Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Maestro on Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:57 pm

I'd move him for a fwd, hemsky straight up or as part of a Heatly deal or for Erat, then you sign that former blues damn as UFA, but outside of that keep him.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:05 pm

Maestro wrote:I'd move him for a fwd, hemsky straight up or as part of a Heatly deal or for Erat, then you sign that former blues damn as UFA, but outside of that keep him.


Coliacovo? lol... No.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Froggy on Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:16 pm

we would be a much much much worse team if:
A: We traded Martin without getting a D-man at least as good as he is back
B: If we bring in soft, one dimensional, past their prime wingers like hemsky or heatly.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby offsides on Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:33 pm

Froggy wrote:
The Current One wrote:Martin a top 4 dman? On what team? Shouldn't a top 4 dman be able to actually defend?

If you don't think Martin is a top 4 guy on any team, you either don't watch much hockey, or are just irrational with hatred for the dude


He sure didn't play like a top 4 at the end of the season and in the plyoff series. He was reported to have had a concussion which may have caused the poor playoff performance. I think he has a lot to prove this season. There were times last year when he stuck the joint up. In fact, the whole D has a long way to go. Scoring will not be an issue, the defence will be the question mark this season. After a few injuries, we could be playing with 3 or more rookie D. On the plus side, at least they will be getting NHL experience.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Froggy on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:23 pm

realize by saying that martin isn't a top 4 d man on ANY team, what that means is there are at least 120 defensemen in the league who are better than him which is just really really ridiculous.

i hate being the one who has to keep pointing out how ridiculous the martin hate is.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby the wicked child on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:07 pm

Froggy wrote:realize by saying that martin isn't a top 4 d man on ANY team, what that means is there are at least 120 defensemen in the league who are better than him which is just really really ridiculous.

i hate being the one who has to keep pointing out how ridiculous the martin hate is.

I think you're enjoying it.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Froggy on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:08 pm

the wicked child wrote:
Froggy wrote:realize by saying that martin isn't a top 4 d man on ANY team, what that means is there are at least 120 defensemen in the league who are better than him which is just really really ridiculous.

i hate being the one who has to keep pointing out how ridiculous the martin hate is.

I think you're enjoying it.


i guess it keeps me pretty busy...
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:25 pm

IMFC wrote:I've always seen Orpik and Martin on the left side. Does this matter that much to most defensemen? I would think they develop a comfort level on one side or the other, so does Orpik-Martin work?


Important for some d-men, very important to many coaches. Though North American hockey rarely differentiates from LD and RD ever since the position "defenseman" or "defenceman" was established, evolving from the former positions "point" and "cover point" and to a lesser extent, "rover" back in the old 7 on 7 game. You have to think about it tactically. Puck is in the corner, opposition wings it up the boards and your d-man pinches over at the blueline to hold it in. A right-handed defenseman on the left wing boards is at a natural disadvantage to a) keeping the puck in and being useful with it b) withstanding any board battle that would ensue because he's on his weak side.

If you have a puck-rushing defenseman, a guy who sets the pace and leads the breakout, it's not considered ideal, especially in North American hockey, to have that player carrying the puck through the middle of the ice...if he makes a mistake, you got problems. If he loses it up the boards, he can hack at it and maybe chip it ahead or at least not put the takeaway team in a prime position immediately.

Players have a comfort level as well, some players are just plain more comfortable on one side of the rink. Some players can pinch/step better on one foot as oppose to the other, stop better on one foot versus the other and when they have to make a play, they might feel more comfortable on one side of the ice.

In coaching, Scotty Bowman would strive to have a LH d-man and a RH d-man on the same pairing. The 2012 Los Angeles Kings arranged their pairings in such a way as well.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby pcm on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:37 am

Let the kids play, it's the only way they'll develop. The Pens have a glut of defensemen who could fill the 5-7 roles on this team. Could Despres jump up into top 4 minutes? He sure looked ready for it last season, but there's only one way to find out for sure. Engelland-Lovejoy-Bortuzoo-Strait-Doumlin-Morrow can all battle it out for 5-7.

So if someone comes knocking for Paul Martin, I say yes, if you can get a young top 6 forward in return. If Shero judges players based on their "compete level", as he's said in the past, then Nashville's Gabrielle Bourque should be near the top of the list of young guys to play with Sid. He doesn't have the high pedigree, but he leaves it all on the ice, akin to a young Shane Doan.

Let the young guys play half a season getting quality minutes, then look to bolster your d in the second half if nobody's stepped up (or still).
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby sil on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:44 am

pcm wrote:Let the kids play, it's the only way they'll develop. The Pens have a glut of defensemen who could fill the 5-7 roles on this team. Could Despres jump up into top 4 minutes? He sure looked ready for it last season, but there's only one way to find out for sure. Engelland-Lovejoy-Bortuzoo-Strait-Doumlin-Morrow can all battle it out for 5-7.

So if someone comes knocking for Paul Martin, I say yes, if you can get a young top 6 forward in return. If Shero judges players based on their "compete level", as he's said in the past, then Nashville's Gabrielle Bourque should be near the top of the list of young guys to play with Sid. He doesn't have the high pedigree, but he leaves it all on the ice, akin to a young Shane Doan.

Let the young guys play half a season getting quality minutes, then look to bolster your d in the second half if nobody's stepped up (or still).


I have trouble seeing Martin return us a young top-6 forward. Depending on what else it took to land said forward though, yes, I'd trade him and not look back. I don't see Paul Martin as the key cog/difference maker in us going from contender to pretender. As it stands right now, we're not contenders even with him in the lineup.

