Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

[mikey287]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

[columbia]

He was 6th in TOI/G in the playoffs and by a very wide margin:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm? ... =timeOnIce

[KG]

I think the D will look something like this next year:

Letang/big new guy (Suter/Yandle/Dan Boyle I've seen his name linked to the pens for some reason)
Niskanen/Orpik
Engelland/Despres/Bortuzzo/Strait

Shero will go with a veteran top 4...

[Rylan]

I alternate reading mikey's posts as either William Shatner (lots of ellipsis) or Mordin from Mass Effect (when no ...)

[steelhammer]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

In 26 of his 73 games last season he logged over 17 minutes/game. He averaged 15:06 ESTOI/game which is pretty respectable considering the kind of minutes our top 4 normally logs and only 8 seconds less per game than Niskanen. I thought his season was very respectable. Not spectacular, but much better than most people were expecting. His skating and first pass both improved significantly.

[Rylan]

15 minutes is definitely 5-6 defenseman.

It also means that he played a significant portion of the season at sub 15 minutes to level his average out from the 17+ minutes. That is not a top-4 player if there are around 20 games where he played 13-14 minutes. I am content with him at 6. Any higher and that's a disaster.

[columbia]

I view Engelland as someone like AA (Yes, I'm aware that they play different positions):
Someone who is legit NHL player, but just happens to no be particularly good or noteworthy. That's fine, because the league needs people like that, but let's please not think about elevating him to 17/18 minutes a night.

[mikey287]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

In 26 of his 73 games last season he logged over 17 minutes/game. He averaged 15:06 ESTOI/game which is pretty respectable considering the kind of minutes our top 4 normally logs and only 8 seconds less per game than Niskanen. I thought his season was very respectable. Not spectacular, but much better than most people were expecting. His skating and first pass both improved significantly.

I'd certainly hope he'd improve a little bit. A near-30 year old minor league joureyman now playing with the big boys for the first time. He had no where to go but up. He's an average guy that you try to hide at the #6 spot. No hiding in the playoffs - isn't that right Ryan Parent/Lukas Krajicek? Fine guy in the regular season, when the chips are down, on the big stage, I couldn't bring myself to put him out there. I hope we have a top-6 that doesn't include him. But will understand if we don't.

[steelhammer]

15 minutes is definitely 5-6 defenseman.

It also means that he played a significant portion of the season at sub 15 minutes to level his average out from the 17+ minutes. That is not a top-4 player if there are around 20 games where he played 13-14 minutes. I am content with him at 6. Any higher and that's a disaster.

No, 15 minutes of ES time per game is better than a typical #6 d-man. Michalek averaged 17:46 of ES time so Engelland wasn't as far away as you are suggesting. The top 4 was set for most of the year and those players eat a TON of minutes. What do you expect? Engelland made the most when he was called upon to play top-4 minutes and was not a liability at all.

[Rylan]

Yea but he doesn't kill penalties, he doesn't do PP, he is just even strength. Ergo, he averaged. just 15 minutes a game.

Michalek did PK and occasional PP.
Martin does PK and occasional PP.
Letang does PK and PP.
Orpik does PK.
Niskanen does PP.
Engelland....

He is not a special teams player. Therefore he is not top 4.

[steelhammer]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

In 26 of his 73 games last season he logged over 17 minutes/game. He averaged 15:06 ESTOI/game which is pretty respectable considering the kind of minutes our top 4 normally logs and only 8 seconds less per game than Niskanen. I thought his season was very respectable. Not spectacular, but much better than most people were expecting. His skating and first pass both improved significantly.

I'd certainly hope he'd improve a little bit. A near-30 year old minor league joureyman now playing with the big boys for the first time. He had no where to go but up. He's an average guy that you try to hide at the #6 spot. No hiding in the playoffs - isn't that right Ryan Parent/Lukas Krajicek? Fine guy in the regular season, when the chips are down, on the big stage, I couldn't bring myself to put him out there. I hope we have a top-6 that doesn't include him. But will understand if we don't.

