Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:16 pm

it's not easy, but you'll learn once you graduate and enter the workforce that feeling bad for these guys is silly. it's hard for everyone out there.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:17 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I have zero patience for the arguememt of post athletic careers. They are paid handsomely and nobody is forcing you to play hockey. There are also built in pensions, league sponsored advisors and official help on anything and everything they want from finances to personal to careers and beyond......my job doesn't baby me half as much as these pro players get in all sports.

There is zero excuse to come out of a career, even a small one with a less chance at life.

Give me $100,000 and I can get an apartment, a Honda civic and 9 degrees at CCAC over 4 years.

The entitlement of those ideas are frightening.


You're right, no one is forcing them to play the sport they love, but the majority of the time, they are forcing the players into retirement before the player believes they're ready.

You've spent your life knowing how to manage finances and what not. They've been playing sports their whole lives. They typically have 0 experience without cash flow. Unwanted retirement happens, no cash flow, and you get problems. Hell, look at half the retired NFL'ers. Look at all former athletes who have filed for bankruptcy at one point or another.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:17 pm

@ChrisBottaNHL: 48 hours later, Tuesday meeting exposed. It was a PR coup for Bettman - Burkle and Sid as saviors - and the PA bought it.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:19 pm

shmenguin wrote:it's not easy, but you'll learn once you graduate and enter the workforce that feeling bad for these guys is silly. it's hard for everyone out there.


Except I'm taking Sports Psych and this is an issue we covered extensively. I don't care if it's "silly" to feel bad. The problem still exists.
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Re: Lockout

Postby penny lane on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika
Owners are furious with Fehr, yes. I think they also sense a number of players want to vote on what is on table.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:27 pm

pens_srq wrote:Fehr is trolling them. He's infuriating.

"Donald Fehr has pointed out that in five years, the NHLPA, because of the nature of sports, will have a multitude of new members and it is only fair to give those members a say in what will happen to them in their careers."

Yeah Don lets just have a work stoppage every 5 years because players don't understand economics.


How does it not make sense? If you look at it from the attitude that the owners are going to lock them out because they're losing money, then its stupid. If you look at it from the players perspective, a short term deal is a no brainer. From the owner's standpoint...thank god it wasn't a 10 year deal last time. The league is allegedly on the verge of folding because of how one sided the last deal was...they would have been screwed if it was a long term deal.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:30 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:I wish I could show this Powerpoint on retiring players (any sport) and how hard it actually is for most of them in the first few years after.


They retire as multi-multi-millionaires and it's hard for them? Say whaaaaaaat?


Let's say you've signed a 1 year contract for $1-million. Your agent typically gets 3-5%, so let's call it 4% so we're right in the middle. Assume the season is 190 days (because players are paid by day, not by game) with 63 of those days (1/3 of the season) in Canada.

Base Salary: $1,000,000
US Income Tax: -$207,295.87
Canadian Income Tax: -$129,335.75
Escrow Fund: -$120,000 (players got 12.3% of last year's salary back out of escrow, so I'm low-balling the number a bit here)
Agent's Cut: -$40,000
Union Dues: -$25,000 (can't find any info, this one is complete speculation)

Take-Home Salary: $478,368.38


Subtract other costs of living and there really isn't much left to put away, relatively speaking. Unless you plan on liquidating assets once your career ends, you're probably not going to be live long off those savings.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:31 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:it's not easy, but you'll learn once you graduate and enter the workforce that feeling bad for these guys is silly. it's hard for everyone out there.


Except I'm taking Sports Psych and this is an issue we covered extensively. I don't care if it's "silly" to feel bad. The problem still exists.


the problem is a result of flawed personalities and socio-economic backgrounds. players that go bankrupt live appalling lifestyles and make stupid decisions.

sure, players get depressed when their careers end. that sucks. but executives get depressed when they get laid off and never get back to that level of employment. small business owners get depressed when they have to close shop and never have another professional success in their life.

when i was still a college kid, this notion of the poor old ex athlete had some traction with me, as well. but once you're "out there", you'll learn that "silly" was a kind way to put it
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:34 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:I wish I could show this Powerpoint on retiring players (any sport) and how hard it actually is for most of them in the first few years after.


