, that's no different than just buying a free agent.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby TheHammer24 on Tue May 01, 2012 11:36 am

You have, literally, the two best players in the World on your team. Why would you ever trade one of them? You have an absolute spoil of riches, and people want to dish one of them to save $3 million and keep a #1/2 center?

If you can't afford Malkin, you get rid of TK-Staal. You get rid of Orpik. You get rid of anyone but Sid and Malkin. A trade would not fetch anything worthwhile either, as what would be coming back salary-wise would be worse than what you gave.

Just plane insanity to suggest trading Malkin or Sid, IMO.

Staal, although he had a good season, is not of that quality.

This is not Richards-St. Louis-Lecavalier. Sid and Geno are perennial Hart finalists. The TB Big Three (who all made more money than Staal) were top players in the league, but not at the level of Sid and Geno. Malkin's worst season was on par with what Richards did in a good season and what St. Louis did most seasons.

To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 01, 2012 11:51 am

TheHammer24 wrote:You have, literally, the two best players in the World on your team. Why would you ever trade one of them? You have an absolute spoil of riches, and people want to dish one of them to save $3 million and keep a #1/2 center?

If you can't afford Malkin, you get rid of TK-Staal. You get rid of Orpik. You get rid of anyone but Sid and Malkin. A trade would not fetch anything worthwhile either, as what would be coming back salary-wise would be worse than what you gave.

Just plane insanity to suggest trading Malkin or Sid, IMO.

Staal, although he had a good season, is not of that quality.

This is not Richards-St. Louis-Lecavalier. Sid and Geno are perennial Hart finalists. The TB Big Three (who all made more money than Staal) were top players in the league, but not at the level of Sid and Geno. Malkin's worst season was on par with what Richards did in a good season and what St. Louis did most seasons.

To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team.


Not that I want either traded but is that the best way to a Cup? 8 teams still have the potential to win and none of them have 2 of the best players in the world. Just saying!
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Samsdog on Tue May 01, 2012 11:53 am

If you don't know what a player's name is or how to spell it, your opinion automatically loses legitimacy in my eyes because you clearly don't know enough about the team to have an informed opinion about it.

That said...I don't foresee a situation where you can keep all 3 of the big centers without decimating the available cap space. Letang's salary could jump as high as $6 million on his next deal, you have to keep that in mind, as well as the fact that they're committed to Neal and Fleury at hefty price tags for the foreseeable future. Even if Staal jumps only to $5 and Crosby and Malkin both hover around $9, you have $44 million committed to Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, Fleury, and Staal. $16 million available for 14 players does not a contender make. Significant restructuring would have to occur to keep those 3 players, and if I'm Shero there's a lot of questions about the viability of signing 3 centers to first-liner deals and trying to fill the roster from there.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby TheHammer24 on Tue May 01, 2012 11:54 am

Luckybreak wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:You have, literally, the two best players in the World on your team. Why would you ever trade one of them? You have an absolute spoil of riches, and people want to dish one of them to save $3 million and keep a #1/2 center?

If you can't afford Malkin, you get rid of TK-Staal. You get rid of Orpik. You get rid of anyone but Sid and Malkin. A trade would not fetch anything worthwhile either, as what would be coming back salary-wise would be worse than what you gave.

Just plane insanity to suggest trading Malkin or Sid, IMO.

Staal, although he had a good season, is not of that quality.

This is not Richards-St. Louis-Lecavalier. Sid and Geno are perennial Hart finalists. The TB Big Three (who all made more money than Staal) were top players in the league, but not at the level of Sid and Geno. Malkin's worst season was on par with what Richards did in a good season and what St. Louis did most seasons.

To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team.


Not that I want either traded but is that the best way to a Cup? 8 teams still have the potential to win and none of them have 2 of the best players in the world. Just saying!

In every year that the Pens get eliminated, no team will have two of the best players in the world. Simply put, teams so very rarely get this lucky -- Messier-Gretzky, Jagr-Lemieux, when else does this happen?

The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 11:55 am

TheHammer24 wrote:You have, literally, the two best players in the World on your team. Why would you ever trade one of them? You have an absolute spoil of riches, and people want to dish one of them to save $3 million and keep a #1/2 center?

