Paul Martin

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Senka on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:46 am

[rant]
It upsets me how Pittsburgh fans are. They are terrible losers. I know no one wants their team to lose, but to sit and call for your coach's job after a rough playoff? To hate on Parise and insist you no longer even want him, for taking more than a day to decide where he wants to spend a seventh of his life? People over react for nothing. Steeler and Penguin expectations are through the roof. I enjoy a good Pirate fan -- they dont call for people's jobs after a 5-game losing streak.

..You dont think that Dan & RS dont see how terrible Martin played last year? As a DMan, if I dont notice you throughout a game, usually that is a good sign. To be exposed multiple times a game, yeah -- they see it. But what can you do? You are paying the guy $5million dollars. A deal done by Shero -- not Bylsma. So Bylsma continues to play a bad player and you call for his job? He doesn't have many options unless he gets hurt.

ALSO, im the biggest Despres fan I know, and I dont see him ahead of Strait in this system... and those of you calling for him on the first line? I hope that is wishful thinking -- not honest opinion. No way you can give an AHL player top pairing minutes. He'll get destroyed more than shine in his first year if he played top minutes. Thats asking a lot. Id settle for an everyday roster spot.
[/rant]
Senka
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,986
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: RVA

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:48 am

Complaints about DB are way beyond Paul Martin's play.
Mongoose87
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,908
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: The breakfast table of TRIUMPH!

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Guinness on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:48 am

Bylsma didn’t make Letang lose his head and act like an idiot. He didn’t make Fleury incapable of stopping a beach ball rolling in molasses… uphill… He didn’t give Martin a concussion (that we’re aware of), and he didn’t make Crosby and Malkin pretty much disappear.

That being said, he apparently didn’t take control of the situation, either. There is absolutely no excuse for what happened in games two and three of that series – for Bylsma, and for all of the players.

I think Bylsma deserves to be under tight scrutiny this season, but I don’t think it makes sense to axe him after that series… if that is the metric then he and Shero should be fired, and the entire team traded.
Guinness
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,337
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:30 am
Location: At the pub

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:33 am

People were calling for Bylsma's job before the playoffs, citing commitment to defense, which was the problem in the playoffs.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,893
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 pm
Location: I'm sorry you feel that way

Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:56 am

bhaw wrote:
pens2005 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:Back on topic..........How did Martin go from a "get rid of at all cost" type of player to a "pretty good D man" type of player?



In my head, there is no way Bylsma should be the coach of this team tomorrow, i'm hoping that back under a competent head coach, he'll return to being a competent defenseman.


Wait, you're serious? My God! Yes, just replace the coach for two bad regular season games and a playoff series. Talk about overreacting.

Bylsma is a hell of a coach. He's as successful as it gets. Unless you want to overreact some more and blame him for the Tampa series two years ago as well when their two beat players were sidelined.

Geesh guys, chill with the fire Bylsma stuff.


So you believe that it was all the players' faults for how the Philly series went down? There is no connection between the system and the terrible end to the regular season and the train wreck of a series vs Philly? No coincidence that Tampa Bay came back from 3-1? That Montreal made our D look terrible? That the teams in our division make us look silly during the season (including the Isles on far too many occasions)?

It's just the players who decide to suck when we play a team more than a couple games in a row or on a regular basis?

Interesting theory.


Actually, 9 times out of 10 it is the players fault. That series last year was all on the players. Professional athletes shouldn't have 89 mental breakdowns nor can a coach simple say "stop having mental breakdowns" and expect it to work.

What happened in that flyers series was 99% on the players. You mean to tell me Bylsma could have printed Fleury from looking like the worksite goaltender in the universe in a few games? He isn't coaching pee wee here, there are only so many Thomas at that point in the season that a coach can do.

Gee, I wonder why coaches get canned every 2 months in the NHL? It's called overreacting.

