Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:55 pm

Interesting... I'd think that's a big plus for the players as well. Right now, there is a max of ~70m x 30 clubs on the table, but if 15 clubs don't spend it all, it's unused. Now teams can use that unused space, increasing potential salaries.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:59 pm

Is anyone advocating a Martin trade without a hypothetical replacement lined up?

Don't think so
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Re: Lockout

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:02 pm

We have to be getting close to a deal... Paul Martin talk is heating up!
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Re: Lockout

Postby Defence21 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:07 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:The idea of getting martin at this poin is even more ludicrous if there is a shortened season. Once michalek was gone he was staying anyway, but maybe you are ok with moving him with a full season for the replacement to grow. You definitely dont lean on two rookies going to playoffs after half a season.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, but I'm actually not for buying out Martin. He'd be the second top-four defenseman lost since last season without the guarantee of a suitable 20+ minute replacement. I'm more for buying out a lower tier player if there is a need to create room for more contracts.
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Re: Lockout

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:17 pm

So, there should be a clause in the contract that gives a team a Cap increase of up to 15% increase the first year, 10% the second 5 % the third, for NOT using the buyout clause.

That would lessen the effect on teams that played by the rules and did things the right way the last 6 or so years.
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Re: Lockout

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:21 pm

You're expecting the owners, who's GMs put them in those bad contracts to begin with, to give other owners an advantage by writing that clause in? ;) If a fan writes the CBA, you might get that; otherwise, no owner or player is going to put that in there or convince all others to put that in there.
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Re: Lockout

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:22 pm

bhaw wrote:You're expecting the owners, who's GMs put them in those bad contracts to begin with, to give other owners an advantage by writing that clause in? ;) If a fan writes the CBA, you might get that; otherwise, no owner or player is going to put that in there or convince all others to put that in there.


The good owners/GM's? yeah...
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Defence21 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:The idea of getting martin at this poin is even more ludicrous if there is a shortened season. Once michalek was gone he was staying anyway, but maybe you are ok with moving him with a full season for the replacement to grow. You definitely dont lean on two rookies going to playoffs after half a season.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, but I'm actually not for buying out Martin. He'd be the second top-four defenseman lost since last season without the guarantee of a suitable 20+ minute replacement. I'm more for buying out a lower tier player if there is a need to create room for more contracts.


It wasn't really. I guess it was building off of it. My post is so incoherent though, I need to stop posting from my phone.
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Re: Lockout

Postby FreeCandy44 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:36 pm

So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:53 pm

FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?



Well the idea is Jan 5th is the date something would have to be in place to have games start Jan. 14th which seems to be the latest date to get in a meaningful season of 48 games, as per the commish. So if the sides don't haggle out something until then. If nothing happens the union will disband and this will goto the courts which in theory ends any hope of a season.

You know the counterproposal will have that Fehr wording "the player can't take any less than they did the year befor" something that he knows the owners won't take.
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Re: Lockout

Postby FreeCandy44 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:04 pm

:) ty for the explanation.
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Re: Lockout

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:13 pm

no name wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?



Well the idea is Jan 5th is the date something would have to be in place to have games start Jan. 14th which seems to be the latest date to get in a meaningful season of 48 games, as per the commish. So if the sides don't haggle out something until then. If nothing happens the union will disband and this will goto the courts which in theory ends any hope of a season.

You know the counterproposal will have that Fehr wording "the player can't take any less than they did the year befor" something that he knows the owners won't take.


The players can't take any less than they did the year before PLUS 3 donkeys.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:31 pm

bhaw wrote:
no name wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?



Well the idea is Jan 5th is the date something would have to be in place to have games start Jan. 14th which seems to be the latest date to get in a meaningful season of 48 games, as per the commish. So if the sides don't haggle out something until then. If nothing happens the union will disband and this will goto the courts which in theory ends any hope of a season.

You know the counterproposal will have that Fehr wording "the player can't take any less than they did the year befor" something that he knows the owners won't take.


The players can't take any less than they did the year before PLUS 3 donkeys.


:lol:
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:56 pm

FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?


I'm sure its the same as the last one. I'm not sure where people get the idea that the PA will counter with something outlandish, as that has yet to happen. I'm guessing the players counter, the owners huff and walk away and then the owners inch closer to them next week. That either happens at the drop dead date or a couple days before, then right before it hits the deadline, the players take that offer. The owners get played to the greatest extent possible, which is to say that they make no concessions and get what they were looking for all along.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pressure=9Pa on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:49 pm

So if there is a season, and it gets extended so the Cup Finals run into Mid-June, and the Final is between Phoenix and Tampa, will the series be known as hockey's Fog Bowl?
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Re: Lockout

Postby mikey287 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:26 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?


I'm sure its the same as the last one. I'm not sure where people get the idea that the PA will counter with something outlandish, as that has yet to happen.


It seems as though you may foe people that disagree with what you say or whatever and I'm one of them...but just so this misinformation doesn't pollute others' heads...the PA's counterproposals have included such things as de-linkage (revenue from salaries), something we just lost a season over, so if that's not outlandish then I can see why you're so pro-union...
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Re: Lockout

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:58 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?


