(Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby the wicked child on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:39 pm

He had to trade Staal after he turned down the contract. The fact that we got what we did still amazes me.

Z likely wanted out. And with so many young guys looking to crack the lineup, he was happy to oblige.

It will be a different team w/o them, but let's at least wait until we see them on the ice to proclaim Shero screwed up.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby tfrizz on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:03 pm

Fire0nice228 wrote:The Penguins had the highest avg GOALS PER GAME of any team in the league (over 3.0 gpg), with Sid missing most of the year, and we need another 30 goal player (winger)? You guys are insane.

More statistical evidence; Pens were 17th in goals against per game. LA was 2nd. PHX 5th. NJD 9th. STL 1st. Funny enough, Pens gave up the 4th fewest average shots against per game, which says to me that the shots given were high quality and/or our goalie sucks (which I believe MAF does not).

Which needs fixed more?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary


It seemed like teams last season were a lot more reluctant to throw pucks at Fleury and try to crash the net. When they came on a rush, they almost always held and cycle... like they knew they could break the defense down completely by cycling for 30 seconds.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby tfrizz on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:07 pm

mikey287 wrote:People might be in for a bit of a surprise when they just dust their hands of Staal and think Sutter will step in and not miss a beat...Staal did some extraordinarily heavy lifting for us...I like Sutter, I hope he fits in here, I think he will, but he's not as good as Staal. Staal was a good two-way center playing on the third line...Sutter is a very good third line center. I don't think there's anything that Sutter does definitively better than Staal...

To think we're not going to miss a step is very optimistic...


If anyone thinks Sutter can/will just pick up where Staal left off, they'll be sorely disappointed. That said, I'm very happy to have Sutter as the Pens' 3rd line centre. He's very capable of handling that role, comes at a cap-friendly price, and won't demand the kind of "we need to get him more ice time" treatment like Staal did.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby tfrizz on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:09 pm

Zach6668 wrote:Hmm, ok. I know that was the rumor or the analysis at the time, but wasn't really sure if we knew it as fact. I'll trust you guys, though. Niskanen certainly needed a change of scenery at the time. Am I overrating him if I think he's been quite good for us? Like, is he a legit 2nd pairing guy right now?


The change of scenery has done wonders for him. He really stepped up the play when needed last season, but I'm not sure I'd say "legit 2nd pairing" just yet. I'd say he's kind of a tweener right now... very good for 3rd pairing but not quite good for 2nd pairing.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:58 pm

pens_srq wrote:
shmenguin wrote:he traded away maybe our 2 best penalty killers on the same night without a solid succession plan. we'll see how it plays out, but so far, it seems like a pretty careless sequence of decisions

Yeah and these guys were amazing vs Philly in the playoffs. They needed to change something. Maybe they think they have a clear view of the problems and there are factors that we aren't aware of. Regardless, I don't see Z as being irreplaceable by any stretch.


michalek had 2 years here where he was nothing short of incredible on the PK. whatever happened at the end of last year with the entire team wasn't reflective of his value in that role. the michalek trade definitely has "careless" potential. but like i said, we'll see. shero knows our prospects better than we do, and he knows what niskanen is capable of better than we do. but it's an uphill climb to justify that trade
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby sjnhiils on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:33 pm

[quote="mikey287"]Conversely, if the Penguins had worse wingers they wouldn't be inclined to open it up so much and return to manufacturing offense instead of trying to create it in a free-flowing, organic way...

This is fun.[/quote
Outside of neal,what other forward could you trade and get a top six forward back? Whenever a trade is mentioned on this board and someone mentions sending kennedy,cooke , dupuis or kunitz the other way for a top forward they are told they are going to have to include a lot more than that. The rangers,flyers and hurricanes have all added forwards while we lose staal and sullivan and add sutter. Next playoffs will be about as fun as this years
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby the wicked child on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:53 pm

Because those teams needed to address their offense, and we already scored a ton of goals... Call me crazy, but I don't think scoring goals was a problem... It was keeping the puck out of their own net.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:36 pm

sjnhiils wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Conversely, if the Penguins had worse wingers they wouldn't be inclined to open it up so much and return to manufacturing offense instead of trying to create it in a free-flowing, organic way...

This is fun.[/quote
Outside of neal,what other forward could you trade and get a top six forward back? Whenever a trade is mentioned on this board and someone mentions sending kennedy,cooke , dupuis or kunitz the other way for a top forward they are told they are going to have to include a lot more than that. The rangers,flyers and hurricanes have all added forwards while we lose staal and sullivan and add sutter. Next playoffs will be about as fun as this years


Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:34 am

mikey287 wrote:Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...


Couple things. If we added Bure, we'd be scoring an extra goal a game and our PP would be better. We'd have two nightmare lines teams would have to worry about. I'll leave it at that.

Do you feel we are an improved team over the one that won the cup (roster)? Maybe I misunderstood. I think we're worse in both roster and, obviously, performance. From Gonchar to Gill to Scuderi and Guerin and Feds and Talbot (yes, I think he is an important player when it counts). Just my opinion, but I think we have really degraded our roster since then. I'm looking at the 2009 squad. Tactical stuff is a separate argument to me. One with which I agree, as well.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby sjnhiils on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:37 am

mikey287 wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Conversely, if the Penguins had worse wingers they wouldn't be inclined to open it up so much and return to manufacturing offense instead of trying to create it in a free-flowing, organic way...