Just saying the coach isn't to blame for that kinda stuff...for most stuff actualy, especially at this level. The coach becomes a problem when players don't want to play for the guy...which obviously isn't the case.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:00 am

What about the Tampa series? Montreal series? Inability to make in-game/in-series adjustments demonstrated time and time again? Failure to stop the Philly series from happening despite the obvious signs down the stretch? Its about a whole lot more than the Philadelphia series.
Kraftster
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,255
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Frolik

Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:06 am

Kraftster wrote:What about the Tampa series? Montreal series? Inability to make in-game/in-series adjustments demonstrated time and time again? Failure to stop the Philly series from happening despite the obvious signs down the stretch? Its about a whole lot more than the Philadelphia series.


Players, players, and players.

I'm sorry, I can't blame a single event that transpired in that Tampa or Flyer series on Bylsma.

Unless you suggest that Bylsma lace up the skates too, or heal concussions. When it boils down to it, the NHL coach doesn't do as much as you may think. If the stars don't perform on a star level in the playoffs, you'll lose. They didn't have any stars in the Tampa series, and in the Flyer series it was a total cluster**** of players acting like little babies when things didn't go their way.

And this whole notion that we were exposed by our division last year? I'd love to be a an NHL coach and get exposed by winning 51 regular season games.

Again repeated, give me a break.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Guinness on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:07 am

pens2005 wrote:
What happened in that flyers series was 99% on the players. You mean to tell me Bylsma could have printed Fleury from looking like the worksite goaltender in the universe in a few games? He isn't coaching pee wee here, there are only so many Thomas at that point in the season that a coach can do.


Wait, what?
Guinness
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,337
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:30 am
Location: At the pub

Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:11 am

[quote="Kraftster"Failure to stop the Philly series from happening despite the obvious signs down the stretch? [/quote]


Ok Coach Kraftster, let's hear it. Prevent the Flyer series from happening. What the sam hell could he have done differently at that point in the series? You have a bunch of whining 30 year olds on a team that was feeling sorry for themselves, whaddya do?

Again, this isn't pee wee hockey for Christ's sake.

That series was on the players.

Bench Martin? And play who?
Bench Fleury? And play who?
Bench Michalek? And play who?

Aside from benching guys, what can you do? Give a motivational speech to stopping acting like a 6 year old school girl?

It baffles me how much people can blame a coach for not going in-game adjustments, or "turning things around" in a level of hockey where the players get paid millions of dollars to do what they do. Coaches can only do so much at the NHL level.

Mike Babcock on the Columbus Blue Jackets still would finish dead friggin' last. Not saying a coach can't make a difference, but 90% of the time it's all on the players.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:12 am

Guinness wrote:
pens2005 wrote:
What happened in that flyers series was 99% on the players. You mean to tell me Bylsma could have prevented Fleury from looking like the worst goaltender in the universe in a few games? He isn't coaching pee wee here, there are only so many things at that point in the season that a coach can do.


Wait, what?


holy auto correct on my phone...my bad
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:28 am

pens2005 wrote:
Kraftster wrote:What about the Tampa series? Montreal series? Inability to make in-game/in-series adjustments demonstrated time and time again? Failure to stop the Philly series from happening despite the obvious signs down the stretch? Its about a whole lot more than the Philadelphia series.


When it boils down to it, the NHL coach doesn't do as much as you may think.


With that, I'm not going to bother trying to tell you what I think DB could have done differently because you clearly do not believe that there is anything that a coach can really do. Also, I certainly don't claim to know better what DB, so I'm not going to sit here and play office chair NHL coach. All I know is that most people who know hockey saw problems brewing down the stretch last season.

While I concede that you cannot infer that DB did nothing simply because the slide continued all the way into game 6, I do know that it is part of Dan Bylsma's job to prevent collapses like that from happening. His job. He, like players, must be held accountable for failing at his job. Anyone in any profession can make excuses when they fail at their job -- "What could I do? The judge wasn't going to side with us. The skill of the attorney does not really matter as much as you think, its all on just what the judge believes regardless of the arguments. What could I do? The student just didn't put in the effort. The skill of the teacher doesn't matter as much as you think, its all on the student and the parents." etc, etc.
Kraftster
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,255
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Frolik

Re: Paul Martin

Postby JoseCuervo on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:33 am

pens2005 wrote:Aside from benching guys, what can you do? Give a motivational speech to stopping acting like a 6 year old school girl?


