Tangradi

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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:35 pm

mikey287 wrote:He was much better in New Jersey...I don't want to use such silly evidence, but on a poll from a (non-existant) other board that ranked the top-50 d-men league wide in July/August 2008, Paul Martin came in at 30th. Behind Braydon Coburn and ahead of Brent Seabrook. Obviously means nothing now (and maybe then) but it shows that he was well-regarded to whatever degree. This past offseason, he didn't receive any real votes for top-50 and likely would have been in the 75-100 area. I don't mean to use it as a hard-and-fast ranking, but it's a fair illustration of how he was regarded before he got here. By true numbers, he was considered a fringe #1 d-man; now maybe an average second pairing player. Hard to believe that Martin, himself, would fall off like that by himself from the age of 27 to 30 or whatever he is now...environment plays a role.


What I understand from reading comments from some Devils fans on HF and talking to a few friends of mine who happen to be Devils fans, I gather that it is not so much that he was better in NJ, but that the system he played in protected him better. Now that he came to Pittsburgh, he has not lived up to the bigger role he was asked to play. What are we supposed do, dumb down our system because he can't handle it? He did play really well at times last year, and I did stick up for him at one point, but he didn't do much for me in the playoffs. I know he said he had a shoulder problem or something. Maybe a valid excuse. But another thing I learned is that he also crumbled against the Flyers' physical game in a playoff series when he was on the Devils. I know hindsight is 20/20, but Shero should have known better. He had to know Martin's shot is so weak that a 5 year old girl could run up and grab it. How do you give him $5 million if you can't even put him on the PP? Nevermind the obvious lack of physical play. I think Shero rushed to sign a big name D without thinking how he would fit. Maybe opinion of Martin was better around the league, and I know it was, but you also have to look at a player's attributes and they're not there. I just hope he finds a home for him somewhere. It's not the end of the world and could be a good trade chip.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:51 pm

Pro scouting let us down there is what you're saying, and I don't disagree. He was better in New Jersey plus the system was better for him...being a top distributor and puck carrier really let him use his strengths...but yes, on his shots, you can read Gary Bettman's signature as it's going by, no question...pro scouts failed us. I'm assuming (probably incorrectly) that there will be some changes and alterations to the way we play, so hopefully they'll keep Martin's limitations in mind when doing so...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:03 pm

mikey287 wrote:Pro scouting let us down there is what you're saying, and I don't disagree. He was better in New Jersey plus the system was better for him...being a top distributor and puck carrier really let him use his strengths...but yes, on his shots, you can read Gary Bettman's signature as it's going by, no question...pro scouts failed us. I'm assuming (probably incorrectly) that there will be some changes and alterations to the way we play, so hopefully they'll keep Martin's limitations in mind when doing so...


I think a lot of this falls on Bylsma. Gonchar struggled mightily his first season with the Pens and then not just got better, but probably played the best all-around hockey of his career. In his second season, he played what was IMO the best positional hockey he ever has. I don't know if that was a testament to how good he really is or that the coach had a system set up that finally worked on all sides for him.

As you said, Martin was better in NJ's system, but a guy like him should be good in any system IMO and he simply could have had an off-season. However, it's still suspect to me that two players(Michalek and Martin) who are if anything, solid as can be in their own end both had rough seasons. I've said this before, but I think Bylsma doesn't have the ability to adjust. A great coach looks at what he has and creates a system around the abilities of his players and recognizes their limits. Orpik also played very sub-par...I'm sure part of that is his age and I'm sure years of playing the style that he does is catching up to him. If I'm the coach, I take a look at what my players are ABLE to do and either tweak the system or build one that works. If you have a team of players who aren't very fast or highly skilled puck movers, you're not going to create a system that is high flying, east to west hockey, so if you have defensemen who obviously flourish in a tighter defensive structure along with ones who may not have the legs for a specific system...why would you create a system that they can't handle or fits their style?

