Tangradi

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Re: Tangradi

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:49 am

Sarcastic wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Points to consider:
- The team tactics have gotten away from its previous hard-forechecking, battle-hardened cycling style...like I've said, we have transitioned to being the Washington Capitals late last year...nobody likes that...we're not using the players we've assembled at their best...Kunitz suffers as he's not a natural, organic offense creator. Perhaps it's part Kunitz, but I'm not sure he's allowed to play the same way as he did in 2009...


Whatever it is, we are not playing the same way. I think we were the 3rd best defensive team a couple years back. Played a tough game. What happened? Maybe we changed tactics somewhat, but I do think a lot of it has to do with the roster, as well, because we lost a lot of size and grit during that time. We were one of the biggest teans. We are now one of the smallest. Lack of size is a big issue with me.


Part of the problem is for so long teams played passive against us. down the stretch last year teams really opened up on us and it worked. I have used this example before but 2001 te steelers has the most dominant front 7 I have ever seen in a 3-4 defense.

They were unstoppable until cheat a check realized our defensive backs sucked and the flood gates opened.

Even though the pens won some games down the stretch teams were getting chances, nashville cycled us to death just missed chances, orher gea we starrted lookin pedestrian. Also fleury carried us for so long once his play dropped off even a bit we were doomed.

our defense might have simply been a product of team playing passive against our offense with or without Sid.

it's on for next season for other teams pushing us until we prove we can stop it.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:56 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Part of the problem is for so long teams played passive against us. down the stretch last year teams really opened up on us and it worked.


This is the symptom, not the problem.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:01 am

I see that we are back to blaming the defense. Is this team defense or our actual defensemen? If it's the latter, who should be cut and what should our d-pairings be next season? Feel free to use anyone under contract.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:12 am

steelhammer wrote:I see that we are back to blaming the defense. Is this team defense or our actual defensemen? If it's the latter, who should be cut and what should our d-pairings be next season? Feel free to use anyone under contract.


Team defense.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 am

MRandall25 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I see that we are back to blaming the defense. Is this team defense or our actual defensemen? If it's the latter, who should be cut and what should our d-pairings be next season? Feel free to use anyone under contract.


Team defense.


Yes overall team defense. When I say defense I am including how are forwards play.

Also just because there may not be a better solution to improving our defensive players at this point does not make the problem go away.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:44 pm

Zach6668 wrote:Do you think there needs to be more grit in the bottom 6 then? I mean, we won the Cup with a top 6 of Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin... guess Guerin was gritty, but not really more than Neal. Feds and Talbot, eh. Dupuis is about the same as either one, so we'd want someone to match that level of grittiness? I'm going a little far here, sure, but whateves. I guess swap in defensive-ness for grittiness, or some portion thereof too, as those are basically the issues I'd like to see addressed.


I think so. More size and/or grit in the bottom 6. Our top 6 will be perfect (if it includes Kunitz and Dupuis) once Shero gets a primary winger for Crosby. Sutter's fine in his role. Cooke. Who else do we have.... Glass should be fine. I honestly would entertain moving everyone else. If Kennedy can return to form, then he can be a nice piece on line 3 or 4, but I want more from him - he used to play really gritty. Tangradi is interesting because if he can build on last season and provide more of a tenacious game, he'll make me very happy. I just never saw enough meanness from him, so I don't know. I think we miss Rupp a lot. I'd like one more large winger for line 4.

Feds is gritty. Talbot is a nightmare to play against. Guerin certainly was (and why I never understood why they replaced him with a little guy like Sullivan). Kunitz played harder. Rupp. I'm probably missing more, but point is that I feel we had a tougher roster. Weren't we like one of the more fighting teams in the league, as well?

Although I feel we need changes in a lot of areas, I don't think there is a lot to be done, if that makes sense. If Tangradi and Kennedy play well, great. If a rookie or two on D step up, great. Maybe all we need is one scorer, one large dude, and one stud defenseman (which would send Martin out of town). It's very doable. Then if we still aren't playing well, I guess I'll ask for a new coach or something. :)
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:38 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
steelhammer wrote:I see that we are back to blaming the defense. Is this team defense or our actual defensemen? If it's the latter, who should be cut and what should our d-pairings be next season? Feel free to use anyone under contract.


Team defense.


Yes overall team defense. When I say defense I am including how are forwards play.

Also just because there may not be a better solution to improving our defensive players at this point does not make the problem go away.


But you can fix the problem with the current defensive players (forwards and D alike).
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Re: Tangradi

Postby columbia on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:40 pm

Can they?

I'm not being snarky....that's up to HCDB and there's nothing to indicate that he has a problem with his own approach.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:44 pm

columbia wrote:Can they?

I'm not being snarky....that's up to HCDB and there's nothing to indicate that he has a problem with his own approach.


Look at how they've played without Sid, or even before without both him or Geno.