This is fun.[/quote
Outside of neal,what other forward could you trade and get a top six forward back? Whenever a trade is mentioned on this board and someone mentions sending kennedy,cooke , dupuis or kunitz the other way for a top forward they are told they are going to have to include a lot more than that. The rangers,flyers and hurricanes have all added forwards while we lose staal and sullivan and add sutter. Next playoffs will be about as fun as this years


Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...

Who is replacing sullivan on the power play? As much criticism as he received , at least he carried the puck across the blueline and set up many pp goals as well as having a good shot on the off wing. My whole point of mentioning the forwards was that if they cant bring back anything in a trade then how valuable are they? The concern i had with generating offense was that it should come naturally and from talent, not from the system. To say that because they led the league in scoring means that they are set on offense is misplaced. Maybe thats why the defense suffered, did you see a lot of forwards getting back? I can recall a number of games when the malkin line was -2,-3 for the night. How many times have malkin and crosby been paired together because when seperated their lines havent generated any offense? How many hockey experts said the penguins had to add a forward or two going into the playoffs last year? I guess LGP posters know better!!!
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:09 am

Also, one important thing. I actually think we get outplayed whenever we run and gun with teams these days and that includes teams like Ottawa or the Islanders. That's clearly an indication of our skill level.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:20 am

sjnhiils wrote:Who is replacing sullivan on the power play?


Crosby is a pretty good upgrade.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:32 am

Zach6668 wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:Who is replacing sullivan on the power play?


Crosby is a pretty good upgrade.


Crosby's not a righty :pop:
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Fire0nice228 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:51 am

Sarcastic wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...


Couple things. If we added Bure, we'd be scoring an extra goal a game and our PP would be better. We'd have two nightmare lines teams would have to worry about. I'll leave it at that




BRING ON THE 7-6 BARNBURNERS!!!!!1 :D Seriously though, I agree with Mikey and I've tried to post statistical evidence to back it up: The problem is defensively. Pens gave up a ton of odd man rushes all season long, even during the winning streak and all. It was a problem all season. Is that system or personnel problem or combo of both likely.

Malkin-Neal- x
Dupuis-Crosby-Kunitz

That is 2 nightmare lines if you can find a halfway decent winger for Malkin/Neal - No need for a 30 goal guy..Just someone to skate and get in on forecheck to create some space, decent enough hands to knock in some rebounds from time to time.. Wishing TK could get there this year..
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby steelhammer on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:52 am

Fire0nice228 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...


Couple things. If we added Bure, we'd be scoring an extra goal a game and our PP would be better. We'd have two nightmare lines teams would have to worry about. I'll leave it at that




BRING ON THE 7-6 BARNBURNERS!!!!!1 :D Seriously though, I agree with Mikey and I've tried to post statistical evidence to back it up: The problem is defensively. Pens gave up a ton of odd man rushes all season long, even during the winning streak and all. It was a problem all season. Is that system or personnel problem or combo of both likely.

Malkin-Neal- x
Dupuis-Crosby-Kunitz

That is 2 nightmare lines if you can find a halfway decent winger for Malkin/Neal - No need for a 30 goal guy..Just someone to skate and get in on forecheck to create some space, decent enough hands to knock in some rebounds from time to time.. Wishing TK could get there this year..


I don't think the Pens gave up that many odd man rushes last season. Not some crazy number at least. The times that I distinctly remember it being an issue, and not trying to pile it on, but it seemed like every time Paul Martin pinched in, the puck was going in the other direction shortly after. Still, I don't think the Pens had an odd man rush problem that was significantly greater than any other teams.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:40 am

Zach6668 wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:Who is replacing sullivan on the power play?


Crosby is a pretty good upgrade.


yeah...sullivan was already off the PP at the end of last year
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:43 am

I do have to wonder that the exact PP% was after Sullivan was demoted.
They finished 5th in the league during the regular season.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:13 am

columbia wrote:I do have to wonder that the exact PP% was after Sullivan was demoted.
They finished 5th in the league during the regular season.


sullivan was definitely valuable on the PP last year, but even if the % dropped significantly when sid took his place, sullivan was never getting his job back
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby steelhammer on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:00 am

You HAVE to put Malkin & Letang on the point next season. There is just no other way to work the PP with both Sid & Geno in the lineup. The opposition is going to be cheating over to that side of the ice all season so Letang could have a field day with wide open one-timers. Too bad he kind of sucks at those.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:29 am

sjnhiils wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Conversely, if the Penguins had worse wingers they wouldn't be inclined to open it up so much and return to manufacturing offense instead of trying to create it in a free-flowing, organic way...

