Paul Martin

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Re: Paul Martin

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:19 pm

Nizzy wrote:@Mikey

Martin Orpik
Letang Despres
Niskanen X1
X2

X = Engelland, Strait, Bortuzzo, the best 2 from camp.

If its not working, deadline deal for a top 4? What do you think?


All about comfort level. You got a rookie playing with Letang, when Letang is clearly a #1 d-man. So he's going to face some tough competition and Letang's positioning isn't stellar, it's his recovery ability that makes him effective...if Despres is reading the things that Letang is doing incorrectly, his natural instinct is going to be to slide over and protect Letang's backside, even though Letang's got it, it doesn't look like it from the other defensive partner spot sometimes...it could cause a lot of headaches for a rookie to learn with Letang I feel...it might be total genius and they might be perfect for each other and finish 1-2 for the Norris...but just at first glance, I feel that Despres learning with Letang might be too tough...that's a lot of minutes, tough minutes, for a young player to have...

I mean it's not bad. But again, you really want to make sure your rookies look comfortable and will be in comfortable position to succeed and grow. We might have to go that direction in fact. I'm sitting here trying to simulate a game with these pieces in my head and it makes me nervous. It's just gonna come down to what it looks like in training camp...and let's just hope our stable of D prospects come through...we really could use one surprise breakout right now...I get a strange inkling that it might be Dumoulin...
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby ffemtreed on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Froggy wrote:I thought the Martin/letang combo was solid until letang got hurt and then forgot how to play defense


The problem with that combo is that those two are by far our best puck carriers on D. Which if used properly can be an asset.

The problem is we don't have a true shutdown pair that won't get pushed around and creates some vision in front of our goalie. While Orpik is good along the boards he is atrocious in front of his own net.

WHoever said we don't have an identity on D is 100% correct. We have a bunch of good players who's skills don't all blend together correctly.

Letang -- Someone who can stay at home and clear the crease
Martin - Orpik
Nisky -- Despres or Engelland

That gives us someone on each pairing that can carry the puck and create the breakout pass, someone who is physical and responsible for house. The hard part is finding that #2 guy without giving up too much. I honestly don't see lovejoy here this season, even if he passes waivers on the way down, he won't pass them on the way back up. With Bortuzzo and Strait and some of the other guys Shero just picked up, Lovejoy's chances here are greatly diminished. Either him or Engelland have to go and Engelland brings a little more to the table and fits in better as a #6 7 guy.

Another option is to pair Despres up with Martin and see if he can handle the big minutes and learn from a vet like martin. Its hard to throw a rookie into that situation, but he played a bit last year and didn't look out of place.

Michalek gone is addition by subtraction to me, he played with pretty much every one of our other D last year and they all underachieved when paired with him. NOt saying he is a bad player, he just didn't fit in here expect on the PK, which he was great at for the most part.

Now who are you going to put with Letang on the PP ? I am not sold on having a forward on the point all season, it works for some teams because they don't have any other options, I hate being in that same place without options and then our 2nd PP unit will leave a lot to be desired unless Martin can improve a LOT there.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby offsides on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:51 pm

mikey287 wrote:-

So, it's going to be tough for Martin to find his place here. I wish I had more of an answer of what to do, but given how we finished the year last year, it's unclear who we are as a team...that last month and that playoff series wasn't us...that was Washington...so I have no answers without restructuring the whole system...I don't know what we're gonna come out and play like next year...


Couldn't agree more, not sure what to expect from this team as it is now. Hopefully HCDB has got a handle on making some meaningful changes.

EDIT: Remember when a LOT of people said Martin had to go no matter what but now he is OK? He was the biggest defensive bust ever. Funny how things change.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby steelhammer on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:34 am

What really disappoints me about Martin is his non-existent offensive ability. He was advertised as having such and that there was "more in the tank" since he was stuck in New Jersey. Whatever the case, his shot looks like someone who had dual shoulder reconstructive surgery. Additionally, he always seems to pinch at the wrong times (not in good communication with his teammates) and gets caught deep in the zone. He gets way overpaid for having almost no offensive upside. His defensive gaffes, while still there, are a little exaggerated around here, but his lack of offense and especially lack of PP ability is embarrassing.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby HockeyDaddy on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:21 am

Martin's defensive specialty is "stick on puck", that he is good at. I honestly think that Martin will have a better year this year. Fresh start, he wants to prove he is a good player, and the Penguins brass is supporting him. If the system is altered a bit to prevent Martin from worrying about constantly joining the offense, he will have a good year.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby offsides on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:25 am

Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:34 am

offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.
Last edited by Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby mikey287 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:34 am

offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


Logic comes in waves. This wave I believe was generated when we realized that Michalek was moved and we didn't get anything back.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby pugilist13 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:11 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.