This team can play defense. We've seen it before.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby columbia on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:51 pm

That's not the question, however.

Does HCDB believe that WITH both of those players, he needs to make adjustments?
I heard a lot of talk about the team getting to their game.

What the hell does that mean? The D pinching even more? The Fs making even more lackluster attempts to back check?

Every interview I saw during the Flyers series, HCDB seemed at a complete loss as to what to do.
Of course, we just needed to watch the games to know that.

EDIT: MAF staring off into space, thinking about what he had for lunch didn't help either.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Nizzy on Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:43 pm

columbia wrote:That's not the question, however.

Does HCDB believe that WITH both of those players, he needs to make adjustments?
I heard a lot of talk about the team getting to their game.

What the hell does that mean? The D pinching even more? The Fs making even more lackluster attempts to back check?

Every interview I saw during the Flyers series, HCDB seemed at a complete loss as to what to do.
Of course, we just needed to watch the games to know that.

EDIT: MAF staring off into space, thinking about what he had for lunch didn't help either.


It's why I think HCDB is actually in over his head. He's a career grinder and wants to coach a team of Grinders. His system is a lot of what Therrien already had the team doing. Was just a new "motivating" voice in 2009. Even a regular Joe will get sick of his boss everyday say "lets get to our game today team!" "get to it!!!" It will fail over time. It's annoying. He couldn't make any system changes vs the Flyers because he doesn't know anything else. Before 2008, just a few years ago he was grinding it out on the bottom 6 in the NHL. There's nothing that says he should already be a full time NHL coach.

He walked into the perfect situation at the perfect time in my opinion.

He'll be gone by christman. Then i'll be the champ around here. Not Mikey.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:31 pm

Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players...Larry Robinson, a top-tier defensive player has won as both player and coach, Tom Johnson - formerly Doug Harvey's partner - has the same distinction...journeyman defensive defenseman Al Arbour coached 1500 games at the NHL level and won 19 playoff series in a row with the Isles...Terry Crisp, part of a terrific checking line in both St. Louis and Philadelphia (in fact, in his 9 NHL seasons, he went to the Finals six times!) won a Cup as a player and coach...

Exceptions abound, but saying that a player jumping from being a grinder to a successful coach is out of place is...well...out of place...

I'd like to see more out of him and he'll be put to a major test trying to get a team back - that I feel he may have lost - this season...very challenging and a lot more rare...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Gaucho on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:12 pm

mikey287 wrote:Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players.


Exactly. It makes a lot of sense, too.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby The Snapshot on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:32 am

The team was fine until Sid came back. They loosened up and could never get it back. That is only partially Bylsma's fault. They were a Cup contender when they were playing his system even with Michalek and Martin still looking like idiots on a nightly basis. Michalek is gone, Despres is a lock - we are already much better on D.

The Goaltending, I have heard a rumor, was so bad that Xs and Os became meaningless, unless a coach designed system that surrendered 0 shots. It really was that simple, but that makes for one very short thread over the entire summer I guess.

Tangradi stinks. I find it funny that there is pessimism about so many topics around the team, yet this subject sparks cautious optimism? The Steelers final un-drafted FA signing merits as much discussion as Tangradi. He is nothing more than another AHL level player in the organization and people think he could be a top 6 winger.

I think Zac Sil is awesome. I heard he skated with a parachute attached to his waist this summer. :roll:
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Re: Tangradi

Postby bh on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:49 am

Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players.


Exactly. It makes a lot of sense, too.

But the question is can you consider Bylsma "heady"? I'm just not sure the answer to that one.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby bh on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:00 am

The Snapshot wrote:The Goaltending, I have heard a rumor, was so bad that Xs and Os became meaningless, unless a coach designed system that surrendered 0 shots. It really was that simple, but that makes for one very short thread over the entire summer I guess.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not... but I too question our goaltending. I just don't understand how year in and year out Fleury's stats suck compared to other goalies with similarly successful teams? He was 2nd in wins, 12th in GAA and 27th in save percentage!? How the heck does that happen?
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:12 am

The Snapshot wrote:The team was fine until Sid came back. They loosened up and could never get it back. That is only partially Bylsma's fault.


Up to the coach to keep players focused and on point. Exclusively on the coach. And if not him, then who?

The Snapshot wrote:Tangradi stinks. I find it funny that there is pessimism about so many topics around the team, yet this subject sparks cautious optimism? The Steelers final un-drafted FA signing merits as much discussion as Tangradi. He is nothing more than another AHL level player in the organization and people think he could be a top 6 winger.

I think Zac Sil is awesome. I heard he skated with a parachute attached to his waist this summer. :roll:


Identifying young talent? Difficult. Confusing Tangradi and Sill's upside? Intentionally misleading.
Last edited by mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:22 am

bh wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players.


Exactly. It makes a lot of sense, too.

But the question is can you consider Bylsma "heady"? I'm just not sure the answer to that one.