It's one thing to have players buy into a system, but it's another to try sticking a square peg in a round hole.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:33 pm

Without dissecting the entire post, yeah, ideally you have players that make a system and a coach that makes a system and it all works. But you don't always have that. You have kind of a two-sided argument...Martin should be able to be play better here AND Bylsma should make a system that fits him...now you have to ask yourself, are you getting a couple of bad apples that aren't fitting (Martin) and all the rest fit...or are many players suffering because of the system...tender balance...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:33 am

mikey287 wrote:Without dissecting the entire post, yeah, ideally you have players that make a system and a coach that makes a system and it all works. But you don't always have that. You have kind of a two-sided argument...Martin should be able to be play better here AND Bylsma should make a system that fits him...now you have to ask yourself, are you getting a couple of bad apples that aren't fitting (Martin) and all the rest fit...or are many players suffering because of the system...tender balance...


I was more posing a question with two variables. Take Martin, is he as skilled a defenseman as he's made out be, one that will thrive no matter where he goes or does he need be in a system that works for him? The caveat to that is, did he just have a bad season? Obviously either time will tell or he will be moved and on that team he will thrive because they have a system more suited for his style play.

What I was also trying to point out is whether or not whether it really lies on Bylsma. You say all the rest fit? By the rest, do you mean Letang and Niskanen? Michalek, Martin and Orpik all played poorly. Letang played well and Niskanen was pretty solid, but that's two out of our main core. Michalek and Martin, previous to joining the Penguins were as solid as they come. Could they have both just had bad seasons the same years? Sure, it's possible. Orpik also had a pretty weak season. Could that be age/injuries?

There are a lot of IFS here and again, only time will tell. If Bylsma is here to stay and Martin's play doesn't improve, then the Penguins need to move Martin. I really think Bylsma is behind more of the penguins problems than the players.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby offsides on Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:45 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
There are a lot of IFS here and again, only time will tell. If Bylsma is here to stay and Martin's play doesn't improve, then the Penguins need to move Martin. I really think Bylsma is behind more of the penguins problems than the players.


For what it's worth, I agree completely with this, but as you say only time will tell.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:27 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Take Martin, is he as skilled a defenseman as he's made out be, one that will thrive no matter where he goes or does he need be in a system that works for him? The caveat to that is, did he just have a bad season? Obviously either time will tell or he will be moved and on that team he will thrive because they have a system more suited for his style play.


Problem with Martin for me is what I referred to earlier, which is that he doesn't have the attributes to get better. He won't start shooting harder. He won't start hitting people or being more difficult to fight off in front of the net. So we can say that he may play better, which is true (in the sense he may be more steady and we all saw him be capable of that), but that still won't make him worth $5m in my eyes based on his style. For that much money, we should be able to put him on the PP, at least, but we can't even do that since he CAN'T SHOOT. Trade him and be done with it... imo.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Luckybreak on Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:56 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Take Martin, is he as skilled a defenseman as he's made out be, one that will thrive no matter where he goes or does he need be in a system that works for him? The caveat to that is, did he just have a bad season? Obviously either time will tell or he will be moved and on that team he will thrive because they have a system more suited for his style play.


Problem with Martin for me is what I referred to earlier, which is that he doesn't have the attributes to get better. He won't start shooting harder. He won't start hitting people or being more difficult to fight off in front of the net. So we can say that he may play better, which is true (in the sense he may be more steady and we all saw him be capable of that), but that still won't make him worth $5m in my eyes based on his style. For that much money, we should be able to put him on the PP, at least, but we can't even do that since he CAN'T SHOOT. Trade him and be done with it... imo.


Yeah, addition by subtraction. Problem is many see the potential returns of a trade as a step down from Martin and the other option is relying on rookies. Might get lucky with a guy few rated but plays well here, like Nisky (if you consider him better than Martin) or the rookies exceed expectations...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:27 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Take Martin, is he as skilled a defenseman as he's made out be, one that will thrive no matter where he goes or does he need be in a system that works for him? The caveat to that is, did he just have a bad season? Obviously either time will tell or he will be moved and on that team he will thrive because they have a system more suited for his style play.


