Martin - options?

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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Froggy on Tue May 01, 2012 9:16 am

A buy out isn't a realistic option. Martin at 5 mil is better than no one for 2.5 mil
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue May 01, 2012 9:19 am

RxBandit66 wrote:
meow wrote:I don't understand why 98% of Pens fans have Martin out the door.


Most fans could give you about 5 million reasons why.

I'd hate to see Staal or Orpik have to be traded because of cap reasons, while Martin is sucking up 5 million in cap space that could have been better spent. I have no doubt the Pens will be able to find a taker for him, but they would likely have to accept some salary in return. Mikey's suggestion of Malone might be the most practical because it helps both teams. So basically you let Sully go, replace him with Malone, and replace Martin with Despres and you save some money. But they would still be lacking a right handed shooter on the power play.

That is why people are suggesting Weber. If you trade Staal for a first rounder and it opens up the space to sign Weber, that's the only way I'd even consider doing it. But my God, if Shero could pull all of that off, it would be a miracle. Say they get Yakupov in the first round, then you've basically swapped: Staal, Martin, and Sullivan for Weber, Malone, and Yakupov.

Now I realize that this is not NHL2012 on Ps3.....but I was just following up on Mikey's Martin for Malone suggestion.


I actually wouldn't mind seeing Orpik being shipped out of here before any of our defenseman. His only quality is making a splash hit at the blue line once every 7 games. Of course he for no good reason spends a lot of time by the blue line and letting forwards get behind him.

In all seriousness he just is not the player he once was, a bit broken down. In my eyes he was just as much of an issue as any of our guys.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby mikey287 on Tue May 01, 2012 9:21 am

Defence21 wrote:Here's an interesting question. Does a no movement clause prevent a team from using a buyout on the player? There's much talk that the next CBA likely will have an amnesty buyout period -- would Martin's NMC prevent him from being a victim?


No, players with NMC are not precluded from being bought out.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby DelPen on Tue May 01, 2012 9:22 am

It's either keep Martin and his bloated contract or be able to keep Niskanen and bring in players like Sullivan and not have to hope Lovejoy, Kennedy, Tangradi and Jeffrey play above their contracts.

I don't think the guy is tradeable unfortunately and Bylsma is not the right coach for Martin. Lose-lose situation until one or both preferably, are gone.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:30 am

mikey287 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:Here's an interesting question. Does a no movement clause prevent a team from using a buyout on the player? There's much talk that the next CBA likely will have an amnesty buyout period -- would Martin's NMC prevent him from being a victim?


No, players with NMC are not precluded from being bought out.


I thought that was the point of the one-time amnesty clause...to allow a team to supercede that one time only.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 9:32 am

DelPen wrote:It's either keep Martin and his bloated contract or be able to keep Niskanen and bring in players like Sullivan and not have to hope Lovejoy, Kennedy, Tangradi and Jeffrey play above their contracts.

I don't think the guy is tradeable unfortunately and Bylsma is not the right coach for Martin. Lose-lose situation until one or both preferably, are gone.


I don't know if it's that extreme in either case. Look at Colorado. They have all of three (3) defensemen signed for next season, and will be about $45,000,000 below the cap. They could very much use a guy like Paul Martin to move the puck up quickly to their young forward talent.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby mikey287 on Tue May 01, 2012 9:34 am

sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:Here's an interesting question. Does a no movement clause prevent a team from using a buyout on the player? There's much talk that the next CBA likely will have an amnesty buyout period -- would Martin's NMC prevent him from being a victim?


No, players with NMC are not precluded from being bought out.


I thought that was the point of the one-time amnesty clause...to allow a team to supercede that one time only.


Players with NMC can block a move sending them to the minors, but provided they are healthy - they may be bought out in the designated buyout windows as provided by the CBA.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Froggy on Tue May 01, 2012 9:38 am

sil wrote:
DelPen wrote:It's either keep Martin and his bloated contract or be able to keep Niskanen and bring in players like Sullivan and not have to hope Lovejoy, Kennedy, Tangradi and Jeffrey play above their contracts.

I don't think the guy is tradeable unfortunately and Bylsma is not the right coach for Martin. Lose-lose situation until one or both preferably, are gone.


I don't know if it's that extreme in either case. Look at Colorado. They have all of three (3) defensemen signed for next season, and will be about $45,000,000 below the cap. They could very much use a guy like Paul Martin to move the puck up quickly to their young forward talent.

I don't see Martin waiving his ntc to go to a western Conf bottom feeder though.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Streaks House on Tue May 01, 2012 9:57 am

Froggy wrote:
sil wrote:
DelPen wrote:It's either keep Martin and his bloated contract or be able to keep Niskanen and bring in players like Sullivan and not have to hope Lovejoy, Kennedy, Tangradi and Jeffrey play above their contracts.

