Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby IanMoran on Thu May 10, 2012 4:38 pm

Paul Martin - 5 mill
Zybnek Michalek - 4 mill
Brooks Orpik - 3.75

When your top 3 paid defense men all play pretty horrible relative their cap hit, is it really a surprise the defense collapsed?

I don't think its really anymore complicated than that... I don't think major changes of whole organization need to happen, just we need more from our D (or to replace them)
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby Gaucho on Thu May 10, 2012 4:48 pm

IanMoran wrote:Paul Martin - 5 mill
Zybnek Michalek - 4 mill
Brooks Orpik - 3.75

When your top 3 paid defense men all play pretty horrible relative their cap hit, is it really a surprise the defense collapsed?

I don't think its really anymore complicated than that... I don't think major changes of whole organization need to happen, just we need more from our D (or to replace them)


You might as well include Letang. He didn't play well either.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby tfrizz on Thu May 10, 2012 6:05 pm

Gaucho wrote:
IanMoran wrote:Paul Martin - 5 mill
Zybnek Michalek - 4 mill
Brooks Orpik - 3.75

When your top 3 paid defense men all play pretty horrible relative their cap hit, is it really a surprise the defense collapsed?

I don't think its really anymore complicated than that... I don't think major changes of whole organization need to happen, just we need more from our D (or to replace them)


You might as well include Letang. He didn't play well either.


I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I actually think Niskanen was the Pens' best defenseman in the playoffs :?
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby darkstar57 on Thu May 10, 2012 6:08 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
IanMoran wrote:Paul Martin - 5 mill
Zybnek Michalek - 4 mill
Brooks Orpik - 3.75

When your top 3 paid defense men all play pretty horrible relative their cap hit, is it really a surprise the defense collapsed?

I don't think its really anymore complicated than that... I don't think major changes of whole organization need to happen, just we need more from our D (or to replace them)


You might as well include Letang. He didn't play well either.


I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I actually think Niskanen was the Pens' best defenseman in the playoffs :?


i thought Nisky played great, there where reason why he was a blue chip prospect, he just needed a change of scenary.

I see him as a top 4 guy who will play solid minutes. He is not a top defensemen in the league guy, but that is fine, every team needs a guy that can log good minutes and play in all situations
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby interstorm on Thu May 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Henry Hank wrote:I think it's just that good TEAMS win. Collections of a bunch of good to great players, like what the Pens have going on, are not successful if they aren't playing well as a team. I really think that any other playoff team probably would have beaten the Pens in the first round. That's how unfit the Pens were for playoff hockey. Theoretically, the advantage the Pens should have over other teams is that they have that star power that few teams have, problem is that it's all nullified when their play as a team is complete dirt. They better figure out a way over the summer to present a team next season that plays smart, disciplined, responsible hockey and not just expect to roll over everyone just because they have more talent.

I think a lot of people are completely off base. It's not luck. It's not that the Pens weren't balanced. On paper, the Pens have a great roster, top to bottom. As a team, they failed. Great collection of talent, BAD team.


I usually agree with you on most of the topics you post, HH, but I think we have to agree to disagree here -- i honestly think philly was the only team that could have beaten the penguins in the 1st round. i believe they were in our heads (which was obvious when sid, who is usually so stoic in every interview, was saying how he hated every single person on the team and had such a rage in his eyes). i think the penguins -- all of them - top to bottom - went into that series with such emotion from the history with the franchise and the way the flyers won the few games late in the season. malkin and company wanted to not only beat them but they really wanted to stick it to them. because of that, i think they self destructed and honestly didn't stick to "pittsburgh penguins ice hockey". they did play poorly down the stretch - and the back to back losses to the islanders did foretell of a growing problem with the team. it was due to sloppiness, maybe pushing too hard to keep winning, lack of focus, and bad luck -- all rolled up into one. to say that the penguins were not a good team, though, is a joke. they had one of the best records in the league. this was (and is) a good set of players who do know how to play together as a very good team team. i think it was just a perfect storm of the things i just mentioned, including the frustration the players must have felt as they could see it too, compounded by the uncontrollable emotion aimed at philly and pressure from very high expectations.

the major thing i hope the franchise (not any specific player) takes away from this spring is that it is possible to have too much emotion, to be too "up" for a game. in the future they just need to control themselves and be more business-like. they also need to stick up for each other but not have a group pile on anyone who looks at one of their stars wrong. basically, they just have to be more mature.

as for the formula thing -- st. louis lost, nashville got killed -- what does that say about balanced teams or teams focused on great defense and goal tending? as i said earlier, there is no magic formula and from year to year different types of teams will win. we have the major pieces - that puts us in a better shape than most to challenge for quite some time. we'll be back and i think the team needs to zen-out and focus on themselves...
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby sil on Thu May 10, 2012 7:53 pm

tfrizz wrote:I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I actually think Niskanen was the Pens' best defenseman in the playoffs :?


