Tangradi

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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:20 am

mikey287 wrote:Valid

Foot speed is a valid concern. But he has a natural defense against it - size and puck protection. Keith Tkachuk and Bill Guerin both below average skaters, carved out meaningful careers. Thousands more, failed to become anything. It's very possible he doesn't become anything at all. But he has the ability, the potential, to be a contributing NHLer.


Bill Guerin won the fastest skater competition once in an All Star game. He at least had speed.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Steve on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:29 am

I've never really liked the overachieved label, especially in the NHL. I'm not even sure what it means, like overachieving compared to what?
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Re: Tangradi

Postby shmenguin on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:34 am

i always think of bertuzzi when i think of who tangradi should try to emulate.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 am

steelhammer wrote:I hope you are right, Mikey. I want to believe, but what I have seen of him at the NHL level does not give me any confidence in his ability. Quite the opposite. In summary, I hope Jeffrey is fully recovered and back to his pre-injury level. You know, where he was making an impact on the ice regardless of situation or linemates.


I also hope Jeffrey is healthy, but to suggest he made an 'impact regardless of the situation or linemates' is just plain wrong. Take a look at who was on the ice with Jeffrey whilst he was making 'an impact' (ie goals/assists). Hmmmm, just a bunch of scrubs called Staal, Kunitz, Kennedy, Dupuis, Cooke, Kovalev. I don't suppose injuries to the teams top centers could be considered favourable situations for Jeffrey either.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 am

steelhammer wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Valid

Foot speed is a valid concern. But he has a natural defense against it - size and puck protection. Keith Tkachuk and Bill Guerin both below average skaters, carved out meaningful careers. Thousands more, failed to become anything. It's very possible he doesn't become anything at all. But he has the ability, the potential, to be a contributing NHLer.


Bill Guerin won the fastest skater competition once in an All Star game. He at least had speed.


Straight-line speed in his prime, yes. Which I believe Tangradi could possibly develop (not win a competition in it though), I never thought much of Guerin's acceleration throughout his career...good find though on the fastest skater competition, I had forgotten about that completely...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:40 am

shmenguin wrote:i always think of bertuzzi when i think of who tangradi should try to emulate.


That's lofty, but a good model of game to emulate. Bertuzzi had so much more skill than Tangradi will ever develop, tremendously skilled...had a much higher ceiling than he accomplished...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:41 am

Never really was a big fan of Jeffrey...let's see what he can do when healthy, not really sure he's in our plans long-term...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby tfrizz on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:44 am

columbia wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
Skill set understated

Fan base sees 1 goal in 40 games and thinks lack of skill. Has a good amount of skill and the size to gain time for himself to help offset his natural flaw, lack of speed. Takes time to put these elements together (see: Malone, Ryan; Guerin, Bill; and a host of others).



Are you sure that you want to contend that Tangradi has NHL skill?
The AHL is littered with skill players (at that level), who will never make a dent in the NHL in that way.

Malone put up 20+ in his first NHL season and Guerin never looked back after his first cup of coffee.


Both Malone and Guerin went the college route before turning pro, which seems (even now) to provide an easier transition to the NHL than coming from junior. One thing to keep in mind is that Malone was 24 years old before getting a taste of NHL action, and Guerin was 22 before making it stick with the Devils.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle for Tangradi is learning how to play an effective power style of hockey.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:47 am

mikey287 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Valid

Foot speed is a valid concern. But he has a natural defense against it - size and puck protection. Keith Tkachuk and Bill Guerin both below average skaters, carved out meaningful careers. Thousands more, failed to become anything. It's very possible he doesn't become anything at all. But he has the ability, the potential, to be a contributing NHLer.


Bill Guerin won the fastest skater competition once in an All Star game. He at least had speed.


Straight-line speed in his prime, yes. Which I believe Tangradi could possibly develop (not win a competition in it though), I never thought much of Guerin's acceleration throughout his career...good find though on the fastest skater competition, I had forgotten about that completely...