I don't think the guy is tradeable unfortunately and Bylsma is not the right coach for Martin. Lose-lose situation until one or both preferably, are gone.


I don't know if it's that extreme in either case. Look at Colorado. They have all of three (3) defensemen signed for next season, and will be about $45,000,000 below the cap. They could very much use a guy like Paul Martin to move the puck up quickly to their young forward talent.

I don't see Martin waiving his ntc to go to a western Conf bottom feeder though.


GMRS and PM sit down and agree that it's not working out here, I don't see any reasons why PM wouldn't be on board with a fresh start. 3 years here knowing that you aren't really wanted/good fit, I think he'd realize this and cut his losses and move on. Granted, this sets a bad precedent for future FA signings, but this is a business and you have to be cutthroat at times.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 01, 2012 10:42 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I actually wouldn't mind seeing Orpik being shipped out of here before any of our defenseman. His only quality is making a splash hit at the blue line once every 7 games. Of course he for no good reason spends a lot of time by the blue line and letting forwards get behind him.

In all seriousness he just is not the player he once was, a bit broken down. In my eyes he was just as much of an issue as any of our guys.


This season seemed to mark a severe regression in the play of the top 4 D. Letang (as the youngest, most productive and having suffered serious injury) is exempt.

Orpik's recovery from hernia surgery was noticeably slow. After regaining his health he apparently forgot the praise garnered for selecting hits more prudently. This rediscovered desire to take himself out the play was detrimental to the Pens defensive coverage. My view on trading Orpik depends on which version we would be replacing, the defensive liability or physical 'team conscience'?

Michalek's greatest strengths - effectively stopping shots or passes with his body - became his biggest weakness, regularly dropping too soon and removing himself from the play. I believe this was a confidence issue, coinciding with (and potentially influenced by) Martin's decline. The pairing with Orpik failed as both players were removing themselves from effective positional coverage.

Martin does all the 'little things' with ease, plays a cerebral brand of hockey, is reliable under pressure and makes the right decisions... Except he didn't. His game looked best when Bylsma implemented a defence orientated system, but was criticised heavily before and after this. Essentially Martin is one of the best 'square pegs' in the league, but HCDB has created a round hole and he simply doesn't fit.

I think the posters vehemently defending Martin's abilities are right, he is a great D man. Those defending his spot on the Penguins need to question what will best serve him and the team given the fact the coach is returning, the system might be, and there are core players needing to be re-signed.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Froggy on Tue May 01, 2012 11:58 am

Streaks House wrote:
Froggy wrote:
sil wrote:
DelPen wrote:It's either keep Martin and his bloated contract or be able to keep Niskanen and bring in players like Sullivan and not have to hope Lovejoy, Kennedy, Tangradi and Jeffrey play above their contracts.

I don't think the guy is tradeable unfortunately and Bylsma is not the right coach for Martin. Lose-lose situation until one or both preferably, are gone.


I don't know if it's that extreme in either case. Look at Colorado. They have all of three (3) defensemen signed for next season, and will be about $45,000,000 below the cap. They could very much use a guy like Paul Martin to move the puck up quickly to their young forward talent.

I don't see Martin waiving his ntc to go to a western Conf bottom feeder though.


GMRS and PM sit down and agree that it's not working out here, I don't see any reasons why PM wouldn't be on board with a fresh start. 3 years here knowing that you aren't really wanted/good fit, I think he'd realize this and cut his losses and move on. Granted, this sets a bad precedent for future FA signings, but this is a business and you have to be cutthroat at times.


and this is again assuming that DB & RS are dissatisfied with his play, and want him gone, which there is no evidence of, not even anecdotal.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby pfim on Tue May 01, 2012 12:01 pm

Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:04 pm

pfim wrote:Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.


Because one year is a small sample size, considering how different and better his play was last year.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 12:04 pm

pfim wrote:Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.


I remember how thrilled I was on July 1, 2010...I guess some hope remains.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 12:06 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
pfim wrote:Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.


Because one year is a small sample size, considering how different and better his play was last year.


His play in 2010-11 was better than 2011-12, but still not close to what a lot of us were expecting. And perhaps that was our mistake having our hopes too high.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:07 pm

sil wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
pfim wrote:Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.


Because one year is a small sample size, considering how different and better his play was last year.


His play in 2010-11 was better than 2011-12, but still not close to what a lot of us were expecting. And perhaps that was our mistake having our hopes too high.


That's very true. Sounds like the MO here...
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby pfim on Tue May 01, 2012 12:17 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
pfim wrote:Puck retrieval, transition, solid defensive play. This is why he's on the team and why he was given the contract he has. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he has excelled in any of those areas this season.

I don't know if he will be moved or not, but it's not that ridiculous that some would want him gone.