If you can't afford Malkin, you get rid of TK-Staal. You get rid of Orpik. You get rid of anyone but Sid and Malkin. A trade would not fetch anything worthwhile either, as what would be coming back salary-wise would be worse than what you gave.

Just plane insanity to suggest trading Malkin or Sid, IMO.

Staal, although he had a good season, is not of that quality.

This is not Richards-St. Louis-Lecavalier. Sid and Geno are perennial Hart finalists. The TB Big Three (who all made more money than Staal) were top players in the league, but not at the level of Sid and Geno. Malkin's worst season was on par with what Richards did in a good season and what St. Louis did most seasons.

To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team.


I understand what you're saying, I really do, but I also beleive that this mindset ("To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team") pretty much inhibits a teams ability to compete for championships...just my opinion though. I'd rather see the money used to even out the lineup than see it used to rack up Hart and Ross banners for the rafters.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 11:58 am

TheHammer24 wrote:In every year that the Pens get eliminated, no team will have two of the best players in the world. Simply put, teams so very rarely get this lucky -- Messier-Gretzky, Jagr-Lemieux, when else does this happen?


Messier/Gretzky competed in a capless era and did NOT have a team of grinders and fringe NHL talent all around them. The Jagr/Lemieux cups years had a plethora of deep talent all around them, and also played in a capless era.

Furthering this point...consider the mid-late 90's when the pens started to cut team salary due to certain factors...they were a top-heavy team with very little top-end talent outside of Lemiuex/Jagr/Francis...every year they competed for the Art Ross, but they always fell flat in the playoffs.

TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.
Last edited by sil on Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:You have, literally, the two best players in the World on your team. Why would you ever trade one of them? You have an absolute spoil of riches, and people want to dish one of them to save $3 million and keep a #1/2 center?

If you can't afford Malkin, you get rid of TK-Staal. You get rid of Orpik. You get rid of anyone but Sid and Malkin. A trade would not fetch anything worthwhile either, as what would be coming back salary-wise would be worse than what you gave.

Just plane insanity to suggest trading Malkin or Sid, IMO.

Staal, although he had a good season, is not of that quality.

This is not Richards-St. Louis-Lecavalier. Sid and Geno are perennial Hart finalists. The TB Big Three (who all made more money than Staal) were top players in the league, but not at the level of Sid and Geno. Malkin's worst season was on par with what Richards did in a good season and what St. Louis did most seasons.

To me, this means that if both demand 20% of Cap, you give it to them, and then you figure out what to do with the rest of your team.


Not that I want either traded but is that the best way to a Cup? 8 teams still have the potential to win and none of them have 2 of the best players in the world. Just saying!

In every year that the Pens get eliminated, no team will have two of the best players in the world. Simply put, teams so very rarely get this lucky -- Messier-Gretzky, Jagr-Lemieux, when else does this happen?

The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


How many times did the aforementioned guys win Cups in an era with this much parity? Lemieux-Jagr only won 2, Messier-Gretzky won 4 in an era with no salary cap and very little league parity.

It's 100000x harder in this era to win a Cup than in previous eras. Two players don't make a team. Not really sure what else to tell you except to temper your expectations, because they're way too high.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby TheHammer24 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm

sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.

My point is that this roster very clearly capable of being an incredible D with Geno-Sid, a bunch of grinders, and a talented D.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 12:33 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.

My point is that this roster very clearly capable of being an incredible D with Geno-Sid, a bunch of grinders, and a talented D.


Capable? Yes. Will they? Idk?
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Three Stars on Tue May 01, 2012 12:36 pm

sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.

My point is that this roster very clearly capable of being an incredible D with Geno-Sid, a bunch of grinders, and a talented D.


Capable? Yes. Will they? Idk?


My thought is that the current roster leaves very little margin for error. Either Geno and Sid are godly, the grinders produce above expectations, the defense moves the puck like they're capable, and Fleury plays well, OR they lose in the playoffs. It's like an all or nothing proposition. Remove one of those and the whole thing falls apart.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 12:40 pm

Three Stars wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.

My point is that this roster very clearly capable of being an incredible D with Geno-Sid, a bunch of grinders, and a talented D.


Capable? Yes. Will they? Idk?


