Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:49 pm

So I keep reading how the pens will have 8 defenseman who will have to clear waivers. Which defenseman are they?
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:51 pm

I guess it's just philosophical differences...I'll answer though...in order.

- Yes.
- Don't buy comparisons between defensive responsibilities and lower level forward responsibilities. Sorry, I just don't feel the same way. So much more responsibility for d-men. Especially in our system, their factors into the transition of our offense is a lot of pressure. Which is why Engelland was useless when the speed of the game picked up. A lot of new guys are from fast-paced systems (Morrow, Pouliot, Despres) so maybe they'll transition a little easier, but good solid defense is still gonna be a work in progress.
- Part of Couturier's success was Bylsma's lack of adjustments. Continuing with the same style and changing into the same matchups in every situation was just asking for failure. I won't take anything from Couturier, but this wasn't a Gilmour on Gretzky deal here...
- Didn't understand the relevance to Malone, Scuderi or Gill. Trading in under-performing players for money is good...if that money goes towards something else productive. As pfim has said, cap space can't play. I don't mind dumping Michalek and Martin in the context of a plan that works. I do mind dumping Martin and Michalek and being left with a depleted roster or a handful of magic beans.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:54 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:So I keep reading how the pens will have 8 defenseman who will have to clear waivers. Which defenseman are they?


I think it's the obvious 6 plus Strait and Bortuzzo, though I believe Sneep has to be getting close too.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:08 pm

mikey287 wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:So I keep reading how the pens will have 8 defenseman who will have to clear waivers. Which defenseman are they?


I think it's the obvious 6 plus Strait and Bortuzzo, though I believe Sneep has to be getting close too.



Oh. Well that's not bad then.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby burghsportsguys on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:39 pm

mikey287 wrote:I guess it's just philosophical differences...I'll answer though...in order.

Maybe just a timing difference. I have 100% confidence that they would use the $5MM to backfill. You, maybe, are not that confident? I've simply seen enough from Shero to give me the full confidence that they wouldn't be left holding a big amount of unused cap space. Again, in my eyes, the worst case is they would have to overpay a guy to fill the hole if they weren't able to land their top choice(s).

I agree with the post earlier that basically said "by the time the playoffs are here, you aren't a rookie anymore" and I'm willing to live with some growing pains for guys like Despres/Morrow if that's what it takes. Better yet, we land a guy like Suter and re-up with Nisky and give Morrow one more year if needed.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby joker10277 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:13 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:So I keep reading how the pens will have 8 defenseman who will have to clear waivers. Which defenseman are they?


Orpik
letang
niskanen
engelland
lovejoy
martin
strait
bortuzzo
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:21 am

I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby skullman80 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:04 am

The guy is 30. He's a journeyman defensemen that is good for what he is. Playing in the 5 or 6 hole at best, and being able to spot duty on the top 4 if no one else is available(I think that is even a stretch to be honest)

I like the guy, I like the tenacity he brings, but he isn't anything more than a 5 or 6. He's not ever going to be a top 4 guy. Its not like he is in his early to mid 20's and still developing. He's past that point, he's 30... he is what he is.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:55 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.


I think the point is:

Are you comfortable going into the season banking on him doing this? Or are you more comfortable keeping him in the bottom pairing and seeing if he does develop before counting on him in our top 4 every night.

This only came up b/c a bunch of people were saying to unload Martin at all costs right now, regardless of who we do or do not sign. I am on the side that says they need something in place before they can do that b/c if Suter or another dman doesn't sign, Engelland will HAVE to progress to a 3/4 or we are screwed.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby columbia on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:03 am

I'm hoping that RS talks to NSH later this week and gets permission to talk with Suter.
If they sign him, Martin goes the other way.

I realize that it's a religious holiday around here to criticize Martin, but NSH isn't going to get a better return for Suter.
As it stands, they're not going to get anything.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby The Current One on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:08 am

I will be jumping for joy when Martin is moved. I can't imagine anyone would take him on at that salary for three more years, but it sounds like teams are interested.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:11 am

The Current One wrote:I will be jumping for joy when Martin is moved. I can't imagine anyone would take him on at that salary for three more years, but it sounds like teams are interested.


Sounds like Whitney... everyone said he was worthless and the Pens should be happy to get anything back. As it turns out, other teams don't participate on message boards where a player is either the best in the world and worth nothing less than a team's best player, their best prospect, and a 1st rounder or 2 OR they are the worst player in the world and the GM should be thankful anyone would even inquire about him.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby columbia on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:20 am

If NSH is really smart, they'll allow a number of teams to negotiate with Suter, after a agreed upon minimum return from each. Suter is in the drivers seat here and NSH basically has to take what they can get, but letting him walk without any return is not an option.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:41 am

columbia wrote:If NSH is really smart, they'll allow a number of teams to negotiate with Suter, after a agreed upon minimum return from each. Suter is in the drivers seat here and NSH basically has to take what they can get, but letting him walk without any return is not an option.