I understand that Engelland isn't an ideal choice for a top-4 player, but he is more capable than you are giving him credit for. You have at least conceded that he is a top-6 d-man which is a couple steps up from where you were on him at the beginning of last season. Maybe he takes another leap forward next season?

[steelhammer]

Yea but he doesn't kill penalties, he doesn't do PP, he is just even strength. Ergo, he averaged. just 15 minutes a game.

Michalek did PK and occasional PP.
Martin does PK and occasional PP.
Letang does PK and PP.
Orpik does PK.
Niskanen does PP.
Engelland....

He is not a special teams player. Therefore he is not top 4.

He started getting PK time last season. 1 min/game. Not much, but it's a start. Yes, we will have a huge hole to fill with Michalek out next season.

[Rylan]

I like Engelland, but he is at his ceiling on this hockey team.

Letang/Orpik
Martin/Niskanen
Despres/Engo

I think that is the absolute worst our defense can look going into the season to still consider the Pens a top 5 team.

[mikey287]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

In 26 of his 73 games last season he logged over 17 minutes/game. He averaged 15:06 ESTOI/game which is pretty respectable considering the kind of minutes our top 4 normally logs and only 8 seconds less per game than Niskanen. I thought his season was very respectable. Not spectacular, but much better than most people were expecting. His skating and first pass both improved significantly.

I'd certainly hope he'd improve a little bit. A near-30 year old minor league joureyman now playing with the big boys for the first time. He had no where to go but up. He's an average guy that you try to hide at the #6 spot. No hiding in the playoffs - isn't that right Ryan Parent/Lukas Krajicek? Fine guy in the regular season, when the chips are down, on the big stage, I couldn't bring myself to put him out there. I hope we have a top-6 that doesn't include him. But will understand if we don't.

I understand that Engelland isn't an ideal choice for a top-4 player, but he is more capable than you are giving him credit for. You have at least conceded that he is a top-6 d-man which is a couple steps up from where you were on him at the beginning of last season. Maybe he takes another leap forward next season?

Yeah he jumped from a #8 to a #6/#7 that I wouldn't trust to take a playoff shift. Technically, that is progress. How much is this 30-year-old former minor league journeyman planning on improving? If he plays top-4 on any team in the league, they're a lottery team. I don't think he'd ever get such an opportunity. He's just not a good player, I don't feel. I hope I'm wrong, I'm hope he wins the Norris next year and wins the Cup with us...whatever wins the Cup. But, in the here and now, I wouldn't be so much concerned if he was lost on waivers on October 3rd. Not ideal maybe, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash at such a scenario. I don't find him to be an important part of our past, present or future. If he wants to be a 7 that comes in when some rabblerousers come to town, sure, but I'm not letting this guy play one-third of a playoff game...get outta town...

[pfim]

Engelland is a 6/7, with greater "worth" in the regular season given his ability to fight.

[KG]

Toronto dealt Schenn, maybe they would have interest in Martin...

[steelhammer]

I'm surprised steelhammer, to say that Engelland has proven himself to be a guy to handle top-4 minutes. I felt quite the opposite, actually. I thought he proved to be a guy that shouldn't be in the optimal lineup on a contending team. If we go into the playoffs with Engelland as any more than 7 or a swing 6/7 guy, I'll have some concerns.

Odd sentiment from the board in general, that they are content with as many as 3 rookies perhaps (or 2 rookies and a minor league journeyman) rolling into a contending season on the blueline. Might work, might not. Not saying wrong or right, not an indictment, just a little bit surprising for this point of view.

In 26 of his 73 games last season he logged over 17 minutes/game. He averaged 15:06 ESTOI/game which is pretty respectable considering the kind of minutes our top 4 normally logs and only 8 seconds less per game than Niskanen. I thought his season was very respectable. Not spectacular, but much better than most people were expecting. His skating and first pass both improved significantly.

