Can we talk about the Draft some more?

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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:25 am

Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.

I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


A lot of teams pass on Europeans. When you have 2 first round picks, you give yourself the opportunity to take a chance like that.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:01 pm

Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.


I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


It's not as if those teams were selecting other forwards; they picked d-men because they needed d-men. As opposed to the Pens who are already stockpiled with offensive d-men and have a strong need for an elite forward. When Forsberg plays in the NHL 1-2 years before Pouliot feel free to scratch your head.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby no name on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:04 pm

I don't know if Pouliot was the right choice he was ranked 17 by TSN and Forsberg was rated 3rd, and the Pens draft the best availible player SOmething isn't adding up. ANd there was so much talk of him and Jow Morrow playign together that the scouts couldn't see beyond the fact that they seen him play alot and decided to draft him.

But i guess we got lucky at our 22nd spot getting Maatta where he was ranked 10th but fell to the 22nd spot.

I know so little about the players being drafted beside Yakopov i didn't know any other guy out there. All i can go on is the articles i have read about the players we got and the ones i read on the players we passed up. I really liked Jacob Trouba, in the USA development program, seems like a brooks orpik type.

But the 3rd ranked player to the 17th?? But you kinda got to wonder what all the other clubs seen in him that he fell that far.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:05 pm

no name wrote:I don't know if Pouliot was the right choice he was ranked 17 by TSN and Forsberg was rated 3rd, and the Pens draft the best availible player SOmething isn't adding up. ANd there was so much talk of him and Jow Morrow playign together that the scouts couldn't see beyond the fact that they seen him play alot and decided to draft him.

But i guess we got lucky at our 22nd spot getting Maatta where he was ranked 10th but fell to the 22nd spot.

I know so little about the players being drafted beside Yakopov i didn't know any other guy out there. All i can go on is the articles i have read about the players we got and the ones i read on the players we passed up. I really liked Jacob Trouba, in the USA development program, seems like a brooks orpik type.

But the 3rd ranked player to the 17th?? But you kinda got to wonder what all the other clubs seen in him that he fell that far.


I think you nailed it with the first line as it seems the Pen's scouting system consists of mostly watching the players they have already drafted.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:29 pm

steelhammer wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.


I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


It's not as if those teams were selecting other forwards; they picked d-men because they needed d-men. As opposed to the Pens who are already stockpiled with offensive d-men and have a strong need for an elite forward. When Forsberg plays in the NHL 1-2 years before Pouliot feel free to scratch your head.


Well Forsberg may be in the NHL in 1-2 years, doesn't mean he will be succeeding at the NHL level in that timeframe. Many Euros (unless you are superskilled like Malkin/Ovi) who come directly over, without any AHL or CHL time, typically flounder for a couple of years in the NHL before they have any degree of success.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Zach6668 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:35 pm

no name wrote:I don't know if Pouliot was the right choice he was ranked 17 by TSN and Forsberg was rated 3rd, and the Pens draft the best availible player SOmething isn't adding up. ANd there was so much talk of him and Jow Morrow playign together that the scouts couldn't see beyond the fact that they seen him play alot and decided to draft him.

But i guess we got lucky at our 22nd spot getting Maatta where he was ranked 10th but fell to the 22nd spot.

I know so little about the players being drafted beside Yakopov i didn't know any other guy out there. All i can go on is the articles i have read about the players we got and the ones i read on the players we passed up. I really liked Jacob Trouba, in the USA development program, seems like a brooks orpik type.

But the 3rd ranked player to the 17th?? But you kinda got to wonder what all the other clubs seen in him that he fell that far.


Why are you so quick to trust some online scouting report or ranking, yet equally quick to dismiss the Penguins' talent evaluators' talents?
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Godric on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Zach6668 wrote:
Why are you so quick to trust some online scouting report or ranking, yet equally quick to dismiss the Penguins' talent evaluators' talents?


ISS is not just "some online scouting report or ranking"

:face:
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Zach6668 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:37 pm

steelhammer wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.


