3 center model / Staal trade

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3 center model / Staal trade

Postby bse on Sat May 19, 2012 9:16 am

Majority of the posts lately have suggested two options;

1) Go with 3 center model or
2) Trade Staal

If 1) is an option, then it means we can afford Staal. Period.

Then, why isn't a third option mentioned?

3) Keep Staal, move him to wing, and go with 2 center model.

Most of the criticism has been directed towards the 3 center model, which has somewhat failed during the past couple of years. Salary cap has been mentioned, but it hasn't exactly been the centerpiece of discussion.

If the Penguins want to ditch the 3 center model, is trading Staal an only option? Actually, reading into Shero's comments, he hasn't exactly said that having Staal as a third C is the way to go. Most of the times, he has only mentioned that he wants to keep all three.

How about moving Staal to wing on even strength, but playing him as a center on the 2nd power play and penalty killing? That could work. Crosby with Staal and Malkin with Neal? Perhaps.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby KG on Sat May 19, 2012 9:42 am

I don't think Shero is going to move Staal. I agree with you. I think he would try Staal at win and develop him into a power forward who could still play center on the PK and take big draws.

If it's about money then I think Shero would/should look to move other not as important parts of the team and use some young players on their rookie contracts to fill that void (Cooke/Kennedy types).

The defense will have the most turnover I bet. The Martin/Michalek situation needs to be resolved as that's $9mill of cap space right there!
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 10:36 am

Staal is set to command, by most estimations, between 6 and 7 million per year. He has established that level of value as a center, not as a winger. Granted he hasn't played there a ton, but I think he never stuck there primarily because DB felt he was by far most useful as a center. It's an open question whether he would be worth that kind of money as a full time winger. When he has played wing the results have been mixed at best.

That's assuming that he would even be amenable to the switch. If you believe Yohe (not saying you should or shouldn't), Staal doesn't want to be a winger.

So could it be an option, perhaps. But IMO, if this was such a slam dunk solution it probably would have happened already.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sat May 19, 2012 11:22 am

Pens15 wrote:Staal is set to command, by most estimations, between 6 and 7 million per year. He has established that level of value as a center, not as a winger. Granted he hasn't played there a ton, but I think he never stuck there primarily because DB felt he was by far most useful as a center. It's an open question whether he would be worth that kind of money as a full time winger. When he has played wing the results have been mixed at best.

That's assuming that he would even be amenable to the switch. If you believe Yohe (not saying you should or shouldn't), Staal doesn't want to be a winger.

So could it be an option, perhaps. But IMO, if this was such a slam dunk solution it probably would have happened already.


What has Staal done to command so much money at center? Play defense? Penalty kill? Score 25 goals? Granted he has gotten much better at face-offs, but that number is laughable. The ONLY reason a 50 point player like Staal would get so much money is if another team overpays for him because of his name and the fact he is a big-body North American "power" forward.

I think he has the potential to be a really good player and has obviously taken longer to come into his own than some other players, which is to be expected. With that being said, there is nothing he has done as a center he couldn't do as a winger. If we are assuming his value comes from his "intangibles" and defensive awareness and not his career high 50 points, he can still do those things as a winger. Look at guys like Hossa or (at times) Zetterberg who are often the best defensive forwards on their lines. I think he would easily have a career year by giving him a top-6 role and moving him up to the first unit of the power play. His ability to adapt to wing is paramount to his future on the team. If he is not willing (or able) to switch, he is gone.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 11:39 am

Staal is not going anywhere.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 12:34 pm

Staal won't sign if they plan on moving him to winger and it would be foolish to sign someone to so much if he's going to be your third line center. Either way, the pens lose.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby bhaw on Sat May 19, 2012 12:52 pm

I'm unsure where 6-7M comes into play. I'd be curious where that's coming from b/c I see it all over the board and it seems ridiculous. Even when compared to his peers, Staal hasn't had that one explosive year to command anywhere near that money. I may be wrong, but that number appears to be a bunch of internet mumbo jumbo.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby shmenguin on Sat May 19, 2012 12:56 pm

bhaw wrote:I'm unsure where 6-7M comes into play. I'd be curious where that's coming from b/c I see it all over the board and it seems ridiculous. Even when compared to his peers, Staal hasn't had that one explosive year to command anywhere near that money. I may be wrong, but that number appears to be a bunch of internet mumbo jumbo.


Bobby holik must be spreading the rumor around. Based on his experience, he probably thinks 7 mill is a fair deal.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:00 pm

bhaw wrote:I'm unsure where 6-7M comes into play. I'd be curious where that's coming from b/c I see it all over the board and it seems ridiculous. Even when compared to his peers, Staal hasn't had that one explosive year to command anywhere near that money. I may be wrong, but that number appears to be a bunch of internet mumbo jumbo.


Molinari
Madden
Dejan
Rossi

Pretty much everyone in the media has said this. But... Neal signed for 5 million and i sure as hell didn't see that coming.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby mikey287 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:05 pm

bhaw wrote:I'm unsure where 6-7M comes into play. I'd be curious where that's coming from b/c I see it all over the board and it seems ridiculous. Even when compared to his peers, Staal hasn't had that one explosive year to command anywhere near that money. I may be wrong, but that number appears to be a bunch of internet mumbo jumbo.


