Lockout

[Tim Thomasen]

I'll definitely still watch a shortened season

When someone doesn't go to games, or buy merchandise or really pay no attention to the team as a result of the lockout that's giving up on them. That's very important to this team given how tedious our fanbase is to begin with.

?

And, there are a few tedious fans here, but I'm not sure the whole fanbase is tedious.

The NHL is a gate driven league. Although it depends on fans watching the games on TV, it relies more on fans actually buying tickets and attending games. When people on here saying there not going to the games that badly hurts the Pens who have a tedious fanbase.

I have heard on this board for years now that were not the best fans in sports that the only reason why people come to games is to see the one (not two) stars and that's it and when they leave well go back to 9,000 a game, and that were very bandwagon. Well this lockout gives people in this an excuse not to come back because the frustration they have with both sides.

[Defence21]

BOGO shirts at both PensGear locations.

I got their free one right here.

At this point, I hate to say it, but I have zero interest in giving the NHL or its player even a dime out of my pocket. Both sides are ridiculous.

I can't say I share that view. Maybe its because that like you i'm angry at both sides, but just not angry or emotional enough like everyone else here to just give up on the team.

I don't think anyone here is "giving up on the team." I'll definitely still watch a shortened season, but I will not purchase any tickets or merchandise.

I'm definitely not giving up on the team. Hell, I'm writing as much as I have in the last year over at FF, despite the lack of hockey-related stories. I love the Penguins, and I love the NHL. I just refuse to financially support a league that is involved in a pissing match over division of funds, meanwhile confesses to losing $18-$20 million per day without games. Once hockey returns, I'll be all over it -- but I might still refuse to spend my hard earned money on a league that's providing to care very little, if at all, for its fans.

[mikey287]

I doubt a U.S. Federal professional negotiator would be too keen on negotiating with a terrorist...not in the handbook...

Yeah, must be so hard to appease Jeremy Jacobs.

Oops, I forgot to put on my brain slug this morning.

There we are...corporations are bad and evil and I could live without their stupidness...workers are good and deserve any profits an evil business might take in. I hope they run the editorial I sent in to Трудовая Россия in the next issue.

[MRandall25]

That's not what I've been saying, and you're overreacting.

[Gaucho]

And how is the other extreme any better?

[Tim Thomasen]

BOGO shirts at both PensGear locations.

I got their free one right here.

At this point, I hate to say it, but I have zero interest in giving the NHL or its player even a dime out of my pocket. Both sides are ridiculous.

I can't say I share that view. Maybe its because that like you i'm angry at both sides, but just not angry or emotional enough like everyone else here to just give up on the team.

I don't think anyone here is "giving up on the team." I'll definitely still watch a shortened season, but I will not purchase any tickets or merchandise.

I'm definitely not giving up on the team. Hell, I'm writing as much as I have in the last year over at FF, despite the lack of hockey-related stories. I love the Penguins, and I love the NHL. I just refuse to financially support a league that is involved in a pissing match over division of funds, meanwhile confesses to losing $18-$20 million per day without games. Once hockey returns, I'll be all over it -- but I might still refuse to spend my hard earned money on a league that's providing to care very little, if at all, for its fans.

And believe me you have a legit gripe. The one thing I hate about the NHL and the PA is neither side has ever been able to work together and achieve labor peace. There hasn't been labor peace achieved in 20 years with three lockouts and a short strike in 1992. Hell if it wasn't for PA head Alan Eagleson having a very friendly relationship with the owners for all those years, we would of had lockouts or strikes in the 70's and 80's as well.

But in my opinion the people who run all the leagues care very little about the fans. Granted you could make a case that the NHL should care alot about the fans since they rely on them showing up to games to make money. But regardless of my feelings towards Bettman, Daly the owners not named Lemieux i'm a Pens fan and not a NHL fan. I support what my team is doing and if there doing alright then i'm alright with them. I think that's why i'll support this team when this is all over.

[Steve]

I hear ya Tim T - and I guess I'm just venting. In this lockout, I go through stretches where I really don't care, to being angry. Right now I'm kind of mad that we're going through this yet again.

