Other D options besides Suter

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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Matt Carle is horrible defensively...why would we bring him in? And likely for at least twice the price of Niskanen...very confusing.


Matt Carle is not HORRIBLE defensively. That's quite an overstatement. I'm not a huge believer in the +/- stat, but I do believe it can be telling and looking at his +/- minus stat, they've been kind of staggering over the past few years. I'm not saying he's amazing in his own end, but he's pretty solid.

Everyone is high on Ryan Suter and while I obviously think he's better than Matt Carle, you look at their stats and they're pretty similar so I'm not sure what you'd be expecting out of him if you're in the camp of getting Suter. They're both puck-moving offensive-minded dmen. Suter is good defensively, but he's honestly not worlds above Carle in that department.

Picking up a guy like Suter or Carle is the Pens addressing the need that their transition game(something Martin was supposed to help with) needs to be stronger.


Yeah, he's quite bad defensively. He's about as good defensively as P.A. Parenteau is strong/rugged. I have no idea what his +/- numbers look like, that's a stupid stat it doesn't say much without context. Here's some context though, you are aware that in 2011 he was paired with Chris Pronger though, right? So I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that he was one of the best on the team in plus/minus or the best in 2011 and was probably one of the worst or the worst on the team this year without Pronger by his side.

Carle was nearly on his way out of the league a couple years ago because of how bad he was defensively. Granted, he's improved a bit. But this is a guy that's known for his power play ability and puck-movement...we have these guys already...it's just weird to me that we seem to be just naming players at random and then thinking they're a good idea...why are we trying to add a purely offensive defenseman? Moreover, at twice the price of Niskanen...? Why not...you know...sign Niskanen and pray that Matt Carle remains in Philadelphia?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby ville5 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:29 pm

Surely you jest. Shero has a chance to add a quality D prospect @ merely the cost of a contract. He's salivating like a lion chasing a zebra w/ a broken leg.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if he signs near home.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby sil on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:35 pm

I wouldn't mind Carle...but not at the price he's going to get. It'd be like paying Goose over $4,000,000...and who in their right minds would do that!?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby TheGhostofGoulet on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:46 pm

ville5 wrote:Surely you jest. Shero has a chance to add a quality D prospect @ merely the cost of a contract. He's salivating like a lion chasing a zebra w/ a broken leg.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if he signs near home.


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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby seabiscuit on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:10 pm

pugilist13 wrote:Lets resign Bortuzzo and Strait and keep them buried in the minors until they're 30, then say they suck and have no upside. On a serious note, Bryan Allen is a more realistic option out of the UFA's.

Don't know why Shero didnt score rights to Allen in the Staal trade.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:12 pm

seabiscuit wrote:
pugilist13 wrote:Lets resign Bortuzzo and Strait and keep them buried in the minors until they're 30, then say they suck and have no upside. On a serious note, Bryan Allen is a more realistic option out of the UFA's.

Don't know why Shero didnt score rights to Allen in the Staal trade.


Why give up an asset for a low-to-mid tier free agent when you can just talk to him for free on July 1? I think the player also would be intent on testing the market given the few quality free agents out there. Why would the player cap his earning power in such a fashion?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby owtahear on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:48 pm

After giving this alot of thought......personally, I would go all in for Zach Parise. And assume the Red Wings get Suter. I would then look at Bryce Salvador. He is getting up there, but has not won a cup, was outstanding for Jersey in their finals run this year, a good left handed partner for Letang, a warrior, wouldn't cost much. In fact, unless they can move Paul Martin, I would not worry about it and hope Martin rebounds with a good season. He has been a good player for almost all of his career. While his salary is a bit much, having Parise and Salvador on the team may help him get comfortable, and if he rebounds strongly, that makes him much easier to trade next off season. Aside from Parise and Suter, not much else out there. The team can now afford Martin for another year, to wait until some of the guys like Morrow and Dumolin are for sure ready. Not the worst thing.

Plus, they still can move some dmen when needed during the trade deadline if they need to fill out the roster.

My next week for GMRS is as follows:

*** Sign Sid to long term deal then....

1) Sign Parise
2) Sign Salvador
3) Sign Moen

4) If you can trade Martin, fine.
5) If you can trade Kennedy, fine.