My thought is that the current roster leaves very little margin for error. Either Geno and Sid are godly, the grinders produce above expectations, the defense moves the puck like they're capable, and Fleury plays well, OR they lose in the playoffs. It's like an all or nothing proposition. Remove one of those and the whole thing falls apart.


For the most part I agree...but we still really lack a pair of defenders (like Scuderi and Gill) that can shut down an opponent in a series. Give me our current roster, but swap out Martin and Orpik for Scuderi and Suter...and I'd say our margin for effor improves. If our big guns don't fill the net, we have a D that can really lock down. As we're built (and playing) under Bylsma...we're not winning unless we score 4 goals. Perhaps an extreme, but not too far from the truth.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby TheHammer24 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:51 pm

Three Stars wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
sil wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The Pens had one of the best D's in the league last season; add the two best players in the World they should win the Cup.


They were ALL there against Philly, and looked like the worst team in the playoffs.

My point is that this roster very clearly capable of being an incredible D with Geno-Sid, a bunch of grinders, and a talented D.


Capable? Yes. Will they? Idk?


My thought is that the current roster leaves very little margin for error. Either Geno and Sid are godly, the grinders produce above expectations, the defense moves the puck like they're capable, and Fleury plays well, OR they lose in the playoffs. It's like an all or nothing proposition. Remove one of those and the whole thing falls apart.

Yeah - Aren't you just saying winning the cup in the Cap Era is really hard to do? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but that is the underlying point. You can't build a cup-guaranteed team, you just have to maximize the probability that come June you're still playing for it.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby Three Stars on Tue May 01, 2012 1:35 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Three Stars wrote:My thought is that the current roster leaves very little margin for error. Either Geno and Sid are godly, the grinders produce above expectations, the defense moves the puck like they're capable, and Fleury plays well, OR they lose in the playoffs. It's like an all or nothing proposition. Remove one of those and the whole thing falls apart.

Yeah - Aren't you just saying winning the cup in the Cap Era is really hard to do? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but that is the underlying point. You can't build a cup-guaranteed team, you just have to maximize the probability that come June you're still playing for it.


Say that a team figures out how to utterly neutralize one or both of the Penguins' top 2 centers. (Such as chipping Malkin until he starts playing stupidly.) Who else on that line is going to carry the load?

Kunitz - XXXXX - Neal
Sullivan - XXXXX - Dupuis

Neal's good but he needs a strong playmaking center. Kunitz is productive but only to a point and is aging, and for some reason loses his scoring touch in the playoffs. Sullivan's a playmaker but is old. Dupuis produced way beyond his career numbers this past year, and I'm not planning on that happening again. Each of their lines are utterly dependent on their centers to create offense. The wings are complementary pieces with the possibly exception of Neal. A smart opponent is going to beat the crap out of Crosby and/or Malkin and have no fear of their linemates whatsoever. We've seen this in Pittsburgh before, but at least when we were throwing out Naslund-Lemieux-Kevin Miller we had a Francis-Jagr line to pick up the slack. Plus, that was Mario Lemieux who could put up 160 points with linemates like that.

You can beat the Penguins' defense by simply keeping the puck in their zone longer than 9 seconds at which point their battle plan runs out. A good puck possession team can (and did) pick them apart.

Fleury can be leaky at entirely the wrong time, and there's basically no viable backup.

So, that's a lot of things that can go (and have gone) wrong with this team as it's constructed.
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Re: Jordan Staal - perhaps the big story for this offseason

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 1:44 pm

What happened in 2009 during games 5, 6, and 7 when Detroit basically neutralized Malkin and Crosby? In game 5 we threw a 60-minute temper tantrum, but then in games 6 and 7 we controlled the play with secondary role players (especially the Cooke/Staal/Kennedy line), ground down whoever the Wings had leftover when their Malkin/Crosby shadows were on the bench, and wore our shutdown pair of D till they went out of style.

This is how we won the cup in 2009...it wasn't Malkin tearing up the wings...it was a more balanced team with some very strong defensive defenders (Scuderi, Gill, and to a lesser extent Eaton). Everyone wants to see Crosby, Malkin, and Staal in the top 6 and leave our third and fourth lines as garbage...well, that'll probably get us another Art Ross trophy, but (especially with the D we have now) I don't see us winning the cup with that model...or even coming close.
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