I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


It's not as if those teams were selecting other forwards; they picked d-men because they needed d-men. As opposed to the Pens who are already stockpiled with offensive d-men and have a strong need for an elite forward. When Forsberg plays in the NHL 1-2 years before Pouliot feel free to scratch your head.


Or maybe they weren't drafting on position and were drafting the players they deemed to be the best available at their draft spot?
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Godric on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:38 pm

Zach6668 wrote:Or maybe they weren't drafting on position and were drafting the players they deemed to be the best available at their draft spot?


:face:

ISS and other Hockey outlets had Pouliot ranked in the teens.... Forsberg was ranked 3rd
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Zach6668 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:38 pm

Godric wrote:
Zach6668 wrote:
Why are you so quick to trust some online scouting report or ranking, yet equally quick to dismiss the Penguins' talent evaluators' talents?


ISS is not just "some online scouting report or ranking"

:face:


That's fair, but it's not gospel. It's not fact. It's the collective opinion of their scouts.

Just because the Penguins scouts and management disagree with them, why are the Penguins immediately the ones who are incorrect?
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby npv708 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:01 pm

I'm by no means a draft expert, but I agree with the consensus that Pouiliot, while a strong pick, may have not been the best pick.

There's three players I think would've been better picks.

- Forsberg
- Grigorenko
- Teravainen
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:03 pm

pens_CT wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.


I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


It's not as if those teams were selecting other forwards; they picked d-men because they needed d-men. As opposed to the Pens who are already stockpiled with offensive d-men and have a strong need for an elite forward. When Forsberg plays in the NHL 1-2 years before Pouliot feel free to scratch your head.


Well Forsberg may be in the NHL in 1-2 years, doesn't mean he will be succeeding at the NHL level in that timeframe. Many Euros (unless you are superskilled like Malkin/Ovi) who come directly over, without any AHL or CHL time, typically flounder for a couple of years in the NHL before they have any degree of success.


The last Swedish forward who was the #1 ranked european skater going into the draft was Nicklas Backstrom. The other two recent top-ranked Swedish players were Adam Larsson and Viktor Hedberg. Seems like the top ranked European Swedes do pretty well and do so rather quickly.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Streaks House on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:29 pm

steelhammer wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Not taking Forsberg makes no sense. Rated higher by the entire world and while neither player is ready now, Forsberg would have helped to fill a giant weakness in the system. There isn't an argument for not taking him. I guess you could argue that there is something they saw that others didn't see, but I think given their recent history its more likely that there is something there that the Pens didn't see.


I don't profess to know much about the draft. That's the speciality of Jesse Marshall and Michael Farkas, and I generally defer to them for answers to my questions. But, logically speaking, isn't it a bit odd that 10 teams passed on a player who was ranked so highly by the ISS? We're not talking about a sleeper who was taken off the board and panned out. We're talking about a player who was ranked very highly and dropped 8 spots. That surely isn't a definitive answer to how he will develop -- but it says a lot that so many teams felt that he wasn't nearly as valuable as his ISS ranking suggested. Heck, he's not even playing in the top-tier Swedish league...


It's not as if those teams were selecting other forwards; they picked d-men because they needed d-men. As opposed to the Pens who are already stockpiled with offensive d-men and have a strong need for an elite forward. When Forsberg plays in the NHL 1-2 years before Pouliot feel free to scratch your head.


Well Forsberg may be in the NHL in 1-2 years, doesn't mean he will be succeeding at the NHL level in that timeframe. Many Euros (unless you are superskilled like Malkin/Ovi) who come directly over, without any AHL or CHL time, typically flounder for a couple of years in the NHL before they have any degree of success.


The last Swedish forward who was the #1 ranked european skater going into the draft was Nicklas Backstrom. The other two recent top-ranked Swedish players were Adam Larsson and Viktor Hedberg. Seems like the top ranked European Swedes do pretty well and do so rather quickly.


