Watching NYR/NJD and..

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Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Sat May 19, 2012 3:22 pm

Watching the NYR/NJD game today and there's a few things I'm noticing:

1. Paul Martin - He would get absolutely destroyed and embarrassed. Every puck chip along the borders, you have a split second to react before they finish the check. Martin would get hit every time he touches the puck. He's slow with his decision making and was terrible getting the puck out of the zone. He would be a turn over machine. He wouldn't be able to move anyone away from Fleury in the crease. I honestly don't know what Shero saw in this guy. He's straight up Soff. He needs to be gone and it makes us better even if we get NOTHING in return. He possibility of Bortuzzo or Strait, 2 guys that were drafted, worked their way through the system might be gone because of his scrub Martin sickens me.

2. Dan Bylsma - Watching Tortorella, while I'm not supporting him at all, actually looks like he's coaching. He's watching every little thing and making adjustments. He's getting on guys INSTANTLY when they make a mistake. Not just letting it go, thinking all the veterans are professionals and can handle. They need reminded and Tors doesn't hesitate. He lets his young guys play UNTIL they falter. Krieder would have never been this great for Pittsburgh as a rookie in the playoffs because he never would have gotten the chance under DB. Bylsma just standing behind the bench with his arms crossed. Doesn't call a timeout until the score is 5-7 with what 90 seconds left? Unreal Joke.

3. Hooking, Holding, Obstruction, Embellishment, etc - This isn't even the same game (NHL) from even 2008. The Red Wings always had obstruction however I can't believe how much Hooking/Holding isn't being called. The off season meetings for the GMs will be interesting. Ray Shero came in here and wanted a Big Body NA team. He won a cup with Bylsma and since then ditched that model and went with more of puck moving, smaller teams. The Penguins just seem so much smaller and softer compared to NYD/NJD/LAK... The Current Penguins system/team that is build isn't designed to win the way the Refs are reffing the game these playoffs. Regular season defense is different than Playoff Defense. Hal Gill was nothing by a pylon in the regular season, sucked big time at times. However in the playoffs he was a brick wall that smacked guys like Holmstrom around. We haven't had that since 2009 cup.

-You don't lose 3 playoff series to lower seeds in a row then trade a 23 year old centerpiece of your team (Staal) when he lead your team in playoff goals. You get rid of the first time NHL Head coach who walked into a complete team and let them loose to win the cup before other teams realized his "one trick pony get to our game style". Watching some of these other coaches closely in tough games and its so easy to realize Bylsma's experience is so low and he has no idea what to do in many situations.

-Martin is just bad and Shero should feel Bad for signing him.

-Going into next season I'm not expecting anything past the 2nd round until these 2 are gone. Shero won't do anything big until the CBA is confirmed/GM meetings set the rules again on how to build a team. (Which is smart) The reason this team has been failing is because they've been building a 2005-2008 style team where Hooking actually gets called. The Refs having been Reffing as its pre-lockout.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby czwalga on Sat May 19, 2012 3:38 pm

Staal wouldnt lead the pens in playoff goals if he was in the role of Malkin and Crosby. He was supposed to be a shutdown center in which he's regressed in that area this year.

I'd be ok with trading him or not trading him.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Sat May 19, 2012 3:41 pm

czwalga wrote:Staal wouldnt lead the pens in playoff goals if he was in the role of Malkin and Crosby. He was supposed to be a shutdown center in which he's regressed in that area this year.

I'd be ok with trading him or not trading him.


He had a bad playoffs defensively. Others were worse. Crosby was terrible on the backcheck, trade him? Please. There's at least 5 more problems on this team before needing to move Staal.

'i'm not turning this into another Staal thread though, there's already 7 of those.

Fact of the matter is Bylsma & Martin need to go.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby CERV96 on Sat May 19, 2012 3:56 pm

The solution to all of our problems.

new alternate jerseys

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Jopaz on Sat May 19, 2012 5:24 pm

If you are correct that the team is soft and too small, no change of a system or coach can fix that. The roster has to be revamped. The Rangers wingers are huge, and we have Kunitz, Dupuis, Kennedy, etc. I agree that the playoffs are a different style of play, and the current Pens team is not built for that. They will be successful during the regular season, win games 8 to 5, and produce scoring champions. That does not translate into Stanley Cups.

Reminds me of the Indy Colts in the NFL. Great regular season team, record breaking stats, perfect for Fantasy Football. But only 1 Super Bowl win during Peyton Manning's 15 year career. This also might be Crosby and Malkin's stat line without some better supporting players.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Desiato on Sat May 19, 2012 5:48 pm

I think the Pens would have matched well against the Rangers and Devils. Just as the Flyers are nowhere near as good as they looked against the Pens, the Pens are nowhere near as bad as they looked against the Flyers. Neither team can counterattack with speed like the Flyers.

But the Pens probably would have been eaten alive by the Kings.

If Martin survives the end of Bylsma's tenure, I think we'll see a more positive view of him here. I believe it's the shortcomings in the Penguins coaching that contributes to much of negativity expressed about him. Like many players on the Pens, I think he's been taken out of his comfort zone and isn't being utilized well.

Consider how washed up players like Coffey and Larry Murphy looked before being coached by Bowman on the Wings. Martin still demonstrates great fundamental skills.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Sarcastic on Sat May 19, 2012 6:05 pm

Martin would not make Tortorella's team. He has higher salary than any of their defesnemen, but he would not make their team. If anything, maybe as an occasional 6th or 7th with minimal ice time, but even that is doubtful because he has no grit and doesn't do anything offensive like a PP specialist. So what exactly would he do in their system?
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Sarcastic on Sat May 19, 2012 6:07 pm

Desiato wrote:Martin still demonstrates great fundamental skills.


