Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Lesky on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Rylan wrote:Martin will have a good season. Just stop expecting 50+ points from him. He wasn't the only defenseman to have a bad season. Just saying.


Why should we expect this? Martin is not getting younger.....
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:24 pm

Because he is a good player. Not some bum found on the streets.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Pens4Life on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:27 pm

KG wrote:I'd move Despres in a package for a #1 type d man. Deal from strength type of strategy.

I don't think Suter is going to sign here and the Pens need a top pairing D man with some size. IMO.

why move despres???
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Pens4Life on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:29 pm

Trade Martin, re-sign Nisky,sign Suter,Despres up for good,sign one more psyhical D for backup..

Suter - Letang
Orpik - Despres
Niskanen - Engelland
x - Strait
Last edited by Pens4Life on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:30 pm

If Depres fetches you a #1 defenseman then its worth it.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby burghsportsguys on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:32 pm

Rylan wrote:Martin will have a good season. Just stop expecting 50+ points from him. He wasn't the only defenseman to have a bad season. Just saying.

50+ points? If you think the issues surrounding Martin have anything to do with offensive production, you are totally missing the point.

Agree with the above post, if there is ANY interest in Martin (and he's willing to waive his NTC), he has to be dealt for anything. A 2018 7th round pick is a fair return. This is the part of the year where you have to assess value per dollar. The Penguins have to build a team under the cap. There is an opportunity cost associated with tying up $5MM in Martin. Even if he has a "good season" (however that may be defined), the question is does he deliver $5MM of value?

If you can deal #4 and #7, and end up with Suter/Weber + #47 + $1-2MM in cap space, you have dramatically improved the team. When you have a fixed pool of money to spent, you have to maximize the value of the spend.

If Martin puts up 60 points and plays defense like he did to close the year/playoffs, he doesn't provide value for the spend.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:37 pm

Martin is gone. Mark it down. He will be moved.

If the Penguins don't or think they can't grab Parise, they're going to trade Martin to Anaheim for Bobby Ryan. As much as I'd love to have Parise here, I think it's a smarter move for the Penguins to trade Martin for Ryan, then try to sign Ryan Suter.

Pros to Bobby Ryan:
He's a right wing
He's a BEAST
He's eclipsed 30+ goals the past four years
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:42 pm

Ya know it's funny. I go onto other team's boards and look around a lot, chat about various things here and again, provide outside perspective, whatever...do you know how many teams have fans right now that are penciling in Ryan Suter and/or Zach Parise into their lineups right now? We're getting awfully presumptious here, no?

And here's what'll happen, the couple of clowns that peer from the woodwork now and again that just plain don't get "it" (you should know who you are) will pop out after we keep Martin and don't get Suter or Parise and start the "fire Shero" bandwagon...if Shero doesn't have a press conference scheduled for 12:05 pm eastern to present Pens jerseys to Zach and Ryan, I bet this board will collectively give birth to a full-grown platypus right then and there...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:02 pm

Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby DelPen on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:07 pm

I think you can still move Martin now if you are willing to roll the dice on Morrow if you can't get anyone in free agency. Keep in mind we have had our defense barely full strength for most of the last two years anyways and the system covered for them. When we had a fully healthy squad that's when things fell apart.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:08 pm

mikey287 wrote:Ya know it's funny. I go onto other team's boards and look around a lot, chat about various things here and again, provide outside perspective, whatever...do you know how many teams have fans right now that are penciling in Ryan Suter and/or Zach Parise into their lineups right now? We're getting awfully presumptious here, no?

And here's what'll happen, the couple of clowns that peer from the woodwork now and again that just plain don't get "it" (you should know who you are) will pop out after we keep Martin and don't get Suter or Parise and start the "fire Shero" bandwagon...if Shero doesn't have a press conference scheduled for 12:05 pm eastern to present Pens jerseys to Zach and Ryan, I bet this board will collectively give birth to a full-grown platypus right then and there...


Well that's a silly assessment, at least parts of it.

Of course plenty of teams are penciling in those guys into their line-ups. Let's be clear about certain things though, Suter and Parise know they'll get a payday no matter where they go. For guys like that, they have their pick and I think it's a safe assumption that they want to go to a team that gives them the best shot at winning NOW. Until yesterday, the Penguins were not in their sight and vice versa. We have this weird sort of self-hatred as Pens fans because some are tired of the "all players want to come here because of Sid and Geno," so we like downplay the likelihood of guys like that coming here. Separating ourselves for a second as Pens fans, it's silly to think that the Penguins would not be a top destination of any high profile player if they can get the money they want. The Penguins are probably in the top three destinations for any player right now.