I've really wondered how other fans are going to react once the lockout is over (i guess it depends on how long it goes) - and how I'm going to react. When I was little (this is during the 70's haha) - the Pirates and Pens were my teams. And this was during the Steelers super bowl era. I was one of those kids that went to the games with a glove, and was into every pitch - and hung around after the game to get autographs. But I was dissapointed with yet another baseball strike, and I just lost interest after that. I don't think I chose to, it just happened - and I don't think it would have happened if those work stoppages didn't occur. Since then, I've attended roughly 5 games, and most were work events or organized by friends. I honestly can probably only name about 5 players in MLB right now.

Part of that is that the Pirates have been so bad I guess - but right now i have the same sour taste in my mouth about the NHL. Maybe it goes away as soon as the puck drops, but I don't think so - especially if we lose the entire season again. I guess we'll see how long this lockout lasts. But this one feels different than the one we just had - I don't think fans are coming back as quick as they did, I think they lost some permanately. I think many will come back, but they won't invest (and I'm not talking just $$$) as much into this league for a while. I think I'll fall into the latter. We'll see I guess.

[tfrizz]

The only difference in Staal and Sutter is a little offence. Sutter is a defenisve standout just not the hands Staal has. But concider a 2 mill. price tag to Staals 6 million offer Shero gave him... Well honestly i think that money is better spent on a winger for Sid.

just "a little" offense?

eeehhhhhh

I think you are going to be surprised at how talented Sutter is offensively. He's no slouch.

I admit i am no Sutter expert, but i think Staal can put up 30 a year on a first or second line with real talent around him and on playing first powerplay unit. He will get better stats than he got hear. So i do place him a good bit better offence talent than Sutter. If Sutter can reach 20 goals i will be estatic.

In the 2009-10 season, Sutter put up 21g + 19a in 72 games with Carolina. In the last two season, he's posted 17+15 and 14+15 which is pretty respectable for a 3rd liner.

[yubb]

I lost interest in baseball after one of the strikes as well. I just never watched again.

For hockey it won't be the same. I love the sport. I don't love just watching either; I love playing too. So this is only an inconvenience for me. Once it comes back I'll go to games and watch on TV. Local bars will make money off me watching the games there. I thought about not buying jerseys, but realized that I pay a guy in China $25 to sell me a knock off, so I don't think the NHL or players see a dime of that.

[shmenguin]

20 is usually impossible for someone without any power play time, playing on the 3rd line. 15 (over a theoretical 82 game season) is the benchmark for him, cooke and kennedy.

[mikey287]

This thread shows that the path of least resistance is the best one - at least for those on the union side. There's no good, there's no compromise, there's just spin and ignorance of facts. Rarely is a point backed with anything but assumptions and widely-believed myths. The league could sit there and make 30 decent or better proposals to the union's 0...but as soon as the union makes one crappy one, it's like "see, all along the union was trying so hard...and blah blah blah blah blah blah..." It's beyond argument, it's beyond debate...actually, no, it's the opposite. It never got there.

Earlier in the thread, it seemed innocuous enough...two sides debating over issues...but as the thread has progressed, you can tell that it's just "I'll only see what I want to see and respond to that" ...so, there's nothing more to do than just answer it in kind. The pro-union propagandists don't need sources, facts, league history, common sense principles, or anything to be on their side for them to make a case...so, why should I be saddled with such trouble...

tfrizz, to his credit, makes a really good effort. At least it's backed in some form of reality. Whether I agree or disagree, that's what a message board is for. But at least there's recongizable rationale behind it, which I can respect. But some people, just head down, straight ahead, fingers in ears, nonsense factories...

It doesn't matter what side you're on...I'll sit here for the next 2 years and talk turkey about the league's finances...but when you make a post and someone responds with "you really think fans are going to games to see the owners?" it's just mind-numbing what educated-enough-to-use-a-computer people can come up with sometimes...

So like I said, way easier doing it that way...I'll get the ball re-rolling...

The mediators left the cause because the players are too stubborn and short-sighted and some of them smell funny...

[Tim Thomasen]

I hear ya Tim T - and I guess I'm just venting. In this lockout, I go through stretches where I really don't care, to being angry. Right now I'm kind of mad that we're going through this yet again.

I've really wondered how other fans are going to react once the lockout is over (i guess it depends on how long it goes) - and how I'm going to react. When I was little (this is during the 70's haha) - the Pirates and Pens were my teams. And this was during the Steelers super bowl era. I was one of those kids that went to the games with a glove, and was into every pitch - and hung around after the game to get autographs. But I was dissapointed with yet another baseball strike, and I just lost interest after that. I don't think I chose to, it just happened - and I don't think it would have happened if those work stoppages didn't occur. Since then, I've attended roughly 5 games, and most were work events or organized by friends. I honestly can probably only name about 5 players in MLB right now.