Wow, something else we agree on. This is getting scary. A team that racks up 100 point seasons and runs rough shot over the rest of the league in the regular season. Then gets shredded like a cheap suit in the playoffs year after year, points to one thing. COACHING.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby meow on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:15 pm

pugilist13 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.

Wow, something else we agree on. This is getting scary. A team that racks up 100 point seasons and runs rough shot over the rest of the league in the regular season. Then gets shredded like a cheap suit in the playoffs year after year, points to one thing. COACHING.

Ahh, back to the old "Coaching is the problem" posts. Good times.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby CERV96 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:26 pm

At the current rate some of these D men are going for you would think more and more Martin may look like a bargan. Suter himself will now be out of Weber's shadow. Will be interesting to see how well he does without him. This will also tell us if he is worth the money.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby HomerPenguin on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:31 pm

mikey287 wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


Logic comes in waves. This wave I believe was generated when we realized that Michalek was moved and we didn't get anything back.


This, plus a good look at what the defense corps would look like if they dumped Martin and similarly got nothing.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby burghsportsguys on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:37 pm

offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


I'm not sure that happened.

There are people in the Martin camp, and people not in the Martin camp. Those in his camp have remained there and their thoughts haven't really changed.

Those that aren't his biggest fans are starting to look at this thing and are thinking "well, it looks like he's going to be here for better or for worse" -- given that, there is HOPE that he plays his best hockey, and the question becomes how can the Penguins best make that happen.

I'm personally not a fan of his after what I saw last year, especially in the playoffs. I would personally be pleased if they traded him away and allowed the large group of prospects (Despres, Morrow, Dumoulin, Strait, Bortuzzo, Sneep, Lovejoy, et al.) to battle it out in an attempt to win the two roster spots vacated by #4 and #7.

I really don't care if these kids struggle a bit on opening night, all I really care about is how they have grown after 82 games. I generally know what I'm going to get from Paul Martin - I think we can get more from that group of youngsters.

In short, those who don't like him that much aren't considering him a "pretty good d-man", they are just coming to realization that he will be on this team in 2012/13, barring unforeseen circumstances. In my mind, the WORST thing this team can do is to sign another veteran guy, and roll into the year with a top six of Letang, Orpik, Niskanen, Martin, Engelland, and random veteran. Give these kids a legit shot to make the team.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Froggy on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:04 pm

I think anyone who faults Martin for anything in the playoffs is grinding an axe. Dude was playing with a concussion.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Mongoose87 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:08 pm

The team defense was a concussion in the playoffs.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:10 pm

Froggy wrote:I think anyone who faults Martin for anything in the playoffs is grinding an axe. Dude was playing with a concussion.


If it was that bad, he shouldn't have been playing. He looked no worse than he looked the majority of the season. That said, singling out one member of the team in the playoffs for being bad would definitely be grinding an axe.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby IntangibleBeer on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:45 pm

A few things I think I think:
  • None of the D-men exactly covered themselves in glory vs. Philadelphia. The breakdown seemed complete and wide-spread.
  • One thing about Lovejoy is that he was just coming back from knee surgery. I expected a lot more from him, but it might have been too soon.
  • If we really are keeping Martin, I hope some sort of pairing can improve his play.
  • I, too, think the coaching style must change / adapt to the (considerable) available talent of the team. 1 and out in the last 3 years is simply unacceptable for a team of this caliber. Much as I like Bylsma, he has a lot of 'splainin' to do.