If Parise knows he can get the money he wants from any team, why would he choose Minnesota or Detroit over the Penguins? Think about it logically. Despite a bad post-season, the Penguins are still amongst the favorites to get to the cup. They have some of the best players in the world. So, Penguins fans who are penciling either Parise or Suter in on the roster are probably more accurate than others. Also, if Shero is unable to sign them, that doesn't mean he didn't do his job, it just means that those players wanted to go somewhere else more.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby burghsportsguys on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Rylan wrote:Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.

I'd rather roll with Despres and Strait/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Lovejoy + $9MM in cap space (to spend however, guarantees be damned) than Martin and Michalek. That's my personal opinion. I simply do not see the significant drop from Martin to one of those young guys. Right now, in my mind, Martin is a 3rd pair guy behind Letang, Niskanen, Orpik, and Despres. I'll take the $5MM in hand in the free agent market and roll the dice.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby pfim on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:13 pm

mikey287 wrote:
And here's what'll happen, the couple of clowns that peer from the woodwork now and again that just plain don't get "it" (you should know who you are) will pop out after we keep Martin and don't get Suter or Parise and start the "fire Shero" bandwagon...if Shero doesn't have a press conference scheduled for 12:05 pm eastern to present Pens jerseys to Zach and Ryan, I bet this board will collectively give birth to a full-grown platypus right then and there...


Given what was done yesterday, if he doesn't grab one of those two I think those people would be fully justified. Cap space is an asset, but cap space can't play hockey.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:17 pm

You also think about it in terms of just hockey and money. Which might explain why we get Guerin's, Fedotenko's, Satan's etc. and I don't want to downplay that I believe Pittsburgh is a top-notch place to play, great players, new arena, not an outpost city of any sort, limited travel schedule, etc.

But at the same time, we didn't get Jagr, Hossa, Kariya, etc.

There can be more to it than that...I don't want "realistic" to be confused with "self-hating" though...the fact of the matter, we're going after two players that have 30 teams a piece to go to...I just don't want anyone to get ahead of themselves here...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby columbia on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:26 pm

Just about every GM is claiming that they will be active/bold/aggressive/revamping.
We'll see who the pretenders are.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:42 pm

burghsportsguys wrote:
Rylan wrote:Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.

I'd rather roll with Despres and Strait/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Lovejoy + $9MM in cap space (to spend however, guarantees be damned) than Martin and Michalek. That's my personal opinion. I simply do not see the significant drop from Martin to one of those young guys. Right now, in my mind, Martin is a 3rd pair guy behind Letang, Niskanen, Orpik, and Despres. I'll take the $5MM in hand in the free agent market and roll the dice.


You can't gamble like that. The d-corps is terrible if you have Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, or Lovejoy playing any significant minutes. Martin is a top 4 defenseman. You are over valuing a currently unproven commodity in Despres. You keep Martin until you have proven a valuable replacement. Being liquid and having money to spend is worthless if you have nothing to spend it on. Money only holds value when it is spent.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby columbia on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:45 pm

Shero wouldn't have dumped ZM, if he were not planning on getting another D next week.
He sure as heck won't dump Martin - after that - without having two replacements lined up.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby scpensfan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:45 pm

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but ... holy crap, Pascal Dupuis had more points than Bobby Ryan last year.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby KG on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:46 pm

This defense need a banger back there in the worst way.

Martin needs to be moved for a better more physical d man, or move him for the cap space to bring in someone like that.

I also don't expect any young d man to be any higher then 5th or 6th on the depth chart this year.

Shero will go with a veteran top 4. This is still a win now team...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Duper had an extremely good season last year. He earned top-6 minutes with his play. Hopefully he keeps it up.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby DocEmrick on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:47 pm

:scared:
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby steelhammer on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:48 pm

Rylan wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:
Rylan wrote:Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.

I'd rather roll with Despres and Strait/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Lovejoy + $9MM in cap space (to spend however, guarantees be damned) than Martin and Michalek. That's my personal opinion. I simply do not see the significant drop from Martin to one of those young guys. Right now, in my mind, Martin is a 3rd pair guy behind Letang, Niskanen, Orpik, and Despres. I'll take the $5MM in hand in the free agent market and roll the dice.


You can't gamble like that. The d-corps is terrible if you have Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, or Lovejoy playing any significant minutes. Martin is a top 4 defenseman. You are over valuing a currently unproven commodity in Despres. You keep Martin until you have proven a valuable replacement. Being liquid and having money to spend is worthless if you have nothing to spend it on. Money only holds value when it is spent.