Part of that is that the Pirates have been so bad I guess - but right now i have the same sour taste in my mouth about the NHL. Maybe it goes away as soon as the puck drops, but I don't think so - especially if we lose the entire season again. I guess we'll see how long this lockout lasts. But this one feels different than the one we just had - I don't think fans are coming back as quick as they did, I think they lost some permanately. I think many will come back, but they won't invest (and I'm not talking just $$$) as much into this league for a while. I think I'll fall into the latter. We'll see I guess.

Why weren't you a big Steelers fan back then if you don't mind me asking? Never liked the team/fan or you just not that big into football?

But hey you have a legit gripe, you get angry when you see a league and a PA for years never getting along and always having a strike or lockout to achieve a CBA. It's never fun to see any of this go down, even if it's for the good of the league.

Like I said above it hurts not having hockey, that's the sport I live and breathe. I was really looking forward to attending some road game this year since I went to none last year because of money.

And once football is over, i'll have no local sport to follow (I saw local because i'll still have the EPL to watch on TV). I do like the Boston Celtics, but not much of a fan to pay $179 for LP or travel to see them unless I have a dirt cheap ticket. Hell I attended a game last year where they played Cleveland and despite the C's almost blowing a 19 point lead in the 4th quartter, I was most concerned with what the Pens were doing againist Tampa (they won in OT) than the actual game i'm attending.

[shmenguin]

it's funny...i think it finally sunk in to people that supervillain bettman is just a spokesman for his bosses. so scattering to find the new face of evil, jacobs becomes the predictable target...the same guy whose role in the 2004 lockout helped rescue the league from the depths of irrelevancy. yeah - screw that guy and his historically correct assessments of league finances!

[meow]

The only difference in Staal and Sutter is a little offence. Sutter is a defenisve standout just not the hands Staal has. But concider a 2 mill. price tag to Staals 6 million offer Shero gave him... Well honestly i think that money is better spent on a winger for Sid.

just "a little" offense?

eeehhhhhh

I think you are going to be surprised at how talented Sutter is offensively. He's no slouch.

I admit i am no Sutter expert, but i think Staal can put up 30 a year on a first or second line with real talent around him and on playing first powerplay unit. He will get better stats than he got hear. So i do place him a good bit better offence talent than Sutter. If Sutter can reach 20 goals i will be estatic.

In the 2009-10 season, Sutter put up 21g + 19a in 72 games with Carolina. In the last two season, he's posted 17+15 and 14+15 which is pretty respectable for a 3rd liner.

Staal is also going to go up against better defensive players since he'll be on a higher line. I will admit I have never been a Staal fan, but when I try to look at this trade from an unbiased view, I still love it for the Penguins.

[Tim Thomasen]

it's funny...i think it finally sunk in to people that supervillain bettman is just a spokesman for his bosses. so scattering to find the new face of evil, jacobs becomes the predictable target...the same guy whose role in the 2004 lockout helped rescue the league from the depths of irrelevancy. yeah - screw that guy and his historically correct assessments of league finances!

But has it sunk into the minds of the players though? Just the other day Ryan Malone said that this is Gary's lockout. Which is funny because like you, I knew that this is the owners pushing the lockout. People think Bettman and Bettman only is driving this, despite the fact that just like Fehr is the voice of the PA, Bettman is the voice of the owners.

[RisslingsMissingTeeth]

Someone wrote this in an article that may have been linked here or I found it on my own. I will paraphrase since I don't have it in front of me, but it outlines the massive mistakes that were made in this lockout from which we will probably never recover:
- The NHL lost credibility when it proposed the 43% from 57% revenue split. That was so ludicrous, after just saying that they had a lot of hope that an agreement could come quickly, it destroyed all chances for trust and showed they were not negotiating in good faith.

- The NHLPA lost credibility when it never countered the owner's 50-50 offer but rather came up with 3 new plans and no data to back them up. This showed the owners that Fehr wasn't interested in negotiating but rather making them bow to him. You don't play the dominance card to billionaires when you're just some chump. it was disrespectful. The owners were never going to negotiate again after that move.

Yes, I know I am Captain Obvious. I guess my point in typing this is to both reiterate how both parties are supremely stupid and to further point out that this won't get settled with the 2 key people still involved. I think decertification is coming but I also think the players have no idea how very dangerous this will be to them.