We really do need a shutdown defenseman.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:46 pm

ffemtreed wrote:Another option is to pair Despres up with Martin and see if he can handle the big minutes and learn from a vet like martin. Its hard to throw a rookie into that situation, but he played a bit last year and didn't look out of place.



This would be my thought. With the moves made and the fact that we have so many young dmen, atleast 1 (possibly rotating which one) should get some serious playing time. Of the current vets on the roster, it would seem that Martin would be the best to have teamed up with a young dman. If it doesn't work out and none of those guys can fill that spot, then you either move them to play with Engelland or look for players closer to the deadline.

I'd like to see:
Letang - Orpik
Martin - Despres
Nisky - Engelland

It's not a great top 4 by any stretch, but there is some solid depth when injuries happen or someone underperforms.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:51 pm

offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?


I'm not jumping on that boat just yet, but I think people are just trying to come to grips with the fact that it's looking like Martin will remain a Penguin...for now at least.

Martin is an excellent dman, but he played absolutely terrible last season! We can only hope that he turns his game around at this point.

EDIT: What I think really needs to happen is that Bylsma needs to adjust his system, not force guys into it.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby HockeyDaddy on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:13 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:Another option is to pair Despres up with Martin and see if he can handle the big minutes and learn from a vet like martin. Its hard to throw a rookie into that situation, but he played a bit last year and didn't look out of place.



This would be my thought. With the moves made and the fact that we have so many young dmen, atleast 1 (possibly rotating which one) should get some serious playing time. Of the current vets on the roster, it would seem that Martin would be the best to have teamed up with a young dman. If it doesn't work out and none of those guys can fill that spot, then you either move them to play with Engelland or look for players closer to the deadline.

I'd like to see:
Letang - Orpik
Martin - Despres
Nisky - Engelland

It's not a great top 4 by any stretch, but there is some solid depth when injuries happen or someone underperforms.


There will be injuries. I would not say that the Pens have solid NHL-ready depth. Aside from Lovejoy there would be no one that has much NHL experience. Strait and Bortuzzo ave very limited NHL experience and I don't believe the Pens have signed any journeymen AHL depth defensemen right. The point is, if three of the top 6 go down, it could be tough sledding until the lineup gets healthy again.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby cojac on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:50 pm

Despres-Letang
Orpik-Martin
Niskanen-Engelland
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Senka on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:17 am

NJ is a defensive team. He did well in a slow paced boring game. He cant skate with a run n gun team..

that being said, I hope its
Letang-Orpik
Nisky-Martin
Engell-Strait
Despres

Im not a strait fan. Def not a Martin fan. I was a big fan when we signed him.. not so much anymore.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:31 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?



In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.


Wait, you're serious? My God! Yes, just replace the coach for two bad regular season games and a playoff series. Talk about overreacting.

Bylsma is a hell of a coach. He's as successful as it gets. Unless you want to overreact some more and blame him for the Tampa series two years ago as well when their two beat players were sidelined.

Geesh guys, chill with the fire Bylsma stuff.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:50 am

pens2005 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?



In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.


Wait, you're serious? My God! Yes, just replace the coach for two bad regular season games and a playoff series. Talk about overreacting.

Bylsma is a hell of a coach. He's as successful as it gets. Unless you want to overreact some more and blame him for the Tampa series two years ago as well when their two beat players were sidelined.

Geesh guys, chill with the fire Bylsma stuff.

Actually, if you include Montreal, it's two bad playoff series'.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:04 am

pens2005 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?



In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.


Wait, you're serious? My God! Yes, just replace the coach for two bad regular season games and a playoff series. Talk about overreacting.

Bylsma is a hell of a coach. He's as successful as it gets. Unless you want to overreact some more and blame him for the Tampa series two years ago as well when their two beat players were sidelined.

Geesh guys, chill with the fire Bylsma stuff.


So you believe that it was all the players' faults for how the Philly series went down? There is no connection between the system and the terrible end to the regular season and the train wreck of a series vs Philly? No coincidence that Tampa Bay came back from 3-1? That Montreal made our D look terrible? That the teams in our division make us look silly during the season (including the Isles on far too many occasions)?

It's just the players who decide to suck when we play a team more than a couple games in a row or on a regular basis?

Interesting theory.
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