And sadly, if we stick with the status quo into next year, if the cap stays where it's at and no one is traded, Niskanen may very well be the odd man out....especially if he wants more than $2M.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby saveourpens on Thu May 10, 2012 9:24 pm

sil wrote:
saveourpens wrote: Would trading Malkin for some good old fashioned role players like Talbot make you happy?


Trading Malkin for the Talbot's, Cooke's and Kennedy's of the world...yeah, that's a pretty stupid idea. Trading Malkin for (just as an example) the Oshie's and Pietrangelo's and a pick/prospect, or some combination of young talent that (combined) make $2,000,000 less than him......eh, I'm not leaning to that being such a bad idea.


Thankfully I don't think Shero is leaning towards trading someone that just won the Art-Ross.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby The Snapshot on Thu May 10, 2012 11:14 pm

interstorm wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:I think it's just that good TEAMS win. Collections of a bunch of good to great players, like what the Pens have going on, are not successful if they aren't playing well as a team. I really think that any other playoff team probably would have beaten the Pens in the first round. That's how unfit the Pens were for playoff hockey. Theoretically, the advantage the Pens should have over other teams is that they have that star power that few teams have, problem is that it's all nullified when their play as a team is complete dirt. They better figure out a way over the summer to present a team next season that plays smart, disciplined, responsible hockey and not just expect to roll over everyone just because they have more talent.

I think a lot of people are completely off base. It's not luck. It's not that the Pens weren't balanced. On paper, the Pens have a great roster, top to bottom. As a team, they failed. Great collection of talent, BAD team.


I usually agree with you on most of the topics you post, HH, but I think we have to agree to disagree here -- i honestly think philly was the only team that could have beaten the penguins in the 1st round. i believe they were in our heads (which was obvious when sid, who is usually so stoic in every interview, was saying how he hated every single person on the team and had such a rage in his eyes). i think the penguins -- all of them - top to bottom - went into that series with such emotion from the history with the franchise and the way the flyers won the few games late in the season. malkin and company wanted to not only beat them but they really wanted to stick it to them. because of that, i think they self destructed and honestly didn't stick to "pittsburgh penguins ice hockey". they did play poorly down the stretch - and the back to back losses to the islanders did foretell of a growing problem with the team. it was due to sloppiness, maybe pushing too hard to keep winning, lack of focus, and bad luck -- all rolled up into one. to say that the penguins were not a good team, though, is a joke. they had one of the best records in the league. this was (and is) a good set of players who do know how to play together as a very good team team. i think it was just a perfect storm of the things i just mentioned, including the frustration the players must have felt as they could see it too, compounded by the uncontrollable emotion aimed at philly and pressure from very high expectations.

the major thing i hope the franchise (not any specific player) takes away from this spring is that it is possible to have too much emotion, to be too "up" for a game. in the future they just need to control themselves and be more business-like. they also need to stick up for each other but not have a group pile on anyone who looks at one of their stars wrong. basically, they just have to be more mature.

as for the formula thing -- st. louis lost, nashville got killed -- what does that say about balanced teams or teams focused on great defense and goal tending? as i said earlier, there is no magic formula and from year to year different types of teams will win. we have the major pieces - that puts us in a better shape than most to challenge for quite some time. we'll be back and i think the team needs to zen-out and focus on themselves...


Goaltending. The great equalizer. Even a good team can have a bad patch at the wrong time. The NHL's history is filled with teams that had long runs after barely surviving scares in round 1.

These teams invariably got great goaltending when they needed it most, which was when they were struggling. The Pens have not gotten it in 3 straight playoffs.

I seriously don't understand why people keep looking for some hidden truth in what happened to the Pens, or what is going right for these teams. Do you really think Washington beats Boston if Holtby played like Fleury, or the Rangers survive Ottawa? Make no mistake, these teams were not playing great team games in their opening series. They are still alive because they got key saves, whether it was 5-4 at the time or 1-0.

The Pens lost to a horrific goalie because theirs gave up 15 soft goals in a 6 game series. The defending Stanley Cup champs are at home because Tim Thomas gave up some stinkers too. Rinne was not sharp. Elliott collapsed. Simple.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby sil on Fri May 11, 2012 6:25 am

saveourpens wrote:
sil wrote:
saveourpens wrote: Would trading Malkin for some good old fashioned role players like Talbot make you happy?


Trading Malkin for the Talbot's, Cooke's and Kennedy's of the world...yeah, that's a pretty stupid idea. Trading Malkin for (just as an example) the Oshie's and Pietrangelo's and a pick/prospect, or some combination of young talent that (combined) make $2,000,000 less than him......eh, I'm not leaning to that being such a bad idea.


Thankfully I don't think Shero is leaning towards trading someone that just won the Art-Ross.