They retire as multi-multi-millionaires and it's hard for them? Say whaaaaaaat?


:face:

That's not it at all.


Well, then explain it to me.


Most athletes don't have a pre-retirement plan set in place. The majority of the time, the retirement is not brought on by the athlete themselves. They're typically phased out by either:

1. Age

2. Deselection (we have guys who can fill your role for less money).

3. Injury

They typically aren't prepared for any of those to happen (you could argue they should be prepared for age, but when they're still at least contributing, but aren't signed because they're "too old", they aren't necessarily prepared).

When you factor in a player's psyche (coping skills, self-identity, social support outside their sport, their perception of control) with the fact that they suddenly don't have income flow AND they can't do something they've been working at since childhood, it creates problems, which can lead to problems including drug and alcohol abuse and depression.

So to answer your question, no, it's not that easy.


What? They retire at 30-something with millions of dollars. I'm supposed to feel sorry for these guys because some may have a hard time with a year-long vacation time, for the rest of their lives, if they choose it (most don't and go buy a car dealership or something else)? I would ask if you're on drugs, but I don't want to fight.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_srq on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:34 pm

Does NHL provide a pension for current players when they retire? If so, then all of the "what happens after 5 years" thing is kinda silly.

Also, if they were responsible with their money, like the rest of us are expected to be, then they could live pretty comfortably like a normal human being on $3 mil invested in CDs or even a savings account.

But no, many are like Jagr and waste everything to the point that they need to come back and stab their old teams/friends in the back for a few extra bucks.

Fehr keeps claiming that they are going to lose money, but the truth is everyone is going to lose money eventually because hockey is not going well for the lower end teams. With the owners changes the league will continue to grow and so will the players $$$ amounts. With the owner's fixes in place the league is even more fair and there will be even more parity which is the major factor in why the league has been increasingly successful in recent years. (It's the only reason the Pittsburgh Penguins exist, you know the team with the greatest fans).

I would bet all kinds of money (if I had it), that the players share will be worth more with the owners proposal at 50% in 10 years than it would be under the current system with 57% in 10 years.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:36 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:I wish I could show this Powerpoint on retiring players (any sport) and how hard it actually is for most of them in the first few years after.


They retire as multi-multi-millionaires and it's hard for them? Say whaaaaaaat?


Let's say you've signed a 1 year contract for $1-million. Your agent typically gets 3-5%, so let's call it 4% so we're right in the middle. Assume the season is 190 days (because players are paid by day, not by game) with 63 of those days (1/3 of the season) in Canada.

Base Salary: $1,000,000
US Income Tax: -$207,295.87
Canadian Income Tax: -$129,335.75
Escrow Fund: -$120,000 (players got 12.3% of last year's salary back out of escrow, so I'm low-balling the number a bit here)
Agent's Cut: -$40,000
Union Dues: -$25,000 (can't find any info, this one is complete speculation)

Take-Home Salary: $478,368.38


Subtract other costs of living and there really isn't much left to put away, relatively speaking. Unless you plan on liquidating assets once your career ends, you're probably not going to be live long off those savings.



go to school.
get a job that doesn't make a lot of money.
be a real person.

and hey, you won't even have a ton of debt along the way like the rest of us.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:36 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I have zero patience for the arguememt of post athletic careers. They are paid handsomely and nobody is forcing you to play hockey. There are also built in pensions, league sponsored advisors and official help on anything and everything they want from finances to personal to careers and beyond......my job doesn't baby me half as much as these pro players get in all sports.

There is zero excuse to come out of a career, even a small one with a less chance at life.

Give me $100,000 and I can get an apartment, a Honda civic and 9 degrees at CCAC over 4 years.

The entitlement of those ideas are frightening.


You're right, no one is forcing them to play the sport they love, but the majority of the time, they are forcing the players into retirement before the player believes they're ready.