Tangradi certainly needs to keep working on all facets of his skating. His acceleration (first step/few strides) is poor but once he gets going his straight line speed is ok but could continue to develop (I thought his skating had a bit of extra jump end of season/playoffs).
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:49 am

Luckybreak wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I hope you are right, Mikey. I want to believe, but what I have seen of him at the NHL level does not give me any confidence in his ability. Quite the opposite. In summary, I hope Jeffrey is fully recovered and back to his pre-injury level. You know, where he was making an impact on the ice regardless of situation or linemates.


I also hope Jeffrey is healthy, but to suggest he made an 'impact regardless of the situation or linemates' is just plain wrong. Take a look at who was on the ice with Jeffrey whilst he was making 'an impact' (ie goals/assists). Hmmmm, just a bunch of scrubs called Staal, Kunitz, Kennedy, Dupuis, Cooke, Kovalev. I don't suppose injuries to the teams top centers could be considered favourable situations for Jeffrey either.


Sorry pal, but you are the one who is wrong here. In the 10-11 season he started on the 4th line and immediately started producing. That got him time with better linemates and he had 6 points in his first 10 games. So, like I said, he produced regardless of situation or linemates. He earned his icetime and actually produced with or without better linemates, unlike other prospects who get excuses made for them.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:54 am

Straight line speed is important. Even if you aren't that mobile, you don't get left behind the play. You get in the zone and take up space...either zone. Thats a huge thing that gets overlooked when people get concerned about lateral movement.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:06 pm

mikey287 wrote:Never really was a big fan of Jeffrey...let's see what he can do when healthy, not really sure he's in our plans long-term...


He showed a lot of promise in the 10-11 season. 7 goals & 12 points (11 of which at ES) in 25 games with less than 13 minutes/game. He has a well-rounded game and was able to produce in a lot of different situations. He has PK potential as well so don't discount the importance of that, especially since Adams is on his last legs. That knee injury just destroyed him. Hopefully he has made a full recovery, but that is not always possible with those kind of injuries.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby meow on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:10 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Straight line speed is important. Even if you aren't that mobile, you don't get left behind the play. You get in the zone and take up space...either zone. Thats a huge thing that gets overlooked when people get concerned about lateral movement.

I don't agree with this. Game situation: would you rather have a guy win a 10ft race or a 100ft race for a 50/50 puck? I'd much rather have a guy that gets to top speed in 3 steps than a guy that gets to top speed in 6 steps, but his top speed is higher.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:12 pm

meow wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Straight line speed is important. Even if you aren't that mobile, you don't get left behind the play. You get in the zone and take up space...either zone. Thats a huge thing that gets overlooked when people get concerned about lateral movement.

I don't agree with this. Game situation: would you rather have a guy win a 10ft race or a 100ft race for a 50/50 puck? I'd much rather have a guy that gets to top speed in 3 steps than a guy that gets to top speed in 6 steps, but his top speed is higher.


...so when are you going to disagree with me?
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:17 pm

steelhammer wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I hope you are right, Mikey. I want to believe, but what I have seen of him at the NHL level does not give me any confidence in his ability. Quite the opposite. In summary, I hope Jeffrey is fully recovered and back to his pre-injury level. You know, where he was making an impact on the ice regardless of situation or linemates.


I also hope Jeffrey is healthy, but to suggest he made an 'impact regardless of the situation or linemates' is just plain wrong. Take a look at who was on the ice with Jeffrey whilst he was making 'an impact' (ie goals/assists). Hmmmm, just a bunch of scrubs called Staal, Kunitz, Kennedy, Dupuis, Cooke, Kovalev. I don't suppose injuries to the teams top centers could be considered favourable situations for Jeffrey either.


Sorry pal, but you are the one who is wrong here. In the 10-11 season he started on the 4th line and immediately started producing. That got him time with better linemates and he had 6 points in his first 10 games. So, like I said, he produced regardless of situation or linemates. He earned his icetime and actually produced with or without better linemates, unlike other prospects who get excuses made for them.