How would they do this? No other teams can negotiate with Sutter unless they have his rights or it's a violation of the CBA.

atleastimprettysurethatshowitworks
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Froggy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:52 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
columbia wrote:If NSH is really smart, they'll allow a number of teams to negotiate with Suter, after a agreed upon minimum return from each. Suter is in the drivers seat here and NSH basically has to take what they can get, but letting him walk without any return is not an option.

How would they do this? No other teams can negotiate with Sutter unless they have his rights or it's a violation of the CBA.

atleastimprettysurethatshowitworks


yeah, once they trade his rights, they no longer own his contract
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby pugilist13 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:15 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.

Nice post Hugo. I often get crucified on this board because i mention the guys name. I just happen to like the guy, and what he brings to the bottom pair. Look around the league at other bottom pairs. Loaded with young guys getting their feet wet or journeymen types that have been playing that role for much of their careers. Expanded role is possible.
Last edited by pugilist13 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby joker10277 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:18 pm

I don't know how you go after suter, their going to have to pay letang close to karrlson type money in two years. Also, until the pens change the way they play in their own end, I don't think the results are going to be very different even with suter. They need an assistant coach that knows defense, I'm not talking playing the trap just somebody to teach these guys to be in good position and keep guys away from the goaltender.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Tico Rick on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:23 pm

Froggy wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
columbia wrote:If NSH is really smart, they'll allow a number of teams to negotiate with Suter, after a agreed upon minimum return from each. Suter is in the drivers seat here and NSH basically has to take what they can get, but letting him walk without any return is not an option.

How would they do this? No other teams can negotiate with Sutter unless they have his rights or it's a violation of the CBA.

atleastimprettysurethatshowitworks


yeah, once they trade his rights, they no longer own his contract


Nashville can give other teams permission to talk to Suter, so those teams would have an idea whether or not they could do a deal with him before acquiring his rights. That's what the Pens did with Vokoun.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:40 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.


Holy Cow :!: :!: :!: :!: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:41 pm

Tico Rick wrote:
Froggy wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
columbia wrote:If NSH is really smart, they'll allow a number of teams to negotiate with Suter, after a agreed upon minimum return from each. Suter is in the drivers seat here and NSH basically has to take what they can get, but letting him walk without any return is not an option.

How would they do this? No other teams can negotiate with Sutter unless they have his rights or it's a violation of the CBA.

atleastimprettysurethatshowitworks


yeah, once they trade his rights, they no longer own his contract


Nashville can give other teams permission to talk to Suter, so those teams would have an idea whether or not they could do a deal with him before acquiring his rights. That's what the Pens did with Vokoun.


Nashville can allow other teams to speak Suter while he's under contract, if Poile grants permission, yes. If Nashville is intent on trying to keep him, though, then it's not in their best interest, obviously.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby steelhammer on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:55 pm

pugilist13 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.

Nice post Hugo. I often get crucified on this board because i mention the guys name. I just happen to like the guy, and what he brings to the bottom pair. Look around the league at other bottom pairs. Loaded with young guys getting their feet wet or journeymen types that have been playing that role for much of their careers. Expanded role is possible.


The question is how much will Engelland improve? Based on how he improved over the last two season, and especially how much he improved last season, I think it is very fair to say that he will still be able to progress next season. His skating in particular has come a long way. Not everyone in the top 4 is going to be an all-star. The hope is that someone who comes cheap can be complementary to someone who is a lot better and who is paid a lot more. That's the only way we will be able to even think of signing someone like Suter, and or giving Letang a huge raise in a couple seasons. At that time we won't be able to afford to pay our 4th D $3M or more.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm

Wow already completely forgot about Lovejoy. Why didn't we move him at the draft for like a 5th or 6th or something?
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:18 pm

Nizzy wrote:Wow already completely forgot about Lovejoy. Why didn't we move him at the draft for like a 5th or 6th or something?


Why would someone give us a 5th for him? Players like Lovejoy are a dime a dozen, why not just wait a week and sign your own? Worst case scenario, there's another dozen of him on waivers in the first week of October. Not reason to really give up an asset for a player that is waiver-eligible and isn't a guarantee to make your team. By acquiring him, you lock him into your NHL roster...doesn't make sense to do on June 22nd.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:19 pm

Nizzy wrote:Wow already completely forgot about Lovejoy. Why didn't we move him at the draft for like a 5th or 6th or something?


Probably b/c he wasn't worth a 5/6th rounder. I mean... a 5th round dman could easily have the same abilities. There are approximately 300 Lovejoy's around the NHL and in the systems of other teams.

Not trying to be a smart ass, but I don't think he would have gotten anything other than "future considerations."
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:22 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Wow already completely forgot about Lovejoy. Why didn't we move him at the draft for like a 5th or 6th or something?


Why would someone give us a 5th for him? Players like Lovejoy are a dime a dozen, why not just wait a week and sign your own? Worst case scenario, there's another dozen of him on waivers in the first week of October. Not reason to really give up an asset for a player that is waiver-eligible and isn't a guarantee to make your team. By acquiring him, you lock him into your NHL roster...doesn't make sense to do on June 22nd.

I'm still wondering where those people are who were defending Lovejoy as something of the second coming a couple years ago. Either way he needs waived and planted in the AHL unless the Pens really need him, and if someone grabs him off waivers then great.
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