Make changes to this "unbeatable system" in order to play to your players' strengths. Coaches need to be able to make adjustments. It's not a coincidence that this team's defense has gotten worse and worse as byslma has taken over. Not just personel, either. Just look at how orpik played under MT to how he plays now.

If it's all the players' fault, then it shows a lack of discipline. Again, pointing to byslma.
JoseCuervo
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,809
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:20 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: Paul Martin

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:37 am

pens2005 wrote:Aside from benching guys, what can you do? Give a motivational speech to stopping acting like a 6 year old school girl?


game 3. 1st period. down 3-1.

our players were acting like immature brats who had already lost the game/series. call a time out and lay down the law. flames should have been coming out of his god damn eyeballs.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 23,621
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 pm

Re: Paul Martin

Postby mikey287 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:07 am

Bylsma had lost the team midway through the series, probably right around the time the post directly is talking about...let's hope he has their attention back coming up this season...
mikey287
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,101
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF

Re: Paul Martin

Postby burghsportsguys on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:20 pm

pens2005 wrote:
Kraftster wrote:What about the Tampa series? Montreal series? Inability to make in-game/in-series adjustments demonstrated time and time again? Failure to stop the Philly series from happening despite the obvious signs down the stretch? Its about a whole lot more than the Philadelphia series.


When it boils down to it, the NHL coach doesn't do as much as you may think.

You are confusing yourself.

If the coach is largely irrelevant, then you shouldn't care at all if they fire Bylsma. It's all on the players, so why care about the coach. Any clown in a suit can stand behind them and watch them win or lose, since they aren't really doing much to affect the outcome.

Bylsma is a hell of a coach. He's as successful as it gets.

If it's 90% on the players, what makes him a helluva coach? That other 10% could just be noise in the data. What makes him "as successful as it gets"? Seems like the players are the ones being successful while he's just "being there", along for the ride. It's odd trying to reconcile your opinions that Bylsma is great, but at the same time note that coaching doesn't really have an impact.
burghsportsguys
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:01 pm

Re: Paul Martin

Postby wondermoose on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:48 pm

I'm not trying to downplay all ya'll's conversation about who is worse between Bylsma and the defense, but my only point will be that good/decent goaltending has been notably absent the past three springs. I love Fleury and I'm not interested in getting rid of him, but when the goalie **** the bed then everyone goes down. It makes the coach look bad and the defense worse when everything thrown at the net goes in. Now does that mean his defense and coach are failing? Maybe to a degree, but not to the extent to his sucktitude. The past three postseasons his save percentage has been .891, .899 and .834 and his GAA has been 2.78, 2.52 and 4.63.

I do not care not poorly a coach coaches or a defense defends because those numbers are simply not good enough.

But, I like Fleury. He's just got to turn this thing around before it gets that much worse.
wondermoose
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,106
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:18 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:01 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:People were calling for Bylsma's job before the playoffs, citing commitment to defense, which was the problem in the playoffs.


I still think Bylsma is the heart of the problem, but I've ceased to really discuss because I think it's pointless. DB isn't going anywhere right now. The Penguins would need a disastrous start of epic proportions for Bylsma to get the axe. If DB does get fired, it would have to be dependent on this coming post-season.

As much as I've attacked Martin, I think he's a good dman in the wrong system...and so was Michalek. Here's where the logic goes bye bye...The media has discussed the fact that the Penguins system was the reasoning for the poor play for Michalek and Martin. If you have $9M invested in two players who are supposed to make up your top-four, wouldn't you adjust the system?

We're not talking about a complete overhaul of the Penguins system, but it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's not like Martin and Michalek don't have the ability to do everything they need to do.

Outside of that, I still think Martin performed quite poorly...and I mean that in aspects having to do with things other than just the wrong system.
Hugo Stiglitz
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,314
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:36 pm

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:22 pm

mikey287 wrote:Bylsma had lost the team midway through the series, probably right around the time the post directly is talking about...let's hope he has their attention back coming up this season...