I'd certainly hope he'd improve a little bit. A near-30 year old minor league joureyman now playing with the big boys for the first time. He had no where to go but up. He's an average guy that you try to hide at the #6 spot. No hiding in the playoffs - isn't that right Ryan Parent/Lukas Krajicek? Fine guy in the regular season, when the chips are down, on the big stage, I couldn't bring myself to put him out there. I hope we have a top-6 that doesn't include him. But will understand if we don't.

I understand that Engelland isn't an ideal choice for a top-4 player, but he is more capable than you are giving him credit for. You have at least conceded that he is a top-6 d-man which is a couple steps up from where you were on him at the beginning of last season. Maybe he takes another leap forward next season?

Yeah he jumped from a #8 to a #6/#7 that I wouldn't trust to take a playoff shift. Technically, that is progress. How much is this 30-year-old former minor league journeyman planning on improving? If he plays top-4 on any team in the league, they're a lottery team. I don't think he'd ever get such an opportunity. He's just not a good player, I don't feel. I hope I'm wrong, I'm hope he wins the Norris next year and wins the Cup with us...whatever wins the Cup. But, in the here and now, I wouldn't be so much concerned if he was lost on waivers on October 3rd. Not ideal maybe, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash at such a scenario. I don't find him to be an important part of our past, present or future. If he wants to be a 7 that comes in when some rabblerousers come to town, sure, but I'm not letting this guy play one-third of a playoff game...get outta town...

In the playoffs he averaged 1.92 EVGA/60. Compare that to Letang & Orpik, 3.80 & 4.03 EVGA/60, respectively.

Also, wow, Michalek actually had a really good playoffs both at EV and PK in terms of Goals Against while on the ice.

[burghsportsguys]

Engelland is not a top-4 defenseman. If he plays top-4 minutes this team is going to be in major trouble. You can not have up to 3 rookies playing on you d. (Depres, Bortuzzo, and Strait. I don't any have played enough games to be called vets and while I don't mind Lovejoy, just say no.) That is a disaster waiting to happen. You keep Martin until you can't. Its that simple. If the Pens acquire Suter, the market for Martin goes up. Wait until there is a reason to trade, not to hope to have a reason to validate the trade being worth it.

At the close of season (last quarter and playoffs), Martin was the worst defenseman on the team. He was awful. The real RISK is assuming that he will play his best hockey and sustain through the season and into the playoffs. The Paul Martin that suited up against Philly was worse than any rookie we could have put on the ice. He is a top 4 d-man in salary only, not in the way that he played.

By the way, we were outworked and outplayed by how many ROOKIES on the Flyers? What is the fear with rookies?

I see no risk in letting Martin go. The biggest risk is they have to overpay a $2MM guy and give him $3MM, in which case they are still $2MM to the good, i.e., there is no risk.

But honestly the real issue here is you put WAY more value on Martin than I (and others) do. That's all this boils down to - I would agree that it's risky to deal away a highly-skilled d-man and hope to get Suter or Weber. But I'm perfectly content dealing away a guy that is making 2x to 3x the value he actually brings. Since you view him as the highly-skilled guy, we won't ever agree on this one.

[mikey287]

Just to snip something out of that.

You somehow draw comparisons between two top-10 picks at forward (Schenn, Couturier) as rookies vs. Brian Strait and Robert Bortuzzo on the blueline? I'm not sure that's a productive area of discussion.

[burghsportsguys]

Just to snip something out of that.

You somehow draw comparisons between two top-10 picks at forward (Schenn, Couturier) as rookies vs. Brian Strait and Robert Bortuzzo on the blueline? I'm not sure that's a productive area of discussion.

I'm 100% comfortable with Despres and Morrow. Given what I saw from Martin last year, I'm more than open to letting guys like Strait and Bortuzzo compete for a vacated spot, if necessary, though I would prefer to see Morrow. Don't forget Wellwood, Read, and Rinaldo as well for Philly.