After this....take the summer off. You earned it Ray.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Streaks House on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:57 pm

I heard today that Carlo Colaiacavo is unlikely to re-sign with the Blues. Wouldn't be a bad option.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby bh on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:28 pm

I think Ray will try and land Suter. Who knows if we get him or not. That aside, I think we need to let the youngsters play a lot during the season and build some experience and game knowledge. Despres, Strait, Bert, and even Lovejoy. We have a lot of young guys that have potential to turn into something serviceable and they won't get there without playing some minutes.

I just hope they fix whatever was going on at the end of last season. There needs to be some focus on good solid team defense.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Streaks House on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:37 pm

bh wrote:I think Ray will try and land Suter. Who knows if we get him or not. That aside, I think we need to let the youngsters play a lot during the season and build some experience and game knowledge. Despres, Strait, Bert, and even Lovejoy. We have a lot of young guys that have potential to turn into something serviceable and they won't get there without playing some minutes.

I just hope they fix whatever was going on at the end of last season. There needs to be some focus on good solid team defense.


I can't say I'd be too confident in the defense corps if more than 1 of the above defenseman is penciled into the top-6. And based on the current roster, the Pens would be forced to resort to this if there was an injury in the top-4.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby columbia on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:38 pm

The NHL’s top unrestricted free agents: The defencemen
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/h ... le4374256/

They have Justin Schultz listed at #3.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:49 pm

The Ducks have until Sunday to sign Schultz, correct?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:50 pm

Gaucho wrote:The Ducks have until Sunday to sign Schultz, correct?


He's unrestricted now. Can't sign until Sunday. Will not sign with the Ducks, never had the intent to. Probably will sign with Toronto, Edmonton or Vancouver (most likely the latter) on Sunday. Lots of teams are interested, most know they don't have a real chance at him.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Pitts on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:51 pm

Gaucho wrote:The Ducks have until Sunday to sign Schultz, correct?

They had until last Sunday to sign him. Because they didn't, he became a UFA. Now, any team can sign him this coming Sunday.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:56 pm

So he's intent on signing with a Canadian team?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:01 pm

Gaucho wrote:So he's intent on signing with a Canadian team?


Seems pretty likely from what I understand. Teams are capped by the entry-level system, so money won't make a difference. Promises and location are the main driving force. If he can get an NHL job right off the hop in the location he wants, he's there I believe.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:13 pm

Denis Wideman just signed for 5 years/$26.25M in Calgary... if anyone thought the year Martin was signed that there were gonna be over-payments, this is gonna really blow the roof off it.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:19 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Matt Carle is horrible defensively...why would we bring him in? And likely for at least twice the price of Niskanen...very confusing.


Matt Carle is not HORRIBLE defensively. That's quite an overstatement. I'm not a huge believer in the +/- stat, but I do believe it can be telling and looking at his +/- minus stat, they've been kind of staggering over the past few years. I'm not saying he's amazing in his own end, but he's pretty solid.

Everyone is high on Ryan Suter and while I obviously think he's better than Matt Carle, you look at their stats and they're pretty similar so I'm not sure what you'd be expecting out of him if you're in the camp of getting Suter. They're both puck-moving offensive-minded dmen. Suter is good defensively, but he's honestly not worlds above Carle in that department.

Picking up a guy like Suter or Carle is the Pens addressing the need that their transition game(something Martin was supposed to help with) needs to be stronger.


Yeah, he's quite bad defensively. He's about as good defensively as P.A. Parenteau is strong/rugged. I have no idea what his +/- numbers look like, that's a stupid stat it doesn't say much without context. Here's some context though, you are aware that in 2011 he was paired with Chris Pronger though, right? So I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that he was one of the best on the team in plus/minus or the best in 2011 and was probably one of the worst or the worst on the team this year without Pronger by his side.

Carle was nearly on his way out of the league a couple years ago because of how bad he was defensively. Granted, he's improved a bit. But this is a guy that's known for his power play ability and puck-movement...we have these guys already...it's just weird to me that we seem to be just naming players at random and then thinking they're a good idea...why are we trying to add a purely offensive defenseman? Moreover, at twice the price of Niskanen...? Why not...you know...sign Niskanen and pray that Matt Carle remains in Philadelphia?


I guess you should be taking jobs away from other sports analysts... They all seem to think he's a solid two-way dman. I guess by your standard everywhere Carle has played he's been the benefit of looking better because of his teammates?