You cannot lose a game when up 3-0 AT HOME in the playoffs.

Its that simple. He got outcoached hard in the playoffs and other teams have too much film on his only system he can coach. He hasnt shown the ability to change his style ever.

He'll be gone by christmas.
Nizzy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,614
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:30 pm
Location: Steel City

Re: Paul Martin

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:41 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:People were calling for Bylsma's job before the playoffs, citing commitment to defense, which was the problem in the playoffs.


I still think Bylsma is the heart of the problem, but I've ceased to really discuss because I think it's pointless. DB isn't going anywhere right now. The Penguins would need a disastrous start of epic proportions for Bylsma to get the axe. If DB does get fired, it would have to be dependent on this coming post-season.

As much as I've attacked Martin, I think he's a good dman in the wrong system...and so was Michalek. Here's where the logic goes bye bye...The media has discussed the fact that the Penguins system was the reasoning for the poor play for Michalek and Martin. If you have $9M invested in two players who are supposed to make up your top-four, wouldn't you adjust the system?

We're not talking about a complete overhaul of the Penguins system, but it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's not like Martin and Michalek don't have the ability to do everything they need to do.

Outside of that, I still think Martin performed quite poorly...and I mean that in aspects having to do with things other than just the wrong system.


I am not defending or bashing Byslma on this because I really dont know the answer (the chicken or the egg question).

But in these last playoffs the Flyers would make an adjustment to their breakouts and defensive neutral zone coverage about 10 minutes into the period. Specifically in the first game or two they shifted to clogging up the Pens neutral zone center of the ice break out pass, forcing them to chip it off the glass to go get the puck..

When they had the puck they started with those break out passes and/or with a deep wing cutting straight across the middle to split our defense or tip it in deep. When the Penguins adjust to slowing up the dmen and hanging closer to the middle to stop the pass or dropping a center the Flyers then dumped and chased and were able to start cycles because they could get to the pucks easier.

Now my question is was it the Flyers adjustments that were so genius or was that HCDB can only adjust and game plan so much before the Pens lack of muscle and cycle on offense and muscle and stopping the cycle on defense/lateral quickness are just going to be exposed?

I mean that is why the playoff are so different in the NHL than the regular season, right?

Now - the other thing was the power play where the flyers exposed the Pens lack of lateral quickness. I feel HCDP should have adjusted somehow on this but again not sure what he could do but it could have certainly improved.

Remember when the Steelers had an insane Front 7 on their 3/4 defense 10 years ago. Teams were scared sh!tless to attack them. Then what happened? Cheatacheck figured out that Chad Scott, Dwayne Washington and Lethon Flower couldnt cover a fat man. It took one game and they were exposed and had to rebuild their secondary as teams just torched them. Granted Dick Lebau came back but they also had Ike Taylor, Troy P, Chris Hope in for them as starters. Was Lebau a beter coach? Of course but could he have stopped a WR from running right past every secondary player he would have had a few years earlier? Probably not.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,117
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Paul Martin

Postby pens2005 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:08 pm

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bylsma had lost the team midway through the series, probably right around the time the post directly is talking about...let's hope he has their attention back coming up this season...


You cannot lose a game when up 3-0 AT HOME in the playoffs.

Its that simple. He got outcoached hard in the playoffs and other teams have too much film on his only system he can coach. He hasnt shown the ability to change his style ever.

He'll be gone by christmas.


Whatever you say, overreacter.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,420
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:10 pm

pens2005 wrote:
Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bylsma had lost the team midway through the series, probably right around the time the post directly is talking about...let's hope he has their attention back coming up this season...


You cannot lose a game when up 3-0 AT HOME in the playoffs.

Its that simple. He got outcoached hard in the playoffs and other teams have too much film on his only system he can coach. He hasnt shown the ability to change his style ever.

He'll be gone by christmas.


Whatever you say, overreacter.


Overreacting would be asking for him to be fired after one game, one bad playoff series, or a bad year...