Because one year is a small sample size, considering how different and better his play was last year.


He's 31 and is the highest paid defenseman on the team. His play was a bitter disappointment. Playing like this for an entire season is not a small sample size.

If you believe he reverts back to form, keep him. No one should care at this point how he played this season, only how he will play next season.

If you don't believe he will, find a way to move him. I don't think either scenario is unreasonable.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Froggy on Tue May 01, 2012 12:24 pm

Be fair here. Martin was awful to start the season, he improved in Nov/Dec, after he was split with Z, and he was our best d man down the stretch. To say he was terrible the entire season is wrong
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:13 pm

Let's do a straight swap with the Rangers. Martin/Michalek for 2 of Staal/Girardi/McDonagh. If they can make a little cap room they should go for it, right? Because we'd be giving them two SUPERIOR defensemen. I mean, they have to be superior because they make more money.

$5,000,000 Martin
$4,000,000 Michalek

$3,975,000 Staal
$3,325,000 Girardi
$1,300,000 McDonagh

It makes me want to throw up my breakfast when I think of M&M not only taking a large chuck of team's cap space, but also valuable roster spots and ice time. This has actually less to do for me about their salaries, but mostly with building a strong and balanced group on defense. Their type of play doesn't fit in anywhere in how I would build my top 6. Even if we find a physical shutdown defensemen or, lets say, trade for a guy like Suter, where does he play? Letang and Orpik are one pair. We have a nice and cheap tandem in Niskanen - who wants to stay with the Pens so badly, I'd really try to retain him since he has come such a long way in improving his play - and Engelland. So one of the M/M pair has to be traded. And if we bring in Despres, as we should, then we have to get rid of the other one as well. I really don't see where they fit in the lineup. We badly need another quarterback and a strong shot on the back end. And we need 2 - not 1 - shutdown defensemen who will hit and clear the crease. There is no room for M/M.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 01, 2012 1:15 pm

Froggy wrote:Be fair here. Martin was awful to start the season, he improved in Nov/Dec, after he was split with Z, and he was our best d man down the stretch. To say he was terrible the entire season is wrong


He was fine for a while with Letang, then folded like a cheap sofa under pressure and physical play of the Flyers.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Froggy wrote:Be fair here. Martin was awful to start the season, he improved in Nov/Dec, after he was split with Z, and he was our best d man down the stretch. To say he was terrible the entire season is wrong


He was fine for a while with Letang, then folded like a cheap sofa under pressure and physical play of the Flyers.


Yup. And yes before anyone says it again, so did everyone else. But I agree with Sarcastic - I've been trying to do a 'You're the GM' and honestly can't because they just don't fit. Nisky and Engel have thrived as the 3rd pair in a system that seems to have destroyed M+M. I would be happy with Letang-Orpik, Nisky-Allen, Despres-Engelland. On paper it looks like a downgrade but I think it addresses the size issues whilst freeing up cap for Staal/Letang.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby sil on Tue May 01, 2012 1:55 pm

Just to throw another wrench out there...I, personally, would rather be rid of Orpik before Michalek.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 01, 2012 2:05 pm

sil wrote:Just to throw another wrench out there...I, personally, would rather be rid of Orpik before Michalek.


Depends on who fills that spot...
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby shmenguin on Tue May 01, 2012 2:06 pm

Froggy wrote:Be fair here. Martin was awful to start the season, he improved in Nov/Dec, after he was split with Z, and he was our best d man down the stretch. To say he was terrible the entire season is wrong


but to be double fair, he was only our best dman when letang was out with his 2nd concussion. but yes - it's inaccurate to say he was terrible literally the entire season. but it is accurate to say that overall, he didn't nearly play at the level he should have.

and like pfim said - he's the highest paid defenseman. the excuse that "everyone else sucked too" only goes so far. he has implicitly higher expectations on him.
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Re: Martin - options?

Postby SteelCityFan on Tue May 01, 2012 2:15 pm

Nizzy wrote:Martin has to go.

Costs too much, brings too little.

Despres, Bortuzzo, Strait are all bigger, younger, cheaper, HUNGRIER. These 3 defenseman all will be on entry level deals, Shero's typical 3 year, low salary deals for the next 4-5 years I'd imagine. They've all been brought up through the system. They know what to expect coming up, from how they should play. Automatically it probably makes them better options of Martin.

Getting rid of Martin's contract:

Allows us to give Staal 2M more.
Allows us to give Letang his money.
Gets younger guys that want it more on the team, a bigger 1-7 defensive group.

Letang Orpik
Michalek Niskanen
Despres Engelland
Strait Bortuzzo


Perfect! :thumb:
Martin is just not worth what we are paying him. Especially with the younger guys knocking at the door with entry level deals in hand.
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