Not offensively. And he can't play physical defense. So, yeah, the first pass and an occasional poke check.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat May 19, 2012 6:35 pm

1. I think the clutching is back but do not think its quite as bad as people think. there is so much computer tracking and film game plans are insane. Just like in the NFL defenses adjust to what teams are doing after rule changes for the other side. For example, the zone blitz ate up teams when passing became fancy, then the quarter secondary coverage, now some teams just load on pass rushers and try to get a shutdown CB.

In the NHL to adjust back the teams are playing a 5 person in the box collapsing defense that blocks shots and keeps teams to the outside. Is the C & B back? Yes, but its not a choke hold like 1995, there are other reasons too.

2. The thing is we cant say anything about the clutching and grabbing in regards to the Pens because we go embarrased in a wide open series.

3. Coaching is more important now than 3 years ago even. Look at the Philly series. Our historically awful PK was in part because their coach realized that Staal and Orpik are slow laterally. The Penguins never adjusted with either different players or adjusting scheme to be more aggressive towards their skill (like the Devils did). I think the NJ/NYR series you are seeing some pretty good coaching. Despite some of the scores its not all snooze fest, the Devils has tons of chances today. Good chances too.

4. Yes, I agree with a poster above who said about our size/skill. Our 2nd and 3rd line guys just are not up to par and our 4th line was terrible. So I think there are some needs for an overhaul. I would give Tangradi and Jeffreys a shot. We need more of everything up front. These teams left in the series are at least average at every single roster spot. We were not. Not even close.

5. Yeah, a goalie playing good doesnt hurt either. Or great.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Mtl-PenFan on Sat May 19, 2012 6:43 pm

It took the final sentence of the 8th post to mention how Henrik is almost immeasurably better than Fleury?

I know, I know, coaching and defense. Then I see Kovalchuk stopped on TWO breakaways...
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 19, 2012 7:13 pm

I can't wait to have an epiphany myself and create my own thread.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sat May 19, 2012 7:58 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Desiato wrote:Martin still demonstrates great fundamental skills.


Not offensively. And he can't play physical defense. So, yeah, the first pass and an occasional poke check.


He's a good, not great, puck mover, good first pass, very good positonally, very good with his stick, fairs well in a passive, zone defense system, oddly very good puck-carrier through the defensive and neutral zones, anticipates well, sees the game best as the last guy back and the last guy up the ice. He really is a good defenseman, just not here.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby MRandall25 on Sat May 19, 2012 8:35 pm

Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby JoseCuervo on Sat May 19, 2012 10:34 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


Do you guys remember how good Michalek was on the Coyotes? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $4 mil and the reason he made the Czech Olympic team.

Spoiler:
Oh, wait... I see a trend (you could also do the same for orpik)
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby joopen on Sun May 20, 2012 7:44 am

JoseCuervo wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


Do you guys remember how good Michalek was on the Coyotes? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $4 mil and the reason he made the Czech Olympic team.

Spoiler:
Oh, wait... I see a trend (you could also do the same for orpik)

Well there is a trend in your post here. Every one of those 3 defenders were better 2 years ago then they are now. Does that not seem odd to you? Maybe there is a common denominator that could be looked for as to why all 3 have regressed. Boy I wonder if we can figure out what it is?
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 9:52 am

MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils?


nope
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Gaucho on Sun May 20, 2012 10:08 am

Tanger, Engelland and Niskanen have all improved over that same span. Not saying you people are wrong, but merely pointing the finger at Bylsma/Reirden/the system does not answer any questions.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun May 20, 2012 10:32 am

shmenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils?


nope


Martin was actually really good on the Devils. Very good positionally and a very solid puck mover. All of our defense is worse than 2 years ago except Matt N.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 10:45 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils?


nope


Martin was actually really good on the Devils. Very good positionally and a very solid puck mover. All of our defense is worse than 2 years ago except Matt N.


Martin never stood out when he was on the devils. That's kind of a compliment I guess. But you should never say that about your highest paid defenseman.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:45 am

shmenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils?


nope


Doesn't mean it didn't happen...
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby ulf on Sun May 20, 2012 10:49 am

If Paul Martin plays a good game, and no one is in attendance to see it (NJ), did he really play a good game? The world may never know.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 11:26 am

people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.

on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby JoseCuervo on Sun May 20, 2012 1:29 pm

shmenguin wrote:people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.

on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.


Only people who understand hockey know how good martin is?

Yea, sounds about right.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun May 20, 2012 2:08 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:
shmenguin wrote:people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.

on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.


Only people who understand hockey know how good martin is?

Yea, sounds about right.


I think that is right when he played for the Devils. He was a pretty good player there, didnt rack up top 10 points or put on big hits but he was really good.

Giving him a $5 million contract and his play here (or in our system) is a different story.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby owtahear on Sun May 20, 2012 2:46 pm

shmenguin wrote:people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.

on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.



I have nothing against Martin. He was a really good defenseman and at the time, looked like a great signing by Shero. But with the emergence of Niskanen, Lovejoy and Engelland, and Depres, Strait, Morrow and Harrington waiting on an opening, if we could trade Martin to say Minnesota (his home) for a 4th rd choice I would do it in a heartbeat to clear cap space and clear room for some of the up and coming d-men.
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