Please show me a situation where we were down and he changed things up? Lets wait to call a time out when the score is 5-7 philly with 30 seconds left...not when it was 4-3 and we kept losing the lead. Lets not change up Malkin when we had the last change and he was getting shutdown by a 18 year old. Oh wait, my whole team hasn't played defense the entire series, why not change the style?

Somehow the New York Rangers went 6-0 vs Philly, and we got it handed to ourselfs. Go look at the 10-3 win game. We sat back for a few seconds or two and stood our ground. Then next game, the series loss, was the same crap from games 1,2, & 3. No defensive responsibility.

-I'm not blaming Disco for Montreal, the defense was complete trash. Gogo pathetic, Gonch and Eaton were just "done", and we couldn't do anything different to get the puck in the net. (Even though all Philly did was play defense and won)
-I'm not blaming Disco for Tampa, too many Forward injuries.

-However, now that there's film on his system, he's getting destroyed. Philly's team was trash. All you had to do was shut down Giroux's line. We scored 4.3 goals per game vs philly and LOST. That's when you need to sit down after letting up 8 goals and say, "hey team, we play defense and we win" he couldn't do it.

GET TO ERR GAME

NORFF SUTH GO GOGOG OGOGGO

sick of it. Wish Randy Carlyle or Hartley (calgary coach) could have gotten a shot here.
Nizzy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,614
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:30 pm
Location: Steel City

Re: Paul Martin

Postby CERV96 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:28 pm

I was going to post about Paul Martin but nevermind.
CERV96
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,667
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:49 pm
Location: It's poop again!

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Durbano on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:38 pm

CERV96 wrote:I was going to post about Paul Martin but nevermind.

NPMR
Durbano
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:33 pm

Re: Paul Martin

Postby bh on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:47 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I am not defending or bashing Byslma on this because I really dont know the answer (the chicken or the egg question).

But in these last playoffs the Flyers would make an adjustment to their breakouts and defensive neutral zone coverage about 10 minutes into the period. Specifically in the first game or two they shifted to clogging up the Pens neutral zone center of the ice break out pass, forcing them to chip it off the glass to go get the puck..

When they had the puck they started with those break out passes and/or with a deep wing cutting straight across the middle to split our defense or tip it in deep. When the Penguins adjust to slowing up the dmen and hanging closer to the middle to stop the pass or dropping a center the Flyers then dumped and chased and were able to start cycles because they could get to the pucks easier.

Now my question is was it the Flyers adjustments that were so genius or was that HCDB can only adjust and game plan so much before the Pens lack of muscle and cycle on offense and muscle and stopping the cycle on defense/lateral quickness are just going to be exposed?

I mean that is why the playoff are so different in the NHL than the regular season, right?

Now - the other thing was the power play where the flyers exposed the Pens lack of lateral quickness. I feel HCDP should have adjusted somehow on this but again not sure what he could do but it could have certainly improved.

Remember when the Steelers had an insane Front 7 on their 3/4 defense 10 years ago. Teams were scared sh!tless to attack them. Then what happened? Cheatacheck figured out that Chad Scott, Dwayne Washington and Lethon Flower couldnt cover a fat man. It took one game and they were exposed and had to rebuild their secondary as teams just torched them. Granted Dick Lebau came back but they also had Ike Taylor, Troy P, Chris Hope in for them as starters. Was Lebau a beter coach? Of course but could he have stopped a WR from running right past every secondary player he would have had a few years earlier? Probably not.
Awesome post. You've hit the nail square on the head. Was he out-coached or were our players exposed and unable to cope with the Flyers changes? I think it was a little of both. We were definitely unprepared though, DB and the players. I feel that toward the end of the season a lot of teams were exposing our suspect defense and I saw not much adjustment at all from our coaching staff so in the end I lean a little more toward blaming HCDB plus it's easier to change coaches than overhaul a roster.
bh
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,515
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:48 pm

Re: Paul Martin

Postby Senka on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Hey. I hate Paul Martin. I hope they find a way to move him, or learns how to skate backwards...
Senka
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,986
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: RVA

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Antonio, npv708, Realist and 23 guests


e-mail