3 center model / Staal trade

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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 2:02 pm

pcm wrote:A few things to mull over:

1. People point to Philly as an example of trading stars for a cache of young assets. But it sure looks to me like LAK has gotten the better results so far. Of course its way early, but I bet LA wins more cups over the next 10 years than PHI.

2. Is Jordan Staal better than Mike Richards? People saying Staal should get 6-7 million must be the same people saying Neal would get that much. (Mike Richards got paid 5.75 at the height of his leadership abilities.)

3. Moving Staal into the top 6 never got a fair chance. That was the plan to start 2010-2011. Then everyone got injured. Regardless, he plays 20+ minutes per game. For him to sign here though, he need to be promised a bigger role on the PP. That means splitting Malkin and Sid into 2 units, which makes too much sense anyways...

4. Playing Staal with Malkin makes the most sense, despite the success of Malkin's line last year. Reunite Kuntiz (who seemed superfluous on that line, despite its success) with Sid and acquire a young winger to challenge Dupuis & Kennedy for playing 2nd line RW. Staal can take the defensive draws on the top line and allow Malkin to roam successfully. Staal-Malkin-Neal would be the most dangerous line in the NHL.


I could almost be convinced of your Staal to top 6 idea, despite persistent quotes from local media types. However, on the salary issue your comparison to Richards is quite flawed. He signed for really long term, and it was how many years ago. Neal was an RFA, reducing his leverage. For a closer comparison, look at Grabovski. 5.5 per year. As a UFA Staal can really maximize his options and get at least 6, easily.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 19, 2012 2:11 pm

pcm wrote:A few things to mull over:

1. People point to Philly as an example of trading stars for a cache of young assets. But it sure looks to me like LAK has gotten the better results so far. Of course its way early, but I bet LA wins more cups over the next 10 years than PHI.

2. Is Jordan Staal better than Mike Richards? People saying Staal should get 6-7 million must be the same people saying Neal would get that much. (Mike Richards got paid 5.75 at the height of his leadership abilities.)

3. Moving Staal into the top 6 never got a fair chance. That was the plan to start 2010-2011. Then everyone got injured. Regardless, he plays 20+ minutes per game. For him to sign here though, he need to be promised a bigger role on the PP. That means splitting Malkin and Sid into 2 units, which makes too much sense anyways...

4. Playing Staal with Malkin makes the most sense, despite the success of Malkin's line last year. Reunite Kuntiz (who seemed superfluous on that line, despite its success) with Sid and acquire a young winger to challenge Dupuis & Kennedy for playing 2nd line RW. Staal can take the defensive draws on the top line and allow Malkin to roam successfully. Staal-Malkin-Neal would be the most dangerous line in the NHL.


1. Yeah, seems to me that in the new NHL playoffs where obstruction is now king again, you need a very rock solid defense with just enough scoring to capitalize on the mistakes of your opponents. Kings this year and Montreal a few years ago remind me of this.

2. I can see where you are coming from on this. It's an interesting dynamic and there are two things i think about when i look at this. The Philly factor and inflation. When Richards signed that deal the cap was way lower and with inflation now, you might say that a 6 million dollar contract today might have the same value of a 4.5 or a 5 million dollar contract 4 years ago. Also, i think Philly overpaid anyways because Mike Richards is a locker room cancer and one of the worst captains i have ever witnessed.

3. Yeah, and when has this coaching staff shown the ability to do the logical thing? They couldn't even utilize the best player in the world on the #1 PP unit properly, let alone having Staal out there as a net front presence or in another role on the PP. I can see them promising him this but never following through.

4. See, i love the idea of Malkin, Neal and Staal together. It would be a dominate line because you would have a forechecker in Staal, a puck carrier in Geno and a sniper in Neal. Great combination and the pure talent on that line would override the fact that Staal is at his best in the center of the ice. But... Staal would want to do this, and we just don't know if that is the case.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby pens_CT on Sat May 19, 2012 2:44 pm

Bioshock wrote:
bhaw wrote:I'm unsure where 6-7M comes into play. I'd be curious where that's coming from b/c I see it all over the board and it seems ridiculous. Even when compared to his peers, Staal hasn't had that one explosive year to command anywhere near that money. I may be wrong, but that number appears to be a bunch of internet mumbo jumbo.


Molinari
Madden
Dejan
Rossi

Pretty much everyone in the media has said this. But... Neal signed for 5 million and i sure as hell didn't see that coming.

People are guessing what he could get on the open market as a UFA and assume that is what he is going to ask for. Staal has the leverage in any new contract, if he wants to use it. IMO Shero isn't going over 6 mil/yr, but if the contract talks go into next season, and Staal starts to have a Neal type season then the price will go up quickly.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Sarcastic on Sat May 19, 2012 2:46 pm

Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Jordan doesn't strike me as a guy who whines about the quality of his wingers. That said, he should see more PP time.


Sarcastic, did you listen to the Dejan Interview yesterday on Madden's show? He said the biggest thing that bothers Jordan is lack of PP time. I will post the interview here in a second.