When was he nearly on his way out of the league?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby praxitas on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:26 pm

I can tell you living in central pa and being amongst more flyer fans than I care to be, they were not to fond of Carle. Personally, I would give one of the WBS guys a shot before signing him to a contract that would be a whole lot more than what you would pay Strait, Bortuzzo, Despres or the 80 other D prospects in the system.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Kovy27 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:51 pm

So, what about Jason Garrison?
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:58 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Matt Carle is horrible defensively...why would we bring him in? And likely for at least twice the price of Niskanen...very confusing.


Matt Carle is not HORRIBLE defensively. That's quite an overstatement. I'm not a huge believer in the +/- stat, but I do believe it can be telling and looking at his +/- minus stat, they've been kind of staggering over the past few years. I'm not saying he's amazing in his own end, but he's pretty solid.

Everyone is high on Ryan Suter and while I obviously think he's better than Matt Carle, you look at their stats and they're pretty similar so I'm not sure what you'd be expecting out of him if you're in the camp of getting Suter. They're both puck-moving offensive-minded dmen. Suter is good defensively, but he's honestly not worlds above Carle in that department.

Picking up a guy like Suter or Carle is the Pens addressing the need that their transition game(something Martin was supposed to help with) needs to be stronger.


Yeah, he's quite bad defensively. He's about as good defensively as P.A. Parenteau is strong/rugged. I have no idea what his +/- numbers look like, that's a stupid stat it doesn't say much without context. Here's some context though, you are aware that in 2011 he was paired with Chris Pronger though, right? So I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that he was one of the best on the team in plus/minus or the best in 2011 and was probably one of the worst or the worst on the team this year without Pronger by his side.

Carle was nearly on his way out of the league a couple years ago because of how bad he was defensively. Granted, he's improved a bit. But this is a guy that's known for his power play ability and puck-movement...we have these guys already...it's just weird to me that we seem to be just naming players at random and then thinking they're a good idea...why are we trying to add a purely offensive defenseman? Moreover, at twice the price of Niskanen...? Why not...you know...sign Niskanen and pray that Matt Carle remains in Philadelphia?


I guess you should be taking jobs away from other sports analysts... They all seem to think he's a solid two-way dman. I guess by your standard everywhere Carle has played he's been the benefit of looking better because of his teammates?

When was he nearly on his way out of the league?


I absolutely should. Not many in the media understand the game at all, it's a travesty. They don't know the rules, they don't understand how things work procedurally in the league and it shows in many articles. They can think whatever they want, they're wrong. It's just lazy. They see a guy that was a +30 last year and probably a plus player on this team and think "must be good defensively" and play it safe and call him a "two-way" guy...just like people in the media that call Jason Garrison of Florida an offensive defenseman because he scored 16 goals this year. They just don't watch him, so they don't know...so they make it up based on the first five columns of the stats page. Just like you made it up that Parenteau was "strong and rugged" by looking at his height and weight...same premise...

He got bounced around quite a bit for a good young defenseman (that is assuming that you would say he's "good")...after he got his contract with San Jose, he started to play horrendously, but no one would take him because of the contract. Only because Tampa's owners threatened to waive Dan Boyle if he didn't waive his NTC did they trade him to San Jose and the Sharks made it a point to make them take on the salary...with nothing standing in his way from being a top guy there, he was terrible and quickly was dumped by them because he wasn't worth the money and Philly got him and they were having a hard time with him for a bit too...then they paired him with Pronger and his deficiencies were masked quite well...last year, uncovered once more...
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:59 pm

Kovy27 wrote:So, what about Jason Garrison?


Yes but only if we are forced to keep Martin. Ideally we can sign Suter then add Allen/Garrison/Gill after moving Martin.
I would far rather the cap space were spent on D and the bottom 6 than on ZP, who is great but solves none of the actual problems.
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:01 pm

Kovy27 wrote:So, what about Jason Garrison?


That's a pretty penny he's gonna command. GMs hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. We could use him, don't let the offensive totals fool you - as I wrote for FF just yesterday - he's a defensive guy and he can log minutes against good competition with little problem. He'd be a good fit here, but I think he's gonna get north of $4 million per year and I think he's already picked out where he wants to play much like Hamhuis did last year or two years ago, whenever that was...

He's a good thought, but I don't think he's gonna come here...wouldn't mind it though...
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby joker10277 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:03 pm

Just noticed Mark Eaton is UFA............don't do it RS!
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Re: Other D options besides Suter

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:16 pm

joker10277 wrote:Just noticed Mark Eaton is UFA............don't do it RS!


He's been pretty horrendous recently.
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