Martin - options?

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Re: Martin - options?

Postby wondermoose on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:29 pm

I'm not sure if people don't want to get rid of Martin or if people think the Pens couldn't unload him. Because they could in a heartbeat. Let's say Nashville loses Weber or Suter, they need to fill in that gap. Detroit needs defensemen in the Rafalski mold. How about Edmonton? They'll take anyone that is willing.

What I'm trying to say is, just because Martin has had a rough couple of seasons doesn't mean he isn't a good player anymore. For whatever reason, it ain't working out here. It just isn't! If it isn't ill-advised pinches, it's getting walked around on the outside or missing the open stick in front of the crease. I've watched Paul Martin play well for a long time, but he isn't jiving with this team.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:37 pm

wondermoose wrote:I'm not sure if people don't want to get rid of Martin or if people think the Pens couldn't unload him. Because they could in a heartbeat. Let's say Nashville loses Weber or Suter, they need to fill in that gap. Detroit needs defensemen in the Rafalski mold. How about Edmonton? They'll take anyone that is willing.

What I'm trying to say is, just because Martin has had a rough couple of seasons doesn't mean he isn't a good player anymore. For whatever reason, it ain't working out here. It just isn't! If it isn't ill-advised pinches, it's getting walked around on the outside or missing the open stick in front of the crease. I've watched Paul Martin play well for a long time, but he isn't jiving with this team.

How is it not working out. He had a pretty darn good first season here and had a down season this year that is getting blown way out of proportion. Further everyone saying Despres/Strait/Morrow/Bortuzzo can fill his spot are lying to themselves. While those guys, Despres particularly, have looked good they are not ready to eat the 2nd most minutes per game behind Letang. Nor is free agency a sure bet to deliver a guy who will 1. play better than Martin and 2. Come at a better price. The team hasn't been whole for more than a month since M&M arrived here and throwing a guy out to pasture after the team that he played huge minutes for just nearly had the best record in the NHL is fool hardy and reactionary at best.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby meow on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:37 pm

IanMoran wrote:
meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.

Its so much easier to blame 1 person. Martin is that person

Oh, right, right, right. Well that's pretty narrow-minded considering this is a team game.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:44 pm

mikey287 wrote:I'm typically pretty reasonable when it comes to trades I think and typically err on the side of conservative caution, especially with Shero who is a no frills type of GM...but let's just say, as both of the main pieces had bad seasons...

Paul Martin, Eric Tangradi and a mid-level pick or thereabouts
for
Ryan Malone

No editing, no changing, no nothing...would you do it? The Lightning aren't wild about Malone and his salary but they do like his size and his warrior attitude but they are concerned about his money, his injuries and the fact that he's getting surpassed on the depth chart by higher skill guys and they can probably find a cheaper version of him. They can insert size into their lineup with Tangradi, it also sweetens the pot as they do take on money in the deal (not as easy for them as it is for us). They don't like the idea of Paul Martin all that much, but given the quality of their defense recently, he'd be a good fit in a more passive system and he's a very good puck-rusher believe it or not and could allow the Lightning to exit the defensive zone more efficiently than they are now (which is a hit or miss proposition if MSL or Stammer doesn't do it).

I'm not sure if Yzerman would go for it (or Shero for that matter), but I'd say it's about the most effective way to get rid of Martin. I really don't think we're in a position to try to squeeze too much value out of Martin...I don't see a landscape where someone would give us a 4th round pick for him, ya know? And it's a shame, because he really is a good player - just not here. It's tough to gauge the value of a player like this really, ya never know what GM out there thinks, "ya know, I've seen him his whole career, I really like him, let's get him on the cheap" and actually throws a decent asset at us (a 3rd and a middling prospect, say)...but assuming that he has limited value, would you sweeten the pot for someone to take him in exchange for a contract back.

Nah the Pens don't need a guy like Malone at that price. If Malone was 4 years younger then yes but right now he's so injury prone that he'd be worse for this team than the incarnation of Martin that was seen this year. Also (and not you Mikey) but man if Malone was a whipping boy when he actually played here I couldn't imagine the distaste for him now that he's older, broken down, and even slower... I don't think Malone makes this team better even as a 500k savings. Change Malone to Purcell and I'm listening though :fist:
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Froggy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:57 pm

No to Malone. Also, the cherry picking of a small sample of stats with Martin is hilarious.

Martin will play out his contract in Pittsburgh. Get used to this idea
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby columbia on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:06 pm

That Malone contract was terrible at the time and I certainly don't want to see his broken down carcass in a Pens uniform again.