I was impressed with Staal's offensive output this year. He got 25/25 in 62 games. He would have had 60-65 points over a full season.

That's not including many points, or any (?), from the PP. So I completely understand why it would irk him to no end that he doesn't play with the other top dogs on the PP. I would bring that up to Bylsma/Shero, no doubt. I would insist on it during negotiations.

If he is to become a superstar, he's going to have to join the PP and I don't mean on the second unit with the checkers. They have to mix him in with unit #1. Stick him on the net or the side somewhere and, I think, he just may add 10-20 points to his total. I think the potential is there.

People suggest trading for Penner, but we have Staal right here. I wish he got a bit meaner and try on wing again, but that's not for me to decide. However, his lack of PP time is inexcusable.

Now, $7 million is crazy. Neal is a ppg player and he's getting 5. Neal probably would have gotten 5.5 or 6 on the market, but he likes it here and that's also worth something.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Pens15 on Sat May 19, 2012 2:52 pm

Even though I have been a huge DB critic, I have to stick up for him on the whole Sid PP thing.

Pre- Sid's return, the Pens PP with Malkin half-wall and Letang and Sullivan on the point was top 5 in the league. It was the best PP they'd had in years. Upon Sid's return, it reverted back to where it had been in previous years; frustrating and underachieving. They tried to make it work with Sid for weeks, and then finally, after going down 0-2, DB decided to go back to what worked so well before...and got roundly bashed for it?!

Funniest part is, the PP sans Sid actually scored more than it did with him. It also gave up a few, but even still. That line of criticism was way unfair.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Kaizer on Sat May 19, 2012 6:49 pm

keep staal at center, put malkin on his wing
put neal on the other wing
trade martin for tavares
get martin back for TK
get TK back for cooke
get cooke back for bennett
punch out dipietro
move letang to Sid's wing
replace letang with Morrow
trade old honda civic for a ridgeline
rebuild the igloo, destroy consol
send all players to boot camp
sign gary roberts
assistant coach michel therrien
make pluto a planet again
make more censor words for chat
allow topless beergirls juju pics
????
Stanley Cup
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun May 20, 2012 5:22 am

The Penguins will HAVE to pay Staal $5.5 to $6M a year to keep him. While some may think $7M is crazy to pay him, he will find a team that will pay him that money. Is it worth it to the Penguins? No. $7M measured against the money they are spending already and will have to spend to keep Malkin and Sid just doesn't make sense. However, other teams have the space to grab him and build around him either as their #1 center or having the money to have a solid 1-2 punch on the top two lines.

Does it make sense to pay Staal $5.5 to $6M a year? Honestly, I don't know. Staal is one of my favorite players and I want to see him remain a penguin, but it all depends on how the Pens plan to factor him. Moving Staal to the top six while spending that kind of money on him makes it difficult to really fill out the bottom six. You need depth to win cups. While Cooke and Kennedy are great options to have on the third line, there's not enough elsewhere to make a serious bottom six. I really like Vitale, but they need more offensive punch at 3rd line center if Staal were to move up.

If the Pens were to pay him $6M, you can easily get a very solid winger for $3M to play on the top six and find a very solid 3rd line center for $3M. But getting two positions like that doesn't necessarily mean you retain the intangibles that Staal brings in other aspects of the game.

My personal opinion is that the Penguins will not be able to keep Staal. If the CBA really pushes the cap back down, the Penguins can't invest $20M+ on three players if they want to remain competitive.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby bhaw on Sun May 20, 2012 11:25 am

There are only 16 players slated to make $7m (cap hit) or more next year. All of them have had significantly more success than Staal leading into their contracts. I think people throw out numbers without realizing what they mean.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 11:28 am

bhaw wrote:There are only 16 players slated to make $7m (cap hit) or more next year. All of them have had significantly more success than Staal leading into their contracts. I think people throw out numbers without realizing what they mean.


i imagine that of those 16, none of them would get definitively outclassed by tyler freakin' kennedy on a top unit power play over a 40 game stretch.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby bhaw on Sun May 20, 2012 11:38 am

shmenguin wrote:
bhaw wrote:There are only 16 players slated to make $7m (cap hit) or more next year. All of them have had significantly more success than Staal leading into their contracts. I think people throw out numbers without realizing what they mean.


i imagine that of those 16, none of them would get definitively outclassed by tyler freakin' kennedy on a top unit power play over a 40 game stretch.


Scott Gomez might?
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 11:59 am

bhaw wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
bhaw wrote:There are only 16 players slated to make $7m (cap hit) or more next year. All of them have had significantly more success than Staal leading into their contracts. I think people throw out numbers without realizing what they mean.


i imagine that of those 16, none of them would get definitively outclassed by tyler freakin' kennedy on a top unit power play over a 40 game stretch.


Scott Gomez might?


The exception that proves the rule
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Gaucho on Sun May 20, 2012 12:21 pm

Who is Scott Gomez?
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun May 20, 2012 5:39 pm

bhaw wrote:There are only 16 players slated to make $7m (cap hit) or more next year. All of them have had significantly more success than Staal leading into their contracts. I think people throw out numbers without realizing what they mean.