You've spent your life knowing how to manage finances and what not. They've been playing sports their whole lives. They typically have 0 experience without cash flow. Unwanted retirement happens, no cash flow, and you get problems. Hell, look at half the retired NFL'ers. Look at all former athletes who have filed for bankruptcy at one point or another.


I learned how to manage my finances, nobody taught me. The league especially the NFL provides each player with more than enough opportunity to learn, more than enough, its almost sickening how much access they have to whatever help they need in life.

The fact they are going bankrupt is because they are entitled brats, not just because they are dumb.
They know they will have short careers, it's not a secret, leaving a career early should have no bearing.

The leagues invest ton of money above and beyond for players, in fact do some google work and see what the NFL does per, during and after. It's more than enough.

No excuses at all for any of it. And it should have zero bearing, in fact by that rational the owners should have greater protection due to circumstances that cause them to lose money year in and year out.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:36 pm

pens_srq wrote:Does NHL provide a pension for current players when they retire? If so, then all of the "what happens after 5 years" thing is kinda silly.

Also, if they were responsible with their money, like the rest of us are expected to be, then they could live pretty comfortably like a normal human being on $3 mil invested in CDs or even a savings account.

But no, many are like Jagr and waste everything to the point that they need to come back and stab their old teams/friends in the back for a few extra bucks.

Fehr keeps claiming that they are going to lose money, but the truth is everyone is going to lose money eventually because hockey is not going well for the lower end teams. With the owners changes the league will continue to grow and so will the players $$$ amounts. With the owner's fixes in place the league is even more fair and there will be even more parity which is the major factor in why the league has been increasingly successful in recent years. (It's the only reason the Pittsburgh Penguins exist, you know the team with the greatest fans).

I would bet all kinds of money (if I had it), that the players share will be worth more with the owners proposal at 50% in 10 years than it would be under the current system with 57% in 10 years.


So are you arguing against the players or owners. 50-50 isn't in dispute and hasn't been for a couple weeks.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:36 pm

Bettman not in the meeting.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:37 pm

Sarcastic wrote:What? They retire at 30-something with millions of dollars. I'm supposed to feel sorry for these guys because some may have a hard time with a year-long vacation time, for the rest of their lives, if they choose it (most don't and go buy a car dealership or something else)? I would ask if you're on drugs, but I don't want to fight.


So my viewpoint can't differ from yours?

Ok, then.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:38 pm

tfrizz wrote:Base Salary: $1,000,000
US Income Tax: -$207,295.87
Canadian Income Tax: -$129,335.75
Escrow Fund: -$120,000 (players got 12.3% of last year's salary back out of escrow, so I'm low-balling the number a bit here)
Agent's Cut: -$40,000
Union Dues: -$25,000 (can't find any info, this one is complete speculation)

Take-Home Salary: $478,368.38


Even if those numbers are OK - although, if I were a player, I wouldn't have an agent.. it's money thrown away - then you take a 2 or 4 or 6 million dollar salary and multiply that by 10 years in the league. That's how you measure it. If those cretins can't handle large sums of money and lose it all on some BS, that's their problem.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:What? They retire at 30-something with millions of dollars. I'm supposed to feel sorry for these guys because some may have a hard time with a year-long vacation time, for the rest of their lives, if they choose it (most don't and go buy a car dealership or something else)? I would ask if you're on drugs, but I don't want to fight.


So my viewpoint can't differ from yours?

Ok, then.


We can differ. It's all good. Just stating how I see it.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:43 pm

Then why the "Are you on drugs" comment? It was unnecessary.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:44 pm

pens_srq wrote:Does NHL provide a pension for current players when they retire? If so, then all of the "what happens after 5 years" thing is kinda silly.


There was one in the last CBA, and many articles written about the furious long-retired NHLers who have been running into financial troubles since they aren't getting pension cheques due to the lockout. Damien Cox (Toronto Star) pointed out a few weeks ago that neither the NHL nor NHLPA had even mentioned a renewed pension plan in their CBA proposals.

A lot of insiders reported on Twitter that the owners were infuriated when the players brought up pensions in their talks this week.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:46 pm

shmenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:it's not easy, but you'll learn once you graduate and enter the workforce that feeling bad for these guys is silly. it's hard for everyone out there.