You can slice and dice it any way you'd like, but at the end of the day if the choice is opening the season with $5MM in cap space on Martin OR spending that elsewhere and allowing rookies (including first round picks with lots of talent) to compete for the vacated spots, sign me up.

While it would be asinine to compare Schenn to Strait, it's equally crazy to compare losing Martin to losing Richards.

[mikey287]

Wellwood- 4th liner wasn't used but sparingly, Rinaldo is not NHLer and proved it, Read is like 42 years old. Again, not really a comparison to letting a player like Morrow play defense without ever playing professional hockey in his life. 4th line grinders can come in and have a specialty - Wellwood is all speed and work, so he can play 9 minutes in a game and get off...Rinaldo is a big sack of dog vomit, so he can come in for 48 seconds and get a thrown out...no big deal. Someone like Morrow being expected to go from junior hockey to 20+ minutes a night in the NHL is very presumptious and very different than the Flyers situation. I'm really not seeing any sort of logical comparison here. I hope that Morrow surprises everyone and makes the team next year, that'd be great to know that we have sure thing...but that's not the expectation. Purging NHLers for mid-round draft picks to allow players that have never taken a shift of pro hockey in their life is kind of russian roulette-ish. Maybe you'll survive...

[lemieuxReturns]

why have the pens not re-signed niski yet? I would think regardless of how things play out with suter and parise, that he would be in the plans for next season.

[mikey287]

why have the pens not re-signed niski yet? I would think regardless of how things play out with suter and parise, that he would be in the plans for next season.

First offseason? Not uncommon for RFAs not to be signed by now, we hold his rights, don't worry. We had more important matters to tend to (Staal, the draft, salary dumps, etc.) - we'll get Niskanen signed, don't worry. We have all kinds of time.

[FC]

I like what Engel brings to the defensive core...He's tough...He's gritty...His team mates seem to love him. At best he is a 6 or 7...He makes bad decisions with the puck in pressure situations.

If the team is going with the kids (Despres Morrow Dumoulin in any combination) they must play real minutes in real situations.

Playoff positioning is meaningless...All you need is a ticket to the dance. After you play 80 games in the show you're no longer a rookie.

Mickey has a good point about 2 rookies in the defensive core...The best 6 should play....That does not mean the best 7 will make the team.

I believe the Pens want to add 2 premier players post 7-1...In 10 days we will know.

[burghsportsguys]

Someone like Morrow being expected to go from junior hockey to 20+ minutes a night in the NHL is very presumptious and very different than the Flyers situation.

Different than asking a guy to go from junior hockey to checking the Hart Trophy winner shift in and shift out (Couturier) in the playoffs?

I'm really not seeing any sort of logical comparison here.

You aren't seeing it because you aren't comparing apples to apples. Guys like Strait and Bortuzzo will fill the Wellwood/Read roles. Guys like Despres and Morrow will fill roles like Schenn and Couturier - those are the apples to apples comparisons.

I hope that Morrow surprises everyone and makes the team next year, that'd be great to know that we have sure thing...but that's not the expectation.

An no one could have expected Schenn and Couturier to play the roles that they played. If Martin stays, he is a mortal lock as a top-4 defender, regardless of whether he earns that spot. Even if Morrow, Strait, Bortuzzo, et al., outplay him in camp, he HAS to play based on his salary. That really sucks to back yourself into that corner based on how much a guy is paid.

Purging NHLers for mid-round draft picks to allow players that have never taken a shift of pro hockey in their life is kind of russian roulette-ish. Maybe you'll survive...

Really? I can see having that feeling when you lose a Ryan Malone or guys like Scuderi, even Hal Gill, but given how Martin performed, as opposed to the theoretical value that you get from a $5MM per year defenseman, I don't see the risk. Remember, there will be $5MM to spend, it's not like they get nothing in return. AT WORST, you use that $5MM to overpay someone that is at Martin's level. That's the worst case scenario. Sure, we can invent a scenario where no one wants to come here, but that's not realistic. If you can't land Suter or Weber, you go to the next tier.