Having said that, I still root for him.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:12 pm

meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.


Well, I'm not even one of the all out must get rid of Martin board members, but it's not hard to see why.

Because thats about the same percentage that:
-thinks that this team needs a tweak at minimum (based on the last 3 years)
-believes that this team isn't fast enough
-believes that this team isn't big enough
-believes that this team isn't young enough
-does not like the way the defense let the team down
-would prefer not to trade away key pieces (Letang), leaders (Orpik), defensive dmen (Michalek), or cheaper alternatives (Nisky, Despres, Engelland, etc)
-understands how the salary cap is going to effect the team going forward


That leaves Martin to be moved so that a more positionally sound defensive dman can be brought in. Plus it's not like other dmen aren't included in theoretical trades. I'm pretty sure I have seen everyone in the organizational top 10 traded besides possibly Engelland and I'm sure I just missed that one.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby penny lane on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:14 pm

columbia wrote:That Malone contract was terrible at the time and I certainly don't want to see his broken down carcass in a Pens uniform again.

Having said that, I still root for him.

:thumb:

Ryan Malone on the team; always took care of the players targeting Sid/Evgeni. But that was in 07/08; need a player with that size and the stomach to take on that job. Malone has the hands to score goals & is able to stand in front of the net. Need to find this type of a player. Oh & with speed. :D
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby NJ5934 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:34 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Wow Martin went from anchoring one of the top D in the league to out of the league in one season. You guys are funny.


You are kidding, right?

Martin was like a -14 three quarters of the way through the season....I would not call him the anchor of anything.


Lest we forget last season?

And if you want to use +/-, he was a +9 this year. And last year.


Martin was a team worst -14 until the last 15 games of the season. Nobody said anything about Martin not being an NHL player....at least I didn't, but if I were trying to resign Staal, Sid and Letang....I could do a lot better with 5 million dollars than Paul Martin.

I still LMAO at the "anchor" comment.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:58 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:I probably don't do that, Mikey. Close though. What does Malone add to the team over Sully or Dups? I'm not convinced Martin is going to be horrible next year or even that je was that bad this year.


Size. The Pens badly are lacking in that department.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:08 pm

NJ5934 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Wow Martin went from anchoring one of the top D in the league to out of the league in one season. You guys are funny.


You are kidding, right?

Martin was like a -14 three quarters of the way through the season....I would not call him the anchor of anything.


Lest we forget last season?

And if you want to use +/-, he was a +9 this year. And last year.


Martin was a team worst -14 until the last 15 games of the season. Nobody said anything about Martin not being an NHL player....at least I didn't, but if I were trying to resign Staal, Sid and Letang....I could do a lot better with 5 million dollars than Paul Martin.

I still LMAO at the "anchor" comment.


My point was +/- is a terrible statistic to judge a player's individual skill.

There's also a million different ways it can be used, which is why it's useless in the 1st place.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:12 pm

meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.


Most fans could give you about 5 million reasons why.

I'd hate to see Staal or Orpik have to be traded because of cap reasons, while Martin is sucking up 5 million in cap space that could have been better spent. I have no doubt the Pens will be able to find a taker for him, but they would likely have to accept some salary in return. Mikey's suggestion of Malone might be the most practical because it helps both teams. So basically you let Sully go, replace him with Malone, and replace Martin with Despres and you save some money. But they would still be lacking a right handed shooter on the power play.

That is why people are suggesting Weber. If you trade Staal for a first rounder and it opens up the space to sign Weber, that's the only way I'd even consider doing it. But my God, if Shero could pull all of that off, it would be a miracle. Say they get Yakupov in the first round, then you've basically swapped: Staal, Martin, and Sullivan for Weber, Malone, and Yakupov.

Now I realize that this is not NHL2012 on Ps3.....but I was just following up on Mikey's Martin for Malone suggestion.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby wondermoose on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:14 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
wondermoose wrote:I'm not sure if people don't want to get rid of Martin or if people think the Pens couldn't unload him. Because they could in a heartbeat. Let's say Nashville loses Weber or Suter, they need to fill in that gap. Detroit needs defensemen in the Rafalski mold. How about Edmonton? They'll take anyone that is willing.

What I'm trying to say is, just because Martin has had a rough couple of seasons doesn't mean he isn't a good player anymore. For whatever reason, it ain't working out here. It just isn't! If it isn't ill-advised pinches, it's getting walked around on the outside or missing the open stick in front of the crease. I've watched Paul Martin play well for a long time, but he isn't jiving with this team.