I agree, but in this case it's pretty accurate to assume he could get $7M. Centerman like Staal aren't a dime a dozen in this league. There are plenty of teams on the bubble or teams that are rebuilding and are already on the verge of being a playoff team that can spend. A guy like Staal could be the piece to their puzzle. Take a team like Winnipeg. Getting Jordan Staal would probably make them a playoff lock. Maybe not a high seed, but a playoff lock none-the-less. There are quite a few times like Winnipeg that would make a drastic jump getting him. Teams like that will also have to pay a premium because they aren't necessarily as attractive to UFAs. If Staal were to hit the open market and say Detroit, Chicago, Winnipeg and Florida were all in on Staal, obviously Winnipeg and Florida will have to offer more money than DET or CHI.

You have to also take into consideration that there's always teams that will overpay. It happens at least once or twice every off-season, so to think that someone would throw that kind of money at him isn't that crazy.

The only thing that I think people(including the media) may have not taken into consideration is the possible cap drop with the new CBA. In this situation, teams will be hesitant to spend unless you are on elite player. While Staal may be able to garner $7M in this market, in a CBA with a $30M range cap, that quickly drops Staal's value two to three million.

If Staal was smart, he'd sign the same contract as Neal if offered. He's wiser to lock himself up a few million less to ensure his contract if the new CBA lowers considerably. That being said, I still don't think it's realistic that Staal remains a penguin once his contract is up. Again, Let's assume Malkin and Sid re-sign for similar money and together are appx a $16M cap hit...locking Staal up at even $4M puts the pens investing somewhere around 2/3 of their cap space on three players if the cap were to drop back down. They simply can't do that if they want to remain competitive and hold on to Fleury and Letang as well, let alone build a solid team around them.

I guess the really big question is what is the cap projected to start at if the new CBA gets lowered. Anyone know?
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby mikey287 on Sun May 20, 2012 5:56 pm

I guess by CBA getting lowered, you mean the Upper Limit. In which case, I wouldn't guess that the Upper Limit would be lowered by any substantial margin. The players wouldn't be too interested in that and the owners already got the whole "cost certainty" thing they were after. I could see the Lower Limit being lowered which would lower the average salary slightly, but that wouldn't really effect a player like Jordan Staal.

Obviously, we'll see what happens. There's nothing that the salary cap could do that would allow Staal's market value to fluctuate $3 million...nor would I think he's looking at another $4 million per year contract, I think that's erroneous on both counts.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun May 20, 2012 5:59 pm

mikey287 wrote:I guess by CBA getting lowered, you mean the Upper Limit. In which case, I wouldn't guess that the Upper Limit would be lowered by any substantial margin. The players wouldn't be too interested in that and the owners already got the whole "cost certainty" thing they were after. I could see the Lower Limit being lowered which would lower the average salary slightly, but that wouldn't really effect a player like Jordan Staal.

Obviously, we'll see what happens. There's nothing that the salary cap could do that would allow Staal's market value to fluctuate $3 million...nor would I think he's looking at another $4 million per year contract, I think that's erroneous on both counts.


I think I'm still slightly confused on how some of this all works. I'm not that savvy in this area other than being able to add things up lol. When you say the lower limit, you mean the minimum that teams have to spend?

EDIT: Wouldn't it have to be the upper limit being lowered if they're proposing an amnesty clause that allows you do dump one crazy contract?
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby mikey287 on Sun May 20, 2012 6:09 pm

Not a problem. The lower limit refers to the "cap floor", so yes. The Upper Limit will not likely go down artificially as the players' wouldn't want that because it hurts their earning power.

The amnesty clause - which isn't a lock to be in this CBA, and I don't believe it will be as of right now - is largely just a armchair GM wet dream to dump a player they don't like. Small market teams will campaign against it, the players won't love it either as it costs some of their union members a job. "Amnesty clause" - meaning being able to buyout a contract without cap penalty, wouldn't have anything to do with the Upper Limit.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby DelPen on Mon May 21, 2012 8:50 am

Moving Staal to wing solves a lot of problems this team has in scoring. Malkin, Crosby, Neal, Staal, Kunitz and Dupuis can log most of the minutes.

Cooke, Vitale and Tangradi are a good start to round out the bottom 6. Adams is under contract so there's 4. Kennedy and Jeffrey are too but I don't want either in those roles let alone one.

But unless the cap falls there is no need to move Staal.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby no name on Mon May 21, 2012 11:21 am

If you can trade Staal and Martin get a new 3rd line center (who also is good on the PK) a legit winger for Sid (physical and can score) and a physical defencman with a strong defensive presence, then you do it reguardless if you can resign him.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby no name on Mon May 21, 2012 12:14 pm

Gaucho wrote:Who is Scott Gomez?


Gomez Admas was the dad on the Adams family, maybe they are related?? Scott Gomez... its not ringing a bell, or lighting a goal lamp if you catch my drift.
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Re: 3 center model / Staal trade

Postby Jasmine on Mon May 21, 2012 2:28 pm

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