Well, we're certainly a team set to continue putting names on that Art Ross banner we have in the CEC...though that may be the only banner based on the pens current string of postseason play.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby shmenguin on Fri May 11, 2012 7:48 am

i think we would have beaten every other team in the east in the first round. i think it would have been like ottawa in '10, where we looked like crap in the process, but i still think we would have won.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby Fast B on Fri May 11, 2012 11:49 am

The Snapshot wrote:
interstorm wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:I think it's just that good TEAMS win. Collections of a bunch of good to great players, like what the Pens have going on, are not successful if they aren't playing well as a team. I really think that any other playoff team probably would have beaten the Pens in the first round. That's how unfit the Pens were for playoff hockey. Theoretically, the advantage the Pens should have over other teams is that they have that star power that few teams have, problem is that it's all nullified when their play as a team is complete dirt. They better figure out a way over the summer to present a team next season that plays smart, disciplined, responsible hockey and not just expect to roll over everyone just because they have more talent.

I think a lot of people are completely off base. It's not luck. It's not that the Pens weren't balanced. On paper, the Pens have a great roster, top to bottom. As a team, they failed. Great collection of talent, BAD team.


I usually agree with you on most of the topics you post, HH, but I think we have to agree to disagree here -- i honestly think philly was the only team that could have beaten the penguins in the 1st round. i believe they were in our heads (which was obvious when sid, who is usually so stoic in every interview, was saying how he hated every single person on the team and had such a rage in his eyes). i think the penguins -- all of them - top to bottom - went into that series with such emotion from the history with the franchise and the way the flyers won the few games late in the season. malkin and company wanted to not only beat them but they really wanted to stick it to them. because of that, i think they self destructed and honestly didn't stick to "pittsburgh penguins ice hockey". they did play poorly down the stretch - and the back to back losses to the islanders did foretell of a growing problem with the team. it was due to sloppiness, maybe pushing too hard to keep winning, lack of focus, and bad luck -- all rolled up into one. to say that the penguins were not a good team, though, is a joke. they had one of the best records in the league. this was (and is) a good set of players who do know how to play together as a very good team team. i think it was just a perfect storm of the things i just mentioned, including the frustration the players must have felt as they could see it too, compounded by the uncontrollable emotion aimed at philly and pressure from very high expectations.

the major thing i hope the franchise (not any specific player) takes away from this spring is that it is possible to have too much emotion, to be too "up" for a game. in the future they just need to control themselves and be more business-like. they also need to stick up for each other but not have a group pile on anyone who looks at one of their stars wrong. basically, they just have to be more mature.

as for the formula thing -- st. louis lost, nashville got killed -- what does that say about balanced teams or teams focused on great defense and goal tending? as i said earlier, there is no magic formula and from year to year different types of teams will win. we have the major pieces - that puts us in a better shape than most to challenge for quite some time. we'll be back and i think the team needs to zen-out and focus on themselves...


Goaltending. The great equalizer. Even a good team can have a bad patch at the wrong time. The NHL's history is filled with teams that had long runs after barely surviving scares in round 1.

These teams invariably got great goaltending when they needed it most, which was when they were struggling. The Pens have not gotten it in 3 straight playoffs.

I seriously don't understand why people keep looking for some hidden truth in what happened to the Pens, or what is going right for these teams. Do you really think Washington beats Boston if Holtby played like Fleury, or the Rangers survive Ottawa? Make no mistake, these teams were not playing great team games in their opening series. They are still alive because they got key saves, whether it was 5-4 at the time or 1-0.

The Pens lost to a horrific goalie because theirs gave up 15 soft goals in a 6 game series. The defending Stanley Cup champs are at home because Tim Thomas gave up some stinkers too. Rinne was not sharp. Elliott collapsed. Simple.


Your ax must be razor sharp by now.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby Pitt87 on Sat May 12, 2012 5:08 pm

jwit wrote:While i think your first premise has merit, in the playoffs, big, defensive minded guys seem to be the current winning formula. But Talbot, please! He benefited from playing on Geno's wing in the cup run. Every game he scored a goal, he should have had three. It took four to five great quality chances for him to score a goal. Go back and watch those games if you do not believe me.

There is no denying his performance in game seven. However, he was a ghost of himself for two straight seasons , and was awful in his contract year. I love all the fanboi fever (not you) saying we needed max. Last time i checked max was in the lineup against Montreal and Tampa in the playoffs and all his glorius guts and leadership made no difference.


Mike Rupp scored a game 7, overtime, Stanley Cup winning goal once. It does not make him a 'supastah'.

You need to have the ability to stop a lot of different things in the playoffs. I don't see how having more better forwards would have made this year any better. Teams went right at Martin/Michalek all year and got the better of them. Between that and Orpik not being the physical force he usually is and Letang taking himself out of one of the games, our top 4 defenders were anything but strong. If anything gets blown up, its the top 2 pairs.
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Re: Winning in the NHL is clear. Good is better than great

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 13, 2012 4:19 pm

Pitt87 wrote:Mike Rupp scored a game 7, overtime, Stanley Cup winning goal once.


nope
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