How is it not working out. He had a pretty darn good first season here and had a down season this year that is getting blown way out of proportion. Further everyone saying Despres/Strait/Morrow/Bortuzzo can fill his spot are lying to themselves. While those guys, Despres particularly, have looked good they are not ready to eat the 2nd most minutes per game behind Letang. Nor is free agency a sure bet to deliver a guy who will 1. play better than Martin and 2. Come at a better price. The team hasn't been whole for more than a month since M&M arrived here and throwing a guy out to pasture after the team that he played huge minutes for just nearly had the best record in the NHL is fool hardy and reactionary at best.


I think the one bad season makes him prime for removal compared to anyone else in the organization. He takes up valuable cap room and he's been mediocre. I think you are really fooling yourself if you think he had a "good" season last year. He was "good" at times, but I would hardly consider his impact equivalent of his cap hit. The thing that rubs me the most is that I like the guy and I think he's a great player! But he's not doing what we need him to. You can't deny it! I'm not putting the blame on him solely, but he's paid what he is to be an outcome-changer. He has done little to live up that. I don't think any of the defensemen in the system can replace him, at first, but I think you are sorely mistaken if you don't think Despres is on his way to being a much better player. With the right offseason replacement, I think the Pens could be significantly better, and I think Paul Martin can be significantly better elsewhere.

Now, this is, of course, based on the assumption that there's an upgrade available (for which I believe there will be opportunities). This isn't a Wade Redden situation where other teams want to have nothing to do with his contract. He's not getting thrown "out to the pasture" if he gets moved. If it happens, I think it is going to be mutually accepted and without hard feelings.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby columbia on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:15 pm

Malone has 3 more years at $4.5M, so it's very unclear how that helps with the cap situation.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:16 pm

RxBandit66 wrote:
meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.


Most fans could give you about 5 million reasons why.

I'd hate to see Staal or Orpik have to be traded because of cap reasons, while Martin is sucking up 5 million in cap space that could have been better spent. I have no doubt the Pens will be able to find a taker for him, but they would likely have to accept some salary in return. Mikey's suggestion of Malone might be the most practical because it helps both teams. So basically you let Sully go, replace him with Malone, and replace Martin with Despres and you save some money. But they would still be lacking a right handed shooter on the power play.

That is why people are suggesting Weber. If you trade Staal for a first rounder and it opens up the space to sign Weber, that's the only way I'd even consider doing it. But my God, if Shero could pull all of that off, it would be a miracle. Say they get Yakupov in the first round, then you've basically swapped: Staal, Martin, and Sullivan for Weber, Malone, and Yakupov.

Now I realize that this is not NHL2012 on Ps3.....but I was just following up on Mikey's Martin for Malone suggestion.


Will you guys constantly crap on Weber when we're paying him $7 million and he has a few off games?

I don't really get it. You guys sit here and complain about Martin's salary, but you're gonna be paying AT LEAST $2 million more for Weber.

Heaven forbid that happens and he has a few bad games.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:25 pm

RxBandit66 wrote:
meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.


Most fans could give you about 5 million reasons why.

I'd hate to see Staal or Orpik have to be traded because of cap reasons, while Martin is sucking up 5 million in cap space that could have been better spent. I have no doubt the Pens will be able to find a taker for him, but they would likely have to accept some salary in return. Mikey's suggestion of Malone might be the most practical because it helps both teams. So basically you let Sully go, replace him with Malone, and replace Martin with Despres and you save some money. But they would still be lacking a right handed shooter on the power play.

That is why people are suggesting Weber. If you trade Staal for a first rounder and it opens up the space to sign Weber, that's the only way I'd even consider doing it. But my God, if Shero could pull all of that off, it would be a miracle. Say they get Yakupov in the first round, then you've basically swapped: Staal, Martin, and Sullivan for Weber, Malone, and Yakupov.

Now I realize that this is not NHL2012 on Ps3.....but I was just following up on Mikey's Martin for Malone suggestion.

Weber is an RFA. As soon as someone gives a good plan that replaces Martin with a player capable of eating 23 mins a night then I'll listen. Until then it's hatred with very little evidence.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Nizzy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:18 pm

Martin has to go.

Costs too much, brings too little.