[Bathgate]

Recall last year when the PA blocked the owners’ common-sense and seemingly innocuous plan to shift Winnipeg to the Western Conference. They called it Fehr’s “shot across the bow,” a sort of warning to the owners that the PA intended to have a say in every aspect of league operations. I suspect that this maneuver by Fehr has contributed to the owners’ hardlinedness (if there is such a word). It’s their league. They own the teams and take most of the risks. It’s about money, but it’s also about who controls the league.

[Tim Thomasen]

Recall last year when the PA blocked the owners’ common-sense and seemingly innocuous plan to shift Winnipeg to the Western Conference. They called it Fehr’s “shot across the bow,” a sort of warning to the owners that the PA intended to have a say in every aspect of league operations. I suspect that this maneuver by Fehr has contributed to the owners’ hardlinedness (if there is such a word). It’s their league. They own the teams and take most of the risks. It’s about money, but it’s also about who controls the league.

Although they did shoot that proposal down because Fehr wasn't going to bown down to the league, part of me was glad thay shot that proposal down because I hated it. I hated how many more time we were going to play our divisional opponents and I hated the playoff system that came with it.

[Steve]

Why weren't you a big Steelers fan back then if you don't mind me asking? Never liked the team/fan or you just not that big into football?

But hey you have a legit gripe, you get angry when you see a league and a PA for years never getting along and always having a strike or lockout to achieve a CBA. It's never fun to see any of this go down, even if it's for the good of the league.

Like I said above it hurts not having hockey, that's the sport I live and breathe. I was really looking forward to attending some road game this year since I went to none last year because of money.

And once football is over, i'll have no local sport to follow (I saw local because i'll still have the EPL to watch on TV). I do like the Boston Celtics, but not much of a fan to pay $179 for LP or travel to see them unless I have a dirt cheap ticket. Hell I attended a game last year where they played Cleveland and despite the C's almost blowing a 19 point lead in the 4th quartter, I was most concerned with what the Pens were doing againist Tampa (they won in OT) than the actual game i'm attending.

I'm not sure why I didn't follow the Steelers, we did play alot of football back then, probably as much as baseball & hockey. I guess to clarify, I wasn't that interested in the Steelers during their first two superbowls - I was happy they won, but I remember going to a superbowl party with my folks, and playing outside with some other kids during the entire game. (never would have happened if that were the Pens or Pirates haha). The year we lost to the Broncos (the year prior to superbowl #3) is when I started following the Steelers, and i've been a serious fan ever since. Right now I only follow the Steelers & Pens, and i'm a casual fan of Penn State football (and college football in general) and to a lesser extent, Maryland basketball.

I also like the hockey trips - I miss those too!

I guess comparing baseball to hockey isn't completely fair - Yubb's post was good, same situation here I guess. I still play in deck/ice leagues, and live and breath hockey too. I know during those times when I'm mad and say "eff this league, i'm done" - that I won't follow through with it. But we'll see what happens. I think there will be a big difference (for me) between the league playing this season, and losing the entire season. What that means specifically, I'm not sure yet...

I guess what I'm going to want to know, and probably others do too - is why should we believe that there won't be another work stoppage in 5 years? And also, it's just a sport - but we've all been inconvienanced as fans by this. I think the league better come up with something better than just a stupid "thank you fans" message painted on the ice...

[mikey287]

it's funny...i think it finally sunk in to people that supervillain bettman is just a spokesman for his bosses. so scattering to find the new face of evil, jacobs becomes the predictable target...the same guy whose role in the 2004 lockout helped rescue the league from the depths of irrelevancy. yeah - screw that guy and his historically correct assessments of league finances!

Yup. As I've stated many times, a lot of people hate Gary Bettman...a lot of those same people have no idea why. They just think they should. Myth-based arguments. The deeper you dig, the more you realize the union side of it is just...immature. They have their points, and they aren't all looney toons, I get some of their perspective...but some of it is just playground-level rules nonsense...and then it's backed up - like here - by just utter nincompoopery...

[shmenguin]

it's funny...i think it finally sunk in to people that supervillain bettman is just a spokesman for his bosses. so scattering to find the new face of evil, jacobs becomes the predictable target...the same guy whose role in the 2004 lockout helped rescue the league from the depths of irrelevancy. yeah - screw that guy and his historically correct assessments of league finances!