Let the transition to a new (home grown) defense begin!
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:04 am

They're contenders any time Crosby and Malkin hit a hot streak simultaneously. At the same time though, I don't want to count on that. Martin may not be a game breaker, but when he's not doing what he did last season, he gives you good minutes. I don't know that one of the younger guys can do that. There will be plenty of minutes available for young guys in the bottom 3 this season, they won't be lacking for opportunity to earn more playing time even with him in the lineup. I don't like the value of his deal, but I don't like the idea of getting rid of Martin at this point in time either. If the young guys look like they can carry the minutes, make a trade mid season if something opens up. Martin's contract isn't hurting a team that has the kind of cap space the pens have this season. In the meantime, maybe he goes back to playing like he did 2 seasons ago. If he plays like that, its possible to stomach that contract. A guy that can give you 20+ good even strength minutes a night gives you nice flexibility with the rest of your defense.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby sil on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:45 am

Idoit40fans wrote:There will be plenty of minutes available for young guys in the bottom 3 this season, they won't be lacking for opportunity to earn more playing time even with him in the lineup. I don't like the value of his deal, but I don't like the idea of getting rid of Martin at this point in time either. If the young guys look like they can carry the minutes, make a trade mid season if something opens up.


I'd imagine if he ends up leaving, that's how it'll happen, especially if his first half of 2012-13 is anything like his entire 2011-12.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Mad City Mike on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:Our D wouldn't be questionable at all if the Pens had a coach whose system required the forwards to know where the defensive zone is.


Fixed it for you.

You're welcome.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:Our D wouldn't be questionable at all if the Pens had a coach who had control and authority over his talent.


Fixed it for you.

You're welcome.


fixed again
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby columbia on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:59 pm

It's going to get real ugly around here, if we don't see a more responsible defensive-scheme this season.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:57 pm

columbia wrote:It's going to get real ugly around here, if we don't see a more responsible defensive-scheme this season.

Ugly here, ugly in the GM's office, and in the coaching staff's offices as well. :lol:
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:14 pm

Nashville needs to spend some money to hit the floor. Lovejoy and Martin for Klein and a 2nd rounder. Win-win.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby meow on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:23 pm

DelPen wrote:Nashville needs to spend some money to hit the floor. Lovejoy and Martin for Klein and a 2nd rounder. Win-win.

How exactly is that a win for us?
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:28 pm

DelPen wrote:Nashville needs to spend some money to hit the floor. Lovejoy and Martin for Klein and a 2nd rounder. Win-win.


Klein isn't even worth Martin, let alone Martin + Lovejoy.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby offsides on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:41 pm

Digitalgypsy66 wrote:
columbia wrote:It's going to get real ugly around here, if we don't see a more responsible defensive-scheme this season.

Ugly here, ugly in the GM's office, and in the coaching staff's offices as well. :lol:


Yep. Could prove to be very interesting this season, if the D doesn't change\improve.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby HockeyDaddy on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:54 pm

It has been very popular to rip apart the Penguins defensive performance that ended their season in the first round. I have been thinking about the injuries to the defensive squad that occurred throughout the season. I really think that those injuries in the regular season played a huge factor in the playoffs. The majority of the top six missed significant time, and were rarely able to find a groove with consistent partners. When the going got tough against the Flyers, maybe the D didn't have the familiarity factor/instinct to fall back on that could have put them in auto mode.

No doubt, there were many, many things that went wrong and this idea could be far fetched, but injuries happen. Even if the Pens go into the season as is, a healthy team puts them at an advantage over any team that suffers through injuries the way that the Pens did last year.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:23 pm

Part of the inability to find consistent partners also had to do with the team's structure. Letang and Orpik grew up in the system, so they're ok despite their different styles. But that left Martin and Michalek and Niskanen...Niskanen is still an untested commodity versus big time players, and all the guys behind him are not and can not be trusted by the coaching staff to do anything right. So that leaves Martin and Michalek, two non-aggressive players, to be paired together which changes the entire dynamic of the team. The transition game would be fine, but Martin isn't allowed to carry the puck, so that puts a lot of strain on the forwards offensively, and then also defensively...it changes everything, the team can't cycle as effectively either, as they don't have a fourth man to come in and keep plays alive with confidence.

I won't say that injuries weren't a hurdle...it's a fair point...but a lot of it stems from incongruent personnel...
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby DelPen on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:01 am

Martin carries the puck all the time, what makes you say he isn't allowed to carry it? If anything he skates it to much into the offensive zone and gets caught out of position more than any other defensemen in the 2nd half last year.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Nizzy on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:41 am

I'm not a Martin fan, people know this.

However you can't win a cup with 3 rookie defenseman in the lineup. We need him, at least for another year or two, if there's no other trades for another veteran. I just hope he was truely injured or was worried about concussion issues reoccuring. The way he played in the playoffs last year was Gonchar level of 2010. Scared to even get close to anyone. He shouldn't have played game 3, shouldve been out for Despres.

With that being said, I think the key to getting Martin back to form is to put the pressure on Letang & Despres.

Letang & Despres, french canadian top pairing
Martin & Orpik, american 2nd pairing

Don't touch these unless injury. Let them play on season together, they'll figure it out eventually.

No more of this Niskanen in the top 4/above Martin junk. Niskanen is playing very well, and thats because he's the 5th defenseman. Keep it that way for now.

If the Preds seriously want Martin, we will take Hornqvist or hang the phone up.
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Re: Preds looking to trade for top 4 Dman - Paul Martin?

Postby Froggy on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:06 am

MARTIN HAD A CONCUSSION IN THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR!

he wasn't playing scared, he was playing injured.
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