(Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby JeanPronovost on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:14 pm

Defence21 wrote: Alex Goligoski for James Neal AND Matt Niskanen (Gogo was regarded as a 5th/6th defenseman among Pens fans, yet he brought in a young scoring winger AND a 5th/6th defenseman)
- Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Tim Erixson, and a 1st rounder for Rick Nash (Really?)
- Steve Ott and Adam Pardy for Derek Roy (Adam Pardy = throw-in akin to Kennedy to sweeten deal)


Niskanen and Pardy were salary dumps. I'm glad Niskanen has worked out for the Penguins, but the Stars' purpose was to get him off their books. He was not a deal sweetener. The condition of getting Neal for Gogo was to take Niskanen too.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Fire0nice228 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:27 pm

The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:41 pm

Fire0nice228 wrote:The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary


Bingo! The high percentage shots from key areas that the D were unable to stop (usually through a lack of physicality or poor decisions at the opposing blue line) are the ones that need to be addressed prior to any additional scoring is sought.

I also have faith in MAF esp with Vokoun pushing, but they need to eliminate those easy tap ins from the crease, and coaching needs to set the PK better against lateral feeds.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:25 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
shmenguin wrote:so what expectations do you have of a 3rd liner that aren't met here?


Besides the one you wrote? Which were clearly biased? Saying he does those things you listed which would make him an ideal 3rd line player or watching him and the other 2nd tier forwards on this team get pushed around, Not play defense, not cycle at all and play a mostly perimiter game?

You can have your version which clearly, along with Dupius and Cooke will give us the depth we need to not get pushed aroud and easily schemed to death in a playoff series.

If I would have known this about TK I woul have bought his jersey.


ok...i got my answer
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby DesertPenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:23 pm

I just watched the highlights of the first 4 games of the philly series on thepensblog.com. It reminded me what a total mess that whole affair was, and really shouldn't even influence personnel decisions because it was just so bizarre I doubt it would be repeated even with the exact rosters facing off next season. The team lost all composure and imploded in a way I'm not sure I've ever seen in sports. If anyone, the loss is on DB for that, but he gets this year to redeem himself.

Looking at what we gained/lost:

Sutter more or less matches Staal as a defensive player and a penalty killer, but theres definitely a drop off offensively. We also lost Sullivan, which may be addition by subtraction on defense but still subtracts 48 points. A healthy Sid all season doesn't replace that. We don't need a 30 goal scorer, but a guy who can score 20 and do the dirty work, Kunitz 2.0 basically, would help a lot.

Defensively, we should roll with what we have. Despres has arrived and that replaces Michalek. Let the young guys have a shot at filling in whatever deficiency we have. Its their time now, and theres so many of them Im sure one will stick.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:28 pm

Eff Doan
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:32 pm

JeanPronovost wrote:
Defence21 wrote: Alex Goligoski for James Neal AND Matt Niskanen (Gogo was regarded as a 5th/6th defenseman among Pens fans, yet he brought in a young scoring winger AND a 5th/6th defenseman)
- Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Tim Erixson, and a 1st rounder for Rick Nash (Really?)
- Steve Ott and Adam Pardy for Derek Roy (Adam Pardy = throw-in akin to Kennedy to sweeten deal)


Niskanen and Pardy were salary dumps. I'm glad Niskanen has worked out for the Penguins, but the Stars' purpose was to get him off their books. He was not a deal sweetener. The condition of getting Neal for Gogo was to take Niskanen too.


How do you know this as a fact?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:35 pm

People might be in for a bit of a surprise when they just dust their hands of Staal and think Sutter will step in and not miss a beat...Staal did some extraordinarily heavy lifting for us...I like Sutter, I hope he fits in here, I think he will, but he's not as good as Staal. Staal was a good two-way center playing on the third line...Sutter is a very good third line center. I don't think there's anything that Sutter does definitively better than Staal...

To think we're not going to miss a step is very optimistic...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:36 pm

Zach6668 wrote:
JeanPronovost wrote:
Defence21 wrote: Alex Goligoski for James Neal AND Matt Niskanen (Gogo was regarded as a 5th/6th defenseman among Pens fans, yet he brought in a young scoring winger AND a 5th/6th defenseman)
- Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Tim Erixson, and a 1st rounder for Rick Nash (Really?)
- Steve Ott and Adam Pardy for Derek Roy (Adam Pardy = throw-in akin to Kennedy to sweeten deal)


Niskanen and Pardy were salary dumps. I'm glad Niskanen has worked out for the Penguins, but the Stars' purpose was to get him off their books. He was not a deal sweetener. The condition of getting Neal for Gogo was to take Niskanen too.


How do you know this as a fact?