This is fun.[/quote
Outside of neal,what other forward could you trade and get a top six forward back? Whenever a trade is mentioned on this board and someone mentions sending kennedy,cooke , dupuis or kunitz the other way for a top forward they are told they are going to have to include a lot more than that. The rangers,flyers and hurricanes have all added forwards while we lose staal and sullivan and add sutter. Next playoffs will be about as fun as this years


Those aforementioned forwards all probably have more value to us than they would on the trade market. Especially Kennedy and Dupuis, I have to believe. The team doesn't make it a point to trade NHL forwards for NHL forwards. So I'm not sure why that's a concern now. Sullivan wasn't that important to us, he can be adequately replaced by his replacement...Staal hurts certainly...but the improvement over the Cup team is that another elite level forward was added in Neal. Something we didn't have then. I'm not sure what the concern is. Adding Pavel Bure to this team wouldn't exactly solve anything...it's tactical and is really rooted on the other side of the red line...the concern with generating offense is strange, misplaced in my opinion...

Who is replacing sullivan on the power play? As much criticism as he received , at least he carried the puck across the blueline and set up many pp goals as well as having a good shot on the off wing. My whole point of mentioning the forwards was that if they cant bring back anything in a trade then how valuable are they? The concern i had with generating offense was that it should come naturally and from talent, not from the system. To say that because they led the league in scoring means that they are set on offense is misplaced. Maybe thats why the defense suffered, did you see a lot of forwards getting back? I can recall a number of games when the malkin line was -2,-3 for the night. How many times have malkin and crosby been paired together because when seperated their lines havent generated any offense? How many hockey experts said the penguins had to add a forward or two going into the playoffs last year? I guess LGP posters know better!!!


Bolded 1: Incongruent concepts.

Trade value =/= on ice value. I'm not sure that it needs a ton of explanation. But see: Craig Adams claimed off waivers at the '09 deadline.

Bolded 2: Philosophical differences.

Team created offense organically last year (scored a ton of regular season goals down the stretch, over 4 goals/gm in the playoffs) and got their ass handed to them. The harbinger games against the Isles was the start, the embarrassment against Philadelphia was the nail in the coffin. Very similar style to the Washington Capitals (one of the most unsuccessful franchises in sports)...is further explanation necessary?

The rest: I can't figure out what you're trying to say. Please clarify.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:09 pm

mikey, any chance of Despres or Morrow (if he sticks) to run the PP right away?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:29 pm

Sarcastic wrote:mikey, any chance of Despres or Morrow (if he sticks) to run the PP right away?


Morrow is much more offensively inclined than Despres. Neither will have the PP run through them right away...might be second unit players with limited responsibilities and safety valves in case there's trouble afoot. Whether either can handle those responsibilities above others on the team is a matter for the coaches to decide...might be used on the PP more in practice than in games for most of the first half of the season...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:32 pm

So what can we expect with the PP this year. Same crap where they pass the puck around and nothing really happens? I don't think I want to run the PP through Crosby, for the record. His spinoramas and weirdo passes to no one aren't cool. We need someone like, drumroll, Gonchar.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:43 pm

I can't answer that as I don't coach the team (fortunately or unfortunately)...also, I'm weary of my own ability to coach a power play...I tend to have power plays that are against the norm with wrinkles like the "end-line rover" that can be befuddling to some when explained on paper/whiteboard...I fear I overcoach some units and under-coach at other times...

So, I'm not sure if I'm the best power play strategist for a talented team such as this one...sometimes offensive players just need to be alloted a green light to create within a given set of guidelines. We have a fair mix of playmaking and players that are able to shoot, which is promising. Having everything crammed into one unit causes complications though...if they continue with a stacked one-unit system, they might be expected to play 90 seconds of a power play...how that affects even strength situations is yet to be determined, if it does happen...
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:56 am

mikey287 wrote:I can't answer that as I don't coach the team (fortunately or unfortunately)...also, I'm weary of my own ability to coach a power play...I tend to have power plays that are against the norm with wrinkles like the "end-line rover" that can be befuddling to some when explained on paper/whiteboard...I fear I overcoach some units and under-coach at other times...

So, I'm not sure if I'm the best power play strategist for a talented team such as this one...sometimes offensive players just need to be alloted a green light to create within a given set of guidelines. We have a fair mix of playmaking and players that are able to shoot, which is promising. Having everything crammed into one unit causes complications though...if they continue with a stacked one-unit system, they might be expected to play 90 seconds of a power play...how that affects even strength situations is yet to be determined, if it does happen...


I go back and forth with the PP issues of this team. Sometimes I feel it's the "too many cooks in the kitchen" scenario...it can make other players, i.e. Letang, gun-shy and feel they need to always get the puck to Sid or Gino instead of shooting when having the chance. If that's the case, it's more of the coach addressing the players that they need to take their chances when they're given.

Other times I feel some players are given positions on the PP because of who they are rather than using the player more suited for that area. My biggest gripe with the PP is when Bylsma gives Sid precedent over Malkin on the half-wall and places Malkin at the point. Malkin is clearly uncomfortable at the point and doesn't play strong there. The PP is much more potent when Malkin is on the half-wall over Sid, but...it's Sid's team, so Bylsma does what he does. It really baffles me. I think Sid needs to be down low; his strengths close around the net and along the boards behind the goalie are incredible and I think it does Sid a disservice to not use him there.
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