Yup. As I've stated many times, a lot of people hate Gary Bettman...a lot of those same people have no idea why. They just think they should. Myth-based arguments. The deeper you dig, the more you realize the union side of it is just...immature. They have their points, and they aren't all looney toons, I get some of their perspective...but some of it is just playground-level rules nonsense...and then it's backed up - like here - by just utter nincompoopery...

i don't know if dumb dumbs like mike rupp or ian white or ryan malone actually think bettman is responsible for this, or they just can't bite the hand that feeds them, so they intentionally misdirect their angst at the commissioner instead of the owners.

[Bathgate]

I guess what I'm going to want to know, and probably others do too - is why should we believe that there won't be another work stoppage in 5 years?

You can have reasonable confidence that there won’t be future work stoppages only if the players are the ones that “cave” again, as in 2005; in other words, if the owners win another round. The PA members will know that they gave it their best shot with the master sports labor leader, Donald Fehr, and lost again. It won’t be the end of the PA and it shouldn’t be, but they will know they have to negotiate only to the point of not losing games; then they must take the best offer they can get.

This is just another reason why all fans should hope the owners win. I would support the owners by attending games with replacement players, provided they lower the prices by at least 50% for such games.

[Tim Thomasen]

it's funny...i think it finally sunk in to people that supervillain bettman is just a spokesman for his bosses. so scattering to find the new face of evil, jacobs becomes the predictable target...the same guy whose role in the 2004 lockout helped rescue the league from the depths of irrelevancy. yeah - screw that guy and his historically correct assessments of league finances!

Yup. As I've stated many times, a lot of people hate Gary Bettman...a lot of those same people have no idea why. They just think they should. Myth-based arguments. The deeper you dig, the more you realize the union side of it is just...immature. They have their points, and they aren't all looney toons, I get some of their perspective...but some of it is just playground-level rules nonsense...and then it's backed up - like here - by just utter nincompoopery...

i don't know if dumb dumbs like mike rupp or ian white or ryan malone actually think bettman is responsible for this, or they just can't bite the hand that feeds them, so they intentionally misdirect their angst at the commissioner instead of the owners.

I think its because they fear the backlash from their owner once this ever ends and the owners go back to being the players employers. I mean if you think about it, none of the players have ever called out their owner personally. It's either bettman or the owners as a whole. I think Parise or Suter once called their owner Craig Leopold, but then backtracked their statement. In the interview Rohrabaugh did with Malone, Malone while bashing Bettman was saying how much of a good guy his owner Jeff Vinik is.

Even though I am on the owners side for the most part, I do realize how much of a turd Jacobs is just by reading this:

Winnipeg Jets representation at a recent NHL Board of Governors meeting piped up to say it was opposed to engaging in a long, bloody lockout sure to stymie their franchise’s momentum and hurt the game of hockey.

It wasn’t Winnipeg owner Mark Chipman, but rather one of the alternate governors representing the Jets.

Bruins Principal Owner and Chairman of the Board of Governors Jeremy Jacobs answered by reprimanding the Winnipeg representative as one of the “new kids on the block” and informed him that he would know when he was allowed to speak in the NHL board room

http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-brui ... eedID=3352

[no name]

I am not sure about this player\owner meeting. You never know, i know from reading Fehrs statments to the players, he writes everything in a larger scheem of things. He never dumbies it down to the lowest denominator. What it would cost each individual player. Sure the"players" are giving up a half a billion. But when you show how it breaks down to each player. Its doesn't look like that much. If they owner can explain this they might find a starting point.

But if i know Fehr he will have the players prepped on what to say and how to act as one union, like he should that's his job, i can respect that. So it might end in disaster with the players doin the "show me the money" routine.

[mikey287]

This report, by multiple sources, has been refuted. Including Winnipeg's people. Given that the author starts off with "here's a story..." - it kinda feels weird. Though I don't doubt there's a disparity among franchises that could cause some consternation not dissimilar to this...I just don't see it's relevance to the situation as a whole, other than the already established "Jacobs is a hardline jerk" - something everyone already knows...though TT was framing it just in the context of "Jacobs is a jerk" is obvious to most, I feel some will take it and run with it and paint all owners with that same brush...

I mean...uh, look at what bad, bad men all of the owners are...they can't even treat their fellow kind with respect and we expect them to show the players respect...ha! the players should form their own league...with blackjack and hookers! In fact, forget the league...