Both were contract dumps to the best of my knowledge. They both just about the worst d-men in the league when they were dealt. Niskanen I know was a contract dump...I believe Pardy was the same way...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:39 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Zach6668 wrote:
JeanPronovost wrote:
Defence21 wrote: Alex Goligoski for James Neal AND Matt Niskanen (Gogo was regarded as a 5th/6th defenseman among Pens fans, yet he brought in a young scoring winger AND a 5th/6th defenseman)
- Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Tim Erixson, and a 1st rounder for Rick Nash (Really?)
- Steve Ott and Adam Pardy for Derek Roy (Adam Pardy = throw-in akin to Kennedy to sweeten deal)


Niskanen and Pardy were salary dumps. I'm glad Niskanen has worked out for the Penguins, but the Stars' purpose was to get him off their books. He was not a deal sweetener. The condition of getting Neal for Gogo was to take Niskanen too.


How do you know this as a fact?


Both were contract dumps to the best of my knowledge. They both just about the worst d-men in the league when they were dealt. Niskanen I know was a contract dump...I believe Pardy was the same way...


I thought part of it was mutual; Shero wanted a d-man to "replace" Goligoski as well as Dallas wanted to get rid of Niskanen?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:45 pm

Hmm, ok. I know that was the rumor or the analysis at the time, but wasn't really sure if we knew it as fact. I'll trust you guys, though. Niskanen certainly needed a change of scenery at the time. Am I overrating him if I think he's been quite good for us? Like, is he a legit 2nd pairing guy right now?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 pm

Stars told me that they made a series of cost-cutting moves over the last couple years, they didn't want to spend any extra money on things they didn't want/need...Niskanen was definitely a dump...that doesn't mean that Shero didn't want him...one man's trash is another man's treasure..."salary dump" doesn't necessarily have to be a death sentence. I never bothered to ask them about Pardy, but he was so horrendous this past year that I can't imagine Buffalo was actually interested...Buffalo seems to try utliize #7, fringe d-men in various roles in their lineups, sometimes using them as swingmen...so I doubt they had to strong-arm them too much, but Pardy was just bad last year...like Niskanen and Woywitka before him, the Stars just can't find a solid guy to pair with Fistric...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:57 pm

Yeah, Pardy was on one of my keeper teams last year.... #lotterypick.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:58 pm

Zach6668 wrote:Yeah, Pardy was on one of my keeper teams last year.... #lotterypick.


Do you get points for hilariously bad turnovers?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:03 pm

lol, I wish... only G, A (and GA for team goalies)... took over a team a few years ago who abandoned it with no real assets outside of big contracts, tried a run with what I had, then had to rebuild, league was super hard to rebuild in (before some recent changes), so had reaaaaaally limited options last year, LOL. 20 teams, 23 person rosters, 20-player farms... it's a little deep.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Yeah I took over a team a year ago in a similar mess...(14 teams x 25 man-rosters, 35-player minor league team, 15-player junior team) and they finished dead last the year before, I took it over and missed the playoffs by like 2 points because Gionta, Backstrom and Backstrom, among others, got hurt down the stretch...

First step was to re-tool the goaltending stable behind Jimmy Howard and Niklas Backstrom, develop a little goaltending pipeline because goalies are hard to come by in that league and very valuable, so that was my main work...

Joe Cannata (Van), Jonas Gustavsson (Det), Matt Hackett (Min), Riku Helenius (TB), Niko Hovinen (Phi), Leland Irving (Cgy), Joonas Korpisalo (CBJ), Jason LaBarbera (Phx), Petr Mrazek (Det), Karri Ramo (Cgy), Harri Sateri (SJ), Alex Stalock (SJ), Andrei Vasilevski (TB), Brandon Whitney (Chi)

Much improved...my first order of business was to go after Braden Holtby before people realized how good he was and the guy wouldn't give him up...now it's too late or else I would have really been stacked...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby sjnhiils on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Fire0nice228 wrote:The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary

they had the highest average goals per game because of their run and gun style of offense. That doesnt work in the playoffs. You need players that are defensively responsible but can also score when the opportunity arises. There are not enough guys on the penguins like that. Maybe if the penguins had better wingers they wouldn't have to open it up as much to create their opportunities
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:34 am

sjnhiils wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary

they had the highest average goals per game because of their run and gun style of offense. That doesnt work in the playoffs. You need players that are defensively responsible but can also score when the opportunity arises. There are not enough guys on the penguins like that. Maybe if the penguins had better wingers they wouldn't have to open it up as much to create their opportunities


Care to look up their GAA last season? There was a slight let down down the stretch, that is all.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:18 am

Conversely, if the Penguins had worse wingers they wouldn't be inclined to open it up so much and return to manufacturing offense instead of trying to create it in a free-flowing, organic way...