Very good defensively, a career penalty killer...very difficult to get those two distinctions without hockey sense...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:06 pm

mikey287 wrote:
bh wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players.


Exactly. It makes a lot of sense, too.

But the question is can you consider Bylsma "heady"? I'm just not sure the answer to that one.


Very good defensively, a career penalty killer...very difficult to get those two distinctions without hockey sense...


Agreed, which is why I tend to lean toward problems with the roster "a little more" than the coaching. I mean, I think that a smart player doesn't need a coach to tell him to play responsibly. Everytime I think of Martin chipping in on offense, leaving his entire side open to counterattack... how can I blame Bylsma for that? Or if our guys are unwilling or unable to push people out of the crease.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:33 pm

Because Martin didn't do that in New Jersey, even with more ice time responsibility. Martin was calm, cool, collected and was considered a very good #2 d-man in this league (thus the contract [and he took less to play here]). Now he's lambasted on a team that features Matt Niskanen/Simon Despres/Deryk Engelland/Ben Lovejoy as feasible starters...the game that Martin is being asked to play doesn't suit him, I don't doubt Martin is trying to keep up, but when you look at it from a GM's point of view: Martin's contract was for longer than a coach's life expectancy...who are you building your team vision around? Yourself (as GM) or your coach?
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:56 pm

mikey287 wrote:Because Martin didn't do that in New Jersey, even with more ice time responsibility. Martin was calm, cool, collected and was considered a very good #2 d-man in this league (thus the contract [and he took less to play here]). Now he's lambasted on a team that features Matt Niskanen/Simon Despres/Deryk Engelland/Ben Lovejoy as feasible starters...the game that Martin is being asked to play doesn't suit him, I don't doubt Martin is trying to keep up, but when you look at it from a GM's point of view: Martin's contract was for longer than a coach's life expectancy...who are you building your team vision around? Yourself (as GM) or your coach?


That's a good point. But if that's the case and he isn't a gamebreaker, just a steady guy you don't see much, then we should have never signed him at $5 million. He looks to me like a $3.5m second pair guy. I think Shero expected more out of him, just like I did.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:00 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Because Martin didn't do that in New Jersey, even with more ice time responsibility. Martin was calm, cool, collected and was considered a very good #2 d-man in this league (thus the contract [and he took less to play here]). Now he's lambasted on a team that features Matt Niskanen/Simon Despres/Deryk Engelland/Ben Lovejoy as feasible starters...the game that Martin is being asked to play doesn't suit him, I don't doubt Martin is trying to keep up, but when you look at it from a GM's point of view: Martin's contract was for longer than a coach's life expectancy...who are you building your team vision around? Yourself (as GM) or your coach?


That's a good point. But if that's the case and he isn't a gamebreaker, just a steady guy you don't see much, then we should have never signed him at $5 million. He looks to me like a $3.5m second pair guy. I think Shero expected more out of him, just like I did.


Have we learned anything from this year's FA signings?

In a world where Dennis Wideman is making $5.25 mil a year, Paul Martin's $5 mil looks like nothing.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:10 pm

- Hindsight is 20/20
- Gotta pay to play, if you want a big free agent in a league where the salary cap is always escalating better get one of those big novelty checks out...
- He was much better in New Jersey...I don't want to use such silly evidence, but on a poll from a (non-existant) other board that ranked the top-50 d-men league wide in July/August 2008, Paul Martin came in at 30th. Behind Braydon Coburn and ahead of Brent Seabrook. Obviously means nothing now (and maybe then) but it shows that he was well-regarded to whatever degree. This past offseason, he didn't receive any real votes for top-50 and likely would have been in the 75-100 area. I don't mean to use it as a hard-and-fast ranking, but it's a fair illustration of how he was regarded before he got here. By true numbers, he was considered a fringe #1 d-man; now maybe an average second pairing player. Hard to believe that Martin, himself, would fall off like that by himself from the age of 27 to 30 or whatever he is now...environment plays a role.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby tfrizz on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:47 pm

bh wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:The Goaltending, I have heard a rumor, was so bad that Xs and Os became meaningless, unless a coach designed system that surrendered 0 shots. It really was that simple, but that makes for one very short thread over the entire summer I guess.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not... but I too question our goaltending. I just don't understand how year in and year out Fleury's stats suck compared to other goalies with similarly successful teams? He was 2nd in wins, 12th in GAA and 27th in save percentage!? How the heck does that happen?


IIRC he was in (or close to?) the top 5 in GAA and the top 10 in save percentage at the all-star break.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:59 am

bh wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Bottom-six grinders and other heady, defensive players often make far superior coaches than flashy or offensive players.


Exactly. It makes a lot of sense, too.

But the question is can you consider Bylsma "heady"? I'm just not sure the answer to that one.


He coaches the way you'd expect a flashy offensive player to coach. He is the exception to the above rule.
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