Despres, Bortuzzo, Strait are all bigger, younger, cheaper, HUNGRIER. These 3 defenseman all will be on entry level deals, Shero's typical 3 year, low salary deals for the next 4-5 years I'd imagine. They've all been brought up through the system. They know what to expect coming up, from how they should play. Automatically it probably makes them better options of Martin.

Getting rid of Martin's contract:

Allows us to give Staal 2M more.
Allows us to give Letang his money.
Gets younger guys that want it more on the team, a bigger 1-7 defensive group.

Letang Orpik
Michalek Niskanen
Despres Engelland
Strait Bortuzzo
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby shmenguin on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:19 pm

shero didn't want to give malone that contract when malone was on an upswing. and now that his trajectory is pointing downward, i don't see how his opinion would change.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby offsides on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:21 pm

shmenguin wrote:shero didn't want to give malone that contract when malone was on an upswing. and now that his trajectory is pointing downward, i don't see how his opinion would change.


Good point, I like Malone but not enough to bring him here now.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:24 pm

Nizzy wrote:Martin has to go.

Costs too much, brings too little.

Despres, Bortuzzo, Strait are all bigger, younger, cheaper, HUNGRIER. These 3 defenseman all will be on entry level deals, Shero's typical 3 year, low salary deals for the next 4-5 years I'd imagine. They've all been brought up through the system. They know what to expect coming up, from how they should play. Automatically it probably makes them better options of Martin.

Getting rid of Martin's contract:

Allows us to give Staal 2M more.
Allows us to give Letang his money.
Gets younger guys that want it more on the team, a bigger 1-7 defensive group.

Letang Orpik
Michalek Niskanen
Despres Engelland
Strait Bortuzzo


So how do you plan on getting rid of his contract? Trade? That brings salary in return (there is no way Shero is trading Martin simply for picks). Can't buy him out if current CBA rules apply, as you're still paying at least $2.5 mil of his cap hit.. Can't send him down, cap hit still counts...

Does anyone actually think before they suddenly make a $5 mil contract with 3 years left on it suddenly disappear?
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby stonyman on Tue May 01, 2012 7:19 am

You can come up with all the scenarios, trades and lineups that you want, but there are 3 words you are all forgetting:

NO MOVEMENT CLAUSE.

Paul Martin is not going anywhere he does not want to go.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Pensrock on Tue May 01, 2012 8:24 am

I would not do that trade for Malone.

As for trading Martin, I want to trade him because I think there are capable players behind him like Depres, Strait, Morrow is close(probably not next year but close), etc.... that can fill his role for much cheaper. Removing his contract gives a much greater chance they can afford to resign guys like Crosby, Staal, Malkin long term.

I would hate to have to trade a Staal for example over a couple million dollars in cap space that wasn't there because Martin had a $5 million cap hit that could have been saved by trading him and letting a young guy who was ready take his spot.

Has nothing to do with hating Martin or thinking he sucks although he did not have a good year.

It has to do more with trying to keep the true stars of the team intact.

I would put Martin, Michalek, and even Kunitz in that same category. The contracts they have are all high and I would hate to see one of the core young guys have to get moved because of the cap space they eat up.

Now, if you trade a Staal for Hockey reasons and get a great return back that fills multiple needs, well then that is different. But if you trade Staal for a salary dump and keep players like Martin, Michalek and Kunitz when they could have been traded, then I would be upset.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 8:39 am

stonyman wrote:You can come up with all the scenarios, trades and lineups that you want, but there are 3 words you are all forgetting:

NO MOVEMENT CLAUSE.

Paul Martin is not going anywhere he does not want to go.


NMC prevents him from being placed on waivers or sent through waivers to WB/S. His NTC (which is limited) is what hampers a trade. If Shero told Martin he wanted to trade him, Paul probably wouldn't put up a huge road block considering the situation. I firmly believe Shero would try to move Martin before he would Malkin, or Staal should the NEED arise because of cap concerns.

FTR, Orpik and Michalek both have NTC's as well.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Defence21 on Tue May 01, 2012 9:09 am

Here's an interesting question. Does a no movement clause prevent a team from using a buyout on the player? There's much talk that the next CBA likely will have an amnesty buyout period -- would Martin's NMC prevent him from being a victim?
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:16 am

Defence21 wrote:Here's an interesting question. Does a no movement clause prevent a team from using a buyout on the player? There's much talk that the next CBA likely will have an amnesty buyout period -- would Martin's NMC prevent him from being a victim?


If they include the one-time amnesty, it would supercede the clauses. The pens would be able to buy him out without suffering a cap hit.
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