Engelland proved this season that he can take a top-4 role and not look out of place. He's continually getting better so I don't think it's a stretch to give him a larger role on the team. Bortuzzo and Strait also showed that they are NHL players and can easily handle bottom-pairing minutes, at a minimum. I also have a lot more confidence in Lovejoy than most people around here so I'm not afraid to roll the dice without Michalek & Martin with no huge FA signing.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:49 pm

Also, when Dupuis scores in the playoffs his team doesn't win the cup.

When Dupuis is held without a point in the playoffs, his team wins the cup.

Food for thought...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:54 pm

steelhammer wrote:
Rylan wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:
Rylan wrote:Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.

I'd rather roll with Despres and Strait/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Lovejoy + $9MM in cap space (to spend however, guarantees be damned) than Martin and Michalek. That's my personal opinion. I simply do not see the significant drop from Martin to one of those young guys. Right now, in my mind, Martin is a 3rd pair guy behind Letang, Niskanen, Orpik, and Despres. I'll take the $5MM in hand in the free agent market and roll the dice.


You can't gamble like that. The d-corps is terrible if you have Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, or Lovejoy playing any significant minutes. Martin is a top 4 defenseman. You are over valuing a currently unproven commodity in Despres. You keep Martin until you have proven a valuable replacement. Being liquid and having money to spend is worthless if you have nothing to spend it on. Money only holds value when it is spent.


Engelland proved this season that he can take a top-4 role and not look out of place. He's continually getting better so I don't think it's a stretch to give him a larger role on the team. Bortuzzo and Strait also showed that they are NHL players and can easily handle bottom-pairing minutes, at a minimum. I also have a lot more confidence in Lovejoy than most people around here so I'm not afraid to roll the dice without Michalek & Martin with no huge FA signing.


Engelland is not a top-4 defenseman. If he plays top-4 minutes this team is going to be in major trouble. You can not have up to 3 rookies playing on you d. (Depres, Bortuzzo, and Strait. I don't any have played enough games to be called vets and while I don't mind Lovejoy, just say no.) That is a disaster waiting to happen. You keep Martin until you can't. Its that simple. If the Pens acquire Suter, the market for Martin goes up. Wait until there is a reason to trade, not to hope to have a reason to validate the trade being worth it.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby steelhammer on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Rylan wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
Rylan wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:
Rylan wrote:Yes, when Martin plays like he is capable of he is worth $5mil.

You are also hinging your argument on the fact that the Pens will have either Suter or Weber come October. You can not and should not move Martin until it is guaranteed fact because you can't have the defense looking without both Martin and Michalek.

I'd rather roll with Despres and Strait/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Lovejoy + $9MM in cap space (to spend however, guarantees be damned) than Martin and Michalek. That's my personal opinion. I simply do not see the significant drop from Martin to one of those young guys. Right now, in my mind, Martin is a 3rd pair guy behind Letang, Niskanen, Orpik, and Despres. I'll take the $5MM in hand in the free agent market and roll the dice.


You can't gamble like that. The d-corps is terrible if you have Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, or Lovejoy playing any significant minutes. Martin is a top 4 defenseman. You are over valuing a currently unproven commodity in Despres. You keep Martin until you have proven a valuable replacement. Being liquid and having money to spend is worthless if you have nothing to spend it on. Money only holds value when it is spent.


Engelland proved this season that he can take a top-4 role and not look out of place. He's continually getting better so I don't think it's a stretch to give him a larger role on the team. Bortuzzo and Strait also showed that they are NHL players and can easily handle bottom-pairing minutes, at a minimum. I also have a lot more confidence in Lovejoy than most people around here so I'm not afraid to roll the dice without Michalek & Martin with no huge FA signing.


Engelland is not a top-4 defenseman. If he plays top-4 minutes this team is going to be in major trouble. You can not have up to 3 rookies playing on you d. (Depres, Bortuzzo, and Strait. I don't any have played enough games to be called vets and while I don't mind Lovejoy, just say no.) That is a disaster waiting to happen. You keep Martin until you can't. Its that simple. If the Pens acquire Suter, the market for Martin goes up. Wait until there is a reason to trade, not to hope to have a reason to validate the trade being worth it.


You are free to feel that Engelland is not a top-4 dman, but he was in a top-4 role for at least a quarter of the season this year and he didn't look out of place at all. In fact, he looked better.

Letang - Orpik
Niskanen - Engelland
Despres - Lovejoy
Bortuzzo/Strait (whoever wins out the role in camp)

I have no problem with that lineup. I'm more nervous about Niskanen in the top-4 than Engelland. Honestly, I don't care if the pass on re-signing Niskanen.
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