Dec 11th 2pts on 4th line
0pts in next 4 games.
Crosby injured Jan 1st
Jan 22nd 1pt on a line with Staal
Jan 25th 1pt on 4th line
Feb 1st 1pt on line with Kunitz
Feb 2nd 0pts
Feb 4th Malkin injured.

Yes Jeffrey was doing better than ET on the 4th and deserved his early looks on top lines, but his ascension was clearly due to injuries than his production.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:20 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Straight line speed is important. Even if you aren't that mobile, you don't get left behind the play. You get in the zone and take up space...either zone. Thats a huge thing that gets overlooked when people get concerned about lateral movement.


Quite. Straight line speed is important, forecheck as well. First step quickness is also very effective when disengaging from a board battle and winning the puck forward. Both of great importance, shortcuts/work-arounds can be crafted out of necessity based on limitations.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:37 pm

steelhammer wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Valid

Foot speed is a valid concern. But he has a natural defense against it - size and puck protection. Keith Tkachuk and Bill Guerin both below average skaters, carved out meaningful careers. Thousands more, failed to become anything. It's very possible he doesn't become anything at all. But he has the ability, the potential, to be a contributing NHLer.


Bill Guerin won the fastest skater competition once in an All Star game. He at least had speed.


He was a really good skater; probably what set him apart from guys his size, actually.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:38 pm

Luckybreak wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I hope you are right, Mikey. I want to believe, but what I have seen of him at the NHL level does not give me any confidence in his ability. Quite the opposite. In summary, I hope Jeffrey is fully recovered and back to his pre-injury level. You know, where he was making an impact on the ice regardless of situation or linemates.


I also hope Jeffrey is healthy, but to suggest he made an 'impact regardless of the situation or linemates' is just plain wrong. Take a look at who was on the ice with Jeffrey whilst he was making 'an impact' (ie goals/assists). Hmmmm, just a bunch of scrubs called Staal, Kunitz, Kennedy, Dupuis, Cooke, Kovalev. I don't suppose injuries to the teams top centers could be considered favourable situations for Jeffrey either.


Sorry pal, but you are the one who is wrong here. In the 10-11 season he started on the 4th line and immediately started producing. That got him time with better linemates and he had 6 points in his first 10 games. So, like I said, he produced regardless of situation or linemates. He earned his icetime and actually produced with or without better linemates, unlike other prospects who get excuses made for them.


Dec 11th 2pts on 4th line
0pts in next 4 games.
Crosby injured Jan 1st
Jan 22nd 1pt on a line with Staal
Jan 25th 1pt on 4th line
Feb 1st 1pt on line with Kunitz
Feb 2nd 0pts
Feb 4th Malkin injured.

Yes Jeffrey was doing better than ET on the 4th and deserved his early looks on top lines, but his ascension was clearly due to injuries than his production.


The fact that he produced ANYTHING after Malkin was injured should be worth something. 4 goals during that stretch for the Pens is probably like scoring 9 goals during a regular healthy stretch of games.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:46 pm

I agree with a lot of what DayWalker is talking about. I've made my position known before that I do not think this group fo forwards is good enough to allow Penguins to challenge for the cup. I think that lack of depth - and I mean scoring depth - has finally caught up to us and to go into the season and rely on three guys to regularly score is suicide, especially since we are not a trapping, defensive, juggernaut. I agree with Walker on Kunitz and Dupuis. I like both guys, but they are complimentary players for a top center and winger. We traded Staal, got rid of Michalek, so the money saved has to be used to fianally find Sidney a winger. Until that happens, I don't see us going far because Sid or Geno will get shut down at some point and we're going to get knocked out again. Too many checkers on this team and checkers who aren't even big or play a physical game like they did during the Cup run. Size is another matter. We're too small to do what the Devils did to the Flyers. Kunitz refuses to hit anymore. I mean, all those guys like Kennedy, Vitale, Jeffrey are are too small to punish the other team and they don't score nearly enough. Fine for the regular season, but pretty much inconsequential for playoffs. I thought Kennedy was on his way to eventually becoming a 30g/30a player, but that didn't happen. I don't like how this team is constructed. We are one of the smaller teams in the league and have no scoring depth. That's not going to work.