Except I'm taking Sports Psych and this is an issue we covered extensively. I don't care if it's "silly" to feel bad. The problem still exists.


the problem is a result of flawed personalities and socio-economic backgrounds. players that go bankrupt live appalling lifestyles and make stupid decisions.

sure, players get depressed when their careers end. that sucks. but executives get depressed when they get laid off and never get back to that level of employment. small business owners get depressed when they have to close shop and never have another professional success in their life.

when i was still a college kid, this notion of the poor old ex athlete had some traction with me, as well. but once you're "out there", you'll learn that "silly" was a kind way to put it


I know where you're coming from. I don't feel bad for the Crosbys and Malkins. Sure, they're going to lose more directly... but they've got more to lose. It's the little guy that's given up everything in his life to play 1 or 2 seasons of NHL hockey that gets screwed. No education (and likely no chance of being accepted to a post-secondary institution), not nearly enough money saved to live of, and very (if any) employable skills.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:46 pm

Sarcastic wrote:if I were a player, I wouldn't have an agent..


You'd rather get hosed in negotiations?
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:47 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Then why the "Are you on drugs" comment? It was unnecessary.


Not meant to be offensive and I apologize if you took it that way, but I just can't believe you want me to feel sorry for these guys.
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Re: Lockout

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:48 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I learned how to manage my finances, nobody taught me. The league especially the NFL provides each player with more than enough opportunity to learn, more than enough, its almost sickening how much access they have to whatever help they need in life.

The fact they are going bankrupt is because they are entitled brats, not just because they are dumb.
They know they will have short careers, it's not a secret, leaving a career early should have no bearing.

The leagues invest ton of money above and beyond for players, in fact do some google work and see what the NFL does per, during and after. It's more than enough.

No excuses at all for any of it. And it should have zero bearing, in fact by that rational the owners should have greater protection due to circumstances that cause them to lose money year in and year out.


:thumb:
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:51 pm

shmenguin wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:I wish I could show this Powerpoint on retiring players (any sport) and how hard it actually is for most of them in the first few years after.


They retire as multi-multi-millionaires and it's hard for them? Say whaaaaaaat?


Let's say you've signed a 1 year contract for $1-million. Your agent typically gets 3-5%, so let's call it 4% so we're right in the middle. Assume the season is 190 days (because players are paid by day, not by game) with 63 of those days (1/3 of the season) in Canada.

Base Salary: $1,000,000
US Income Tax: -$207,295.87
Canadian Income Tax: -$129,335.75
Escrow Fund: -$120,000 (players got 12.3% of last year's salary back out of escrow, so I'm low-balling the number a bit here)
Agent's Cut: -$40,000
Union Dues: -$25,000 (can't find any info, this one is complete speculation)

Take-Home Salary: $478,368.38


Subtract other costs of living and there really isn't much left to put away, relatively speaking. Unless you plan on liquidating assets once your career ends, you're probably not going to be live long off those savings.



go to school.
get a job that doesn't make a lot of money.
be a real person.

and hey, you won't even have a ton of debt along the way like the rest of us.


I can't speak for how it works in the US or anywhere else in the world, but here in Canada any hockey player that shows enough talent to make the NHL (even marginally) is very unlikely to have grades good enough to get into a reputable school. They could probably do some trades studies at a community college, depending on the kind of state they leave hockey in.

The CHL has a program in place where they'll pay for 1 year of post-secondary studies for every year you play in one of their 3 leagues (WHL, OHL, and QMJHL). It's a nice deal if you're able to pull good enough grades.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:51 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:if I were a player, I wouldn't have an agent..


You'd rather get hosed in negotiations?


I wouldn't. Players know what the other guy got, so there shouldn't be much of a problem. If a guy was really worried, he could hire an agent or an accountant at the time a new contract is signed and pay him a lump sum, instead of paying him year long or, rather, the entire length of the contract. I think Ovechkin is without an agent. Someone wrote that on HF the other day.
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