Swedes seem to be the "safest" bet in terms of Euros recently. Not all Euro players are the same. Big difference between the Scandinavian trained players versus the Eastern Bloc trained players.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby SteelCityFan on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:32 pm

npv708 wrote:I'm by no means a draft expert, but I agree with the consensus that Pouiliot, while a strong pick, may have not been the best pick.

There's three players I think would've been better picks.

- Forsberg
- Grigorenko
- Teravainen


:thumb:
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Mongoose87 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:48 pm

You really can't judge a draft for at least three more years.
Last edited by Mongoose87 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:52 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:You really can't judge a draft four at least three more years.


Apparently you can.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Lets be honest though. Drafting defensive players when we already have a slew of prospects does seem silly if the plan is to just trade them for forwards? I mean why not just draft forwards to begin with?

1. They take fewer years to develop and get to the NHL
2. We were drafting in the 8 spot not 30.
3. While I understand you can potentially trade for a better player all things being equal because of how defensemen are valued in the league. It still does not make sense to me to try to package 3 or 4 prospects and a draft pick for one Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan when we just could have drafted 4 really good forwards to play on the 2nd and 3rd lines to balance out that we already have 3 or 4 other d prospects who should by all accounts play well starting in a year or two.
4. I really would not like to waste a year of Crosby and Malkin in their mid twenties like next year if we are not able to fill out the roster enough to be actual cup contenders.

Just saying - stockpiling d guys was fine for me up until this year. Now we just have a gluttony of them and need at least 1 forward on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th line if we want to win the cup, not to mention at least one real true solid defensive standout on the blue line. And will need those spots AND replacements for Kunitz, Cooke, Kennedy soon.

Not too mention we cant trade all of our d prospects. Our current crop stunk it up and lost Michalek who at least had reasonable stats in the playoffs and Orpik and Engellend probably are not in the long terms as well as some other depth guys.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Nizzy on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:13 pm

Godric wrote:Can someone please convince me that not taking Filip Forsberg was the right decision :pop:


I'm going to really be upset if the Caps have Ovechkin - Backstrom - Forsberg as their top line with Forsberg netting 25-30 knowing we could have had him.

Mikey said whats wrong with another Letang in Pouliot (even though he might not be as physical) well we have no forward depth and I believe Bennett will be a bust.

Forsberg was the number 2 overall forward, and number 3 overall prospect in the draft. We could have had him at 8. You take the Best Player Available. Not another PMD when we have 4 or 5 in the system already.

Just a bad move in my opinion. Of course its possible for Forsberg to be a bust, even though its extremely unlikely as the 3 best player available. Pouliot could be insanely good, but I doubt it.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Nizzy on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:16 pm

Hey Geno want to play along a fellow 6'3" C/RW Russian winger for the next decade?

Grigorenko

herp derp, draft another 5'11" non-physical puck moving defenseman

FORE DE SISTEM BILESMAH.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:42 pm

Insert funnel, pour cement.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby shmenguin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:13 pm

i don't know anything about forsberg, the guy we picked or anyone else in the draft (who here really does?), but conceptually, i don't like what shero did. of course he's the boss for a reason, but looking at it plainly, our forward depth in the organization is nothing short of atrocious, and our defensive depth is crazy good. picking a defenseman (and reaching for the one you pick at that) seems like a dubious move. it could end up working out, but at some point it would be nice to be able to have some decent forwards available for promotion when our team gets ravaged by injuries.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby topshelf on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:26 pm

Remember when Angelo Esposito was supposedly the real deal? These experts have him ranked as #10 and #11 in the 2007 draft:

http://insidecollegehockey.com/7Archives/Draft/2007/predraft_ranks0536.htm

What's he doing now?


How about the 2005 entry draft? Check out some of the names that the ISS had has highly ranked prospects:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7785/iss_top15_prospects_for_the2005_nhl_draft/

Benoit Pouliot ranked second? Gilbert Brule ranked higher than Bobby Ryan or Anze Kopitar? How about Marek Zagrapan ranked 9th overall?