Defense is a question mark. I think that three years down the line, we'll have a superb group, but we have to position ourselves to win right now, not waste a year or two or perhaps three of Crosby and Malkin. If a couple of those young studs come in this year and prove they're ready, fantastic. I must question if the current group with only one guy replaced (Michalek) is able to have a better showing than last playoffs and, right now, I'm leaning to 'no'. I'm praying for one or two rookies sticking around and for a Martin trade.

As I recently said, I rank us #4 in the east, maybe even #5.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:07 pm

Oh. Tangradi. Let's make a poll. With what I've seen up to now from the guy, you can put me down for 3 goals over the first 40 games on Sidney's wing, 2 coming off his arse.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:13 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Oh. Tangradi. Let's make a poll. With what I've seen up to now from the guy, you can put me down for 3 goals over the first 40 games on Sidney's wing, 2 coming off his arse.


Surely you saw a greater upside with Tangradi than Kennedy, who you believed to be a 30g/60pt player...whether Tangradi hits it or not is a question to be sure, but there was never a shadow of a doubt that he had/has a higher upside than Kennedy. As for your tongue-in-cheek poll, I'll take the over...4 go in off his arse. :lol:
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:34 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:Oh. Tangradi. Let's make a poll. With what I've seen up to now from the guy, you can put me down for 3 goals over the first 40 games on Sidney's wing, 2 coming off his arse.


Surely you saw a greater upside with Tangradi than Kennedy, who you believed to be a 30g/60pt player...whether Tangradi hits it or not is a question to be sure, but there was never a shadow of a doubt that he had/has a higher upside than Kennedy. As for your tongue-in-cheek poll, I'll take the over...4 go in off his arse. :lol:


Well, I initially thought Tangradi was a steal and a top prospect, but what do I know. I haven't seen any glimpse of scoring upside with him since. I'm happy to see him get more involved overall and so maybe he can find a spot on line 3, but asking him to play with Sid and score... just my opinion, but I'm not really hopeful. I'll be rooting for him.:)
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:22 pm

steelhammer wrote:The fact that he produced ANYTHING after Malkin was injured should be worth something. 4 goals during that stretch for the Pens is probably like scoring 9 goals during a regular healthy stretch of games.


I agree he did well considering how little Staal, Kunitz etc managed through that period. I like Jeffrey and if he can regain health/form would be happy to see him in TK's spot (cheaper more versatile and as mentioned above could contribute to PK) but don't think his potential is as great as Tangradi's (I know I have no evidence for this!). Tangradi has the size advantage and should fill a spot on the PP as the net front guy regardless of which line he ends up on.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby pcm on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:19 pm

I like Kennedy, but not on this team anymore. I'm afraid that without Staal, Kennedy will look weak on the 3rd line. Give him a chance, sure... but I think the sandpaper upgrade for this team could come by upgrading that 3rd line. Or, another way to do that would be to acquire a top 6 winger and drop Dupuis down to the 3rd line, who I think would bring more to a shutdown line.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:57 pm

I don't think tangradi is going to play in the top six, but I don't think it's a big deal at all.

Some posters are really over-valuing crosby's winger. Cooke-Crosby-TK was a scoring line when he came back. Yes, not everyone can play with crosby, but crosby doesn't need a bobby ryan on his wing to have a productive line. Lack of scoring is not a problem for this team. They were out-coached and played stupid in the playoffs. There is no FA signing cure that will fix this problem.

Also, I don't even like TK and I constantly rip on him for his damn no-angle shots, but he is a fine 3rd liner. There are going to be holes on this team- just like every team- going into the season. Right now, I'm way more concerned about who will take Michalek's minutes than who is going to play on Crosby's wing.
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