Also mystified by this assumed knowledge.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:07 pm

Yeah, 6-7M seems pretty high to me too. But then you see that a guy like Grabovski just got 5.5M, and you see that with teams really needing center icemen and him getting a chance to be a UFA, it's hardly a stretch.

And honestly, if a team gets Staal to play that 1/2 C role, get 60-70 points while bringing the two way play and intangibles that he does, 6-7M wouldn't be a terrible deal.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 1:09 pm

Bioshock wrote:Staal won't sign if they plan on moving him to winger


Why not?

Bioshock wrote:and it would be foolish to sign someone to so much if he's going to be your third line center.


What really matters is TOI, not some useless designation.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby MRandall25 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:10 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:Staal won't sign if they plan on moving him to winger


Why not?

Bioshock wrote:and it would be foolish to sign someone to so much if he's going to be your third line center.


What really matters is TOI, not some useless designation.


And he had the 6th highest average TOI on the team.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 1:12 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:Staal won't sign if they plan on moving him to winger


Why not?

Bioshock wrote:and it would be foolish to sign someone to so much if he's going to be your third line center.


What really matters is TOI, not some useless designation.


And he had the 6th highest average TOI on the team.


2nd among forwards, just a minute less than Geno.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:15 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:Staal won't sign if they plan on moving him to winger


Why not?

Bioshock wrote:and it would be foolish to sign someone to so much if he's going to be your third line center.


What really matters is TOI, not some useless designation.


And he had the 6th highest average TOI on the team.

Well, that also was taking into account he had a ton of PK time.

If there is doubt as to whether he will play wing or not, Shero needs to ask him straight up if he is willing to make that switch or if he's fine with the third line center roll. From what i have heard, they coaches and the ownership will be getting together here in a week for their individual player evaluations and then about a week after that you will begin to see things take shape.

I just think you lose so much as to what makes Staal great when you move him to wing. His game is so much better when he's on the center of the ice.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:19 pm

Yeah, he gets the PK time, and gets the third line level wingers. It goes towards role on the team and place in the pecking order. So that third line is absolutely not a "meaningless designation.".

Maybe I've just been on the board too much but it seems like some of you guys just haven't been paying attention. All these issues have already been covered over and over in the several threads.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 1:23 pm

Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Gaucho, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby MRandall25 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:33 pm

Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Gaucho, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.


So a story from Dejan suddenly makes it truth?
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:33 pm

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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:35 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Gaucho, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.


So a story from Dejan suddenly makes it truth?


Not at all. But when a guy is paid to cover the team and normally does a great job like him i tend to at least listen. I find it rather interesting
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 1:36 pm

Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Gaucho, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.


It bothers me, too.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 1:36 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Gaucho, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.


So a story from Dejan suddenly makes it truth?


It also just makes a ton of sense. Bioshock is doing some great work in the otjer Staal thread, I reccommend checking it out. Staal is rapidly outgrowing his role here and it just makes way too much sense for Staal to pursue his ambitions elsewhere. Some of you just don't want to see it.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 1:44 pm

Listen, i want him to stay just as much as anyone. I just don't see how a coaching staff that couldn't figure out how to get Crosby on the ice for the first PP unit will suddenly figure out how to utilize Staal on the PP if that is what he truly wants. Then again, if all he wants is a tweak by the coaching staff in their gameplan, then they better accommodate a player such as him.

What i see happening is he leaves in the end. Either via trade this summer, sign and trade before UFA begins after next season or just as a pure UFA. And what is sad here is it isn't about money this time around. The cap is probably going to go to 69 to 70 million this year, and that's if everything remains the same. If the NHLPA headed by Donald Fehr has their way, it could be even higher.

Brave new world.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby pcm on Sat May 19, 2012 1:56 pm

A few things to mull over:

1. People point to Philly as an example of trading stars for a cache of young assets. But it sure looks to me like LAK has gotten the better results so far. Of course its way early, but I bet LA wins more cups over the next 10 years than PHI.

2. Is Jordan Staal better than Mike Richards? People saying Staal should get 6-7 million must be the same people saying Neal would get that much. (Mike Richards got paid 5.75 at the height of his leadership abilities.)

3. Moving Staal into the top 6 never got a fair chance. That was the plan to start 2010-2011. Then everyone got injured. Regardless, he plays 20+ minutes per game. For him to sign here though, he need to be promised a bigger role on the PP. That means splitting Malkin and Sid into 2 units, which makes too much sense anyways...

4. Playing Staal with Malkin makes the most sense, despite the success of Malkin's line last year. Reunite Kuntiz (who seemed superfluous on that line, despite its success) with Sid and acquire a young winger to challenge Dupuis & Kennedy for playing 2nd line RW. Staal can take the defensive draws on the top line and allow Malkin to roam successfully. Staal-Malkin-Neal would be the most dangerous line in the NHL.
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