The point I am trying to make is that the draft is a crap shoot. Some of the most coveted players never pan out (Alexandre Daigle, anyone?), and some that many teams over looked end up being superb picks (Henrik Zetterberg going 210th overall).

Those of you who are complaining and whining that we didn't get Forsberg, calm down and wait a few years and see what happens. The guy has just as much of a chance as becoming an Angelo Esposito as he does an Anze Kopitar. If drafting players were as easy as sitting down at your computer, printing off a sheet of the highest ranked players, and then walking up to the stage to announce your pick, we'd all be in the running for an NHL career. Maybe I overlooked it, but did anyone here get a phone call from the Montreal Canadiens when the GM spot opened up? Call me crazy, but I'll trust Shero's judgement before I trust an internet source (or a forum poster).

If you are truly that ate up over us not getting Forsberg (which I don't think many are, I think it's more or less boredom and/or channeling aggression from us not getting Parise), bookmark this thread and watch the guy's career. If he is tearing it up in the NHL in a few years, come back and flame away.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:56 pm

I am not so sure as a fan I would be real upset if the pens took a chance on a forward at the 8 spot and it failed... At least they took a shot. We can never have any forward propects if we don't take a chance or two.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Rylan on Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:26 pm

:lol:
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:49 pm

topshelf wrote:Remember when Angelo Esposito was supposedly the real deal? These experts have him ranked as #10 and #11 in the 2007 draft:

http://insidecollegehockey.com/7Archives/Draft/2007/predraft_ranks0536.htm

What's he doing now?


How about the 2005 entry draft? Check out some of the names that the ISS had has highly ranked prospects:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7785/iss_top15_prospects_for_the2005_nhl_draft/

Benoit Pouliot ranked second? Gilbert Brule ranked higher than Bobby Ryan or Anze Kopitar? How about Marek Zagrapan ranked 9th overall?


The point I am trying to make is that the draft is a crap shoot. Some of the most coveted players never pan out (Alexandre Daigle, anyone?), and some that many teams over looked end up being superb picks (Henrik Zetterberg going 210th overall).

Those of you who are complaining and whining that we didn't get Forsberg, calm down and wait a few years and see what happens. The guy has just as much of a chance as becoming an Angelo Esposito as he does an Anze Kopitar. If drafting players were as easy as sitting down at your computer, printing off a sheet of the highest ranked players, and then walking up to the stage to announce your pick, we'd all be in the running for an NHL career. Maybe I overlooked it, but did anyone here get a phone call from the Montreal Canadiens when the GM spot opened up? Call me crazy, but I'll trust Shero's judgement before I trust an internet source (or a forum poster).

If you are truly that ate up over us not getting Forsberg (which I don't think many are, I think it's more or less boredom and/or channeling aggression from us not getting Parise), bookmark this thread and watch the guy's career. If he is tearing it up in the NHL in a few years, come back and flame away.


Well, I think the point is not players though (although a bit sure because of the rankings) but more positional in the argument as well. As I said above you just cant trade prospects and get a quality player back straight up. It takes normally 2 and a draft pick unless the player is developed enough (Goligoski) but even then we are looking at 3 - 5 years before we have enough guys with enough experience to make that happen (assuming one young gun is good enuogh to take over for a traded young guy). Not only that we have no real trade chips at the NHL level And lastly most of the guys we have drafted are of the same mold.

The problem I have is in the short term. Not only next year but after next season we could have needs at:
1st line LW, 1st line RW with Crsoby
2nd line LW with Malkin
3rd LIne LW, 3rd line RW
4th line C

assuming Vitale sticks we would have to trade too many bodies to get a body back. And even with a new CBA UFA's cost a lot more. The myth of anyone wanting to play here at a discount is over.

Now, a lot of this could have been solved by having some solid forward picks. Now if we need to move quickly so we dont wast prime Crosby and Malkin years we need to dump 2 for 1 at the very least. The math just doesnt add up.
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