This is fun.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:55 am

mikey287 wrote:People might be in for a bit of a surprise when they just dust their hands of Staal and think Sutter will step in and not miss a beat...Staal did some extraordinarily heavy lifting for us...I like Sutter, I hope he fits in here, I think he will, but he's not as good as Staal. Staal was a good two-way center playing on the third line...Sutter is a very good third line center. I don't think there's anything that Sutter does definitively better than Staal...

To think we're not going to miss a step is very optimistic...


I think this is all a very fine line. It's obviously foolhardy to think that Sutter will add the same dimension that Staal did, but by the same token it's not like we dropped from Staal to Vitale as out third line center. Staal had a rare combination of intangibles when you consider his size, offensive ability, defensive and PK abilities. You'll be hard-pressed to find any other team in the league with a third line center of that caliber. However, with Sutter as our third line center, we still have one of the best 1-2-3 punches in the league.

Sutter is no slouch by any stretch of the imagination. He's solid on faceoffs, a solid two-way & PK game, and can knock them in when necessary. So yeah, he's not going to do the job Staal did, but he is as solid of an addition that we can hope for.

The way I look at it is that you cannot just look at one move the Pens have made so far as a one on one comparison, but rather as a whole. Let's look at what we lost: Staal, Asham, Johnson and Michalek. What did we gain? Sutter, Glass, Vokoun and room for Despres or Morrow to enter the line-up.

Let's compare them as a whole:

The biggest loss is Staal, but Sutter steps in with solid necessary skills to have a potent third line. A drop off in certain areas yes, but the ability to have threatening third line none-the-less.

We lose Asham and gain Glass...a wash.

We lose Michalek and gain either Despres or Morrow. We can dmen who can potentially be better transitionally, offensively and at least as good of defensive skill.

We lose Johnson and gain Vokoun. This now adds a tandem that will make it harder for other teams to score on.

So all in all, you lose from one area and gain in another.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Luckybreak on Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:03 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:The way I look at it is that you cannot just look at one move the Pens have made so far as a one on one comparison, but rather as a whole. Let's look at what we lost: Staal, Asham, Johnson and Michalek. What did we gain? Sutter, Glass, Vokoun and room for Despres or Morrow to enter the line-up.

So all in all, you lose from one area and gain in another.


One of the most upbeat viewpoints expressed Hugo! Here's my super positive spin:

LOST - GAINED
Staal < Sutter (a player commited to playing shut-down role for less dollars)
Sullivan < Tangradi (adds size, grit, net-front PP and eliminates 80% of team turnovers through subtraction)
Asham < Glass (ummm... age)
Michalek < Despres (greater offensive upside, physicality and fits system)
Johnson < Vokoun (the only area Johnson wins is his left hook...)

*please bear in mind my focus on positivity - I'm not suggesting these outweigh any (unmentioned) negatives!*
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Fire0nice228 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:35 am

sjnhiils wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary

they had the highest average goals per game because of their run and gun style of offense. That doesnt work in the playoffs. You need players that are defensively responsible but can also score when the opportunity arises. There are not enough guys on the penguins like that. Maybe if the penguins had better wingers they wouldn't have to open it up as much to create their opportunities



Yeah, no crap. We turned into the Washington Capitals. Good two way players are hard to come by. Every player has deficiencies but in my opinion Kunitz, Dupuis, Sutter, and TK to an extent are good two way players that can score and not be a trainwreck in their own zone. I don't look for much scoring out of 4th liners so I'm not considering Vitale or any of those guys
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:13 am

Luckybreak wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:The way I look at it is that you cannot just look at one move the Pens have made so far as a one on one comparison, but rather as a whole. Let's look at what we lost: Staal, Asham, Johnson and Michalek. What did we gain? Sutter, Glass, Vokoun and room for Despres or Morrow to enter the line-up.

So all in all, you lose from one area and gain in another.


One of the most upbeat viewpoints expressed Hugo! Here's my super positive spin:

LOST - GAINED
Staal < Sutter (a player commited to playing shut-down role for less dollars)
Sullivan < Tangradi (adds size, grit, net-front PP and eliminates 80% of team turnovers through subtraction)
Asham < Glass (ummm... age)
Michalek < Despres (greater offensive upside, physicality and fits system)
Johnson < Vokoun (the only area Johnson wins is his left hook...)

*please bear in mind my focus on positivity - I'm not suggesting these outweigh any (unmentioned) negatives!*


Tangradi is not better than Sullivan, no matter the spin.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby steelhammer on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:44 am

Despres and Morrow could have better defensive skill than Michalek? Hahahahaha. Big laugh.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:51 am

I'm still miffed about that trade.
Even if the goal was to free cap space for Parise, ZM could have been traded afterwards.

It's not like the "assets" that Phoenix gave up were in great demand and wouldn't have been on the table days or weeks later.
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