I'm sure its the same as the last one. I'm not sure where people get the idea that the PA will counter with something outlandish, as that has yet to happen. I'm guessing the players counter, the owners huff and walk away and then the owners inch closer to them next week. That either happens at the drop dead date or a couple days before, then right before it hits the deadline, the players take that offer. The owners get played to the greatest extent possible, which is to say that they make no concessions and get what they were looking for all along.


You don't remember the three scenarios they presented in October? I'm not sure where you come from with the assumptions you've been spouting off, but the bottom line is that the Fehr's routinely come to a planned negotiation meeting with an offer and little else. They haven't been acting in good faith, nor have they helped the players cause.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:28 am

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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:30 am

Pitt87 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?


I'm sure its the same as the last one. I'm not sure where people get the idea that the PA will counter with something outlandish, as that has yet to happen. I'm guessing the players counter, the owners huff and walk away and then the owners inch closer to them next week. That either happens at the drop dead date or a couple days before, then right before it hits the deadline, the players take that offer. The owners get played to the greatest extent possible, which is to say that they make no concessions and get what they were looking for all along.


You don't remember the three scenarios they presented in October? I'm not sure where you come from with the assumptions you've been spouting off, but the bottom line is that the Fehr's routinely come to a planned negotiation meeting with an offer and little else. They haven't been acting in good faith, nor have they helped the players cause.

I clearly remember them. Those were closer to where we are now than the owners proposal that they were responding to. What have they done in bad faith? The owners have refused to negotiate. Thats bad faith.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_CT on Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:34 am


The legend of Don Fehr continues. The NHLPA will end up with a very similar deal to what Paul Kelly would have negotiated, and it probably would have been accomplished without a lockout. So the membership gains nothing with Fehr, but loses at least a 1/2 year of salary. As I said the Fehr legend continues.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:01 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
FreeCandy44 wrote:So is this basically the last take it or leave it offer? Like take this or done?


I'm sure its the same as the last one. I'm not sure where people get the idea that the PA will counter with something outlandish, as that has yet to happen. I'm guessing the players counter, the owners huff and walk away and then the owners inch closer to them next week. That either happens at the drop dead date or a couple days before, then right before it hits the deadline, the players take that offer. The owners get played to the greatest extent possible, which is to say that they make no concessions and get what they were looking for all along.


You don't remember the three scenarios they presented in October? I'm not sure where you come from with the assumptions you've been spouting off, but the bottom line is that the Fehr's routinely come to a planned negotiation meeting with an offer and little else. They haven't been acting in good faith, nor have they helped the players cause.


I clearly remember them. Those were closer to where we are now than the owners proposal that they were responding to. What have they done in bad faith? The owners have refused to negotiate. Thats bad faith.


Those were closer? Those were in good faith? The ones on a piece of paper that were put together without running the numbers? Saying that is in good faith, when clearly it was a PR move to simply say they responded knowing it would infuriate the owners and infuriate them quickly.

......well simply not sure how to respond to you if you think that was actually in good faith and the owners walking away from it wasnt.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:39 am

I'm not sure either. You don't negotiate one full proposal at a time...in any negotiation...ever. Thats not negotiating. Thats bidding. There are only two parties involved here. It is not a bid situation. Argue that the PA is making things difficult all you want, its just not true. The owners have repeatedly halted this process because they're afraid to negotiate with someone that is competent. Thats bad faith.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:52 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I'm not sure either. You don't negotiate one full proposal at a time...in any negotiation...ever. Thats not negotiating. Thats bidding. There are only two parties involved here. It is not a bid situation. Argue that the PA is making things difficult all you want, its just not true. The owners have repeatedly halted this process because they're afraid to negotiate with someone that is competent. Thats bad faith.


The thing is they didnt negotiate it that way. The full proposal negotiation or the owners not negotiating is you looking at it in a vacuum. This negotiation has been going on for 4 months now and you seemed to be focusing on the one or two things that fit those two theories.

Overall it didnt happen that way. Or even close to it. It ended that way because of how Fehr played his cards, period.
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Re: Lockout

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:54 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I'm not sure either. You don't negotiate one full proposal at a time...in any negotiation...ever. Thats not negotiating. Thats bidding. There are only two parties involved here. It is not a bid situation. Argue that the PA is making things difficult all you want, its just not true. The owners have repeatedly halted this process because they're afraid to negotiate with someone that is competent. Thats bad faith.

Good faith is putting proposals on the table that aren't "eliminate the Salary Cap". Fehr knows that theres not a "snowballs chance..." of the owners even considering that.

You can't possibly believe that's good faith negotiating.
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Re: Lockout

Postby interstorm on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:13 am

pens_CT wrote:

The legend of Don Fehr continues. The NHLPA will end up with a very similar deal to what Paul Kelly would have negotiated, and it probably would have been accomplished without a lockout. So the membership gains nothing with Fehr, but loses at least a 1/2 year of salary. As I said the Fehr legend continues.


Uhh..I agree with the article author. If the owners would have just jumped to this offer to begin with, we would be talking about playoff races now. Right now it looks like it took fehr to get them there. Then again, the owners did get a half year reprieve from paying salaries. Time will tell if any damage done to the brand was worth that.
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