Problem with Martin for me is what I referred to earlier, which is that he doesn't have the attributes to get better. He won't start shooting harder. He won't start hitting people or being more difficult to fight off in front of the net. So we can say that he may play better, which is true (in the sense he may be more steady and we all saw him be capable of that), but that still won't make him worth $5m in my eyes based on his style. For that much money, we should be able to put him on the PP, at least, but we can't even do that since he CAN'T SHOOT. Trade him and be done with it... imo.


In general, I just don't agree with anyone saying a player will, will not, can't, can't ever... Of course there are instances where this is true, but when you're talking about an established NHL player, one who is proven to be a top level NHL player?

The issue I have here is that you say he doesn't have the attributes to get better. The reason why I have an issue with this is these are what YOU view a player needs to do to get better. Why does Martin have to start hitting more? Why does he have to start shooting harder? This really isn't a personal issue with you, but many people on here seem to think to be a good dman you have to hit hard, play gritty, clear bodies and score...this basically describes Weber, Doughty, Chara and players like them. If every dman needed to do those things, this would be a very different NHL.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not exactly a Martin supporter. I've probably been one of his harshest critics on this board and was screaming for his trade. However, Martin was not brought in for his hitting or scoring prowess, he was brought in for his positional play and ability to move the puck(transitional game). When Martin is at the top of his game, he is next to none in his own end and ability to transition. I wanted him out of here, but admittedly I was probably a bit quick to jump. The reality is that Martin is going nowhere anytime soon.

Many fans(including myself) can be quick to call for a player's dismissal based on one bad year. I'm sure we all remember how everyone was kicking and screaming about Gonchar after his first season here. Martin has a proven track record and to say he can't get better is silly. Will he do the things you think he needs to be better? No, and he doesn't need to. He just needs to play his game and play it well and it will make the Penguins stronger.

The more I really look back on all the flack I gave Martin, I think that I was pretty foolish. Yeah, he played bad and I wasn't happy about it, but really looking back I feel it all exposes Bylsma's flaws, not Martin's.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:28 am

Hugo - because Martin is playing Mark Eaton's game while being paid as top D. That's when he's actually on and not making mistakes. We currently have 1 defenseman who provides any offense and only 1 who's a threat from the blueline. I hope that changes with the rookies.

I don't see anything valuable that Martin brings, other than the poke check. This is a guy who would avoid going after the puck into corners during the Flyer series. Let's just unload him to someone else, please.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby IMFC on Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:24 pm

Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:36 pm

IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby hockeymon on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:19 am

MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.



Correct!!
Plus i could count on one hand the times he pinched last year and no one was behind him to cover, and thats with two fingers off my hand.
There were times when he was the first one in the zone with four players behind him that still didn't cover. That is definetly a player / coach issue. And that would not be considered a pinch anyway.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:27 am

MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


If thats they case, its not Fleury's fault when he gives up 4-5 odd man goals in a game. Its not about blame...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby tfrizz on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:31 am

Tangradi signed a new contract today - 1 year, 2-way deal worth $726,000.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:34 am

Pitt87 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


If thats they case, its not Fleury's fault when he gives up 4-5 odd man goals in a game. Its not about blame...


It wouldn't be his fault...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby meow on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:34 am

hockeymon wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.



Correct!!
Plus i could count on one hand the times he pinched last year and no one was behind him to cover, and thats with two fingers off my hand.
There were times when he was the first one in the zone with four players behind him that still didn't cover. That is definetly a player / coach issue. And that would not be considered a pinch anyway.

It really is Martin's problem. You don't pinch if you don't have someone covering for you.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:35 am

meow wrote:
hockeymon wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.



Correct!!
Plus i could count on one hand the times he pinched last year and no one was behind him to cover, and thats with two fingers off my hand.
There were times when he was the first one in the zone with four players behind him that still didn't cover. That is definetly a player / coach issue. And that would not be considered a pinch anyway.

It really is Martin's problem. You don't pinch if you don't have someone covering for you.


How is he supposed to know if/when the forwards won't be covering?

It's the forward's job to cover if a d-man pinches. That's hockey 101.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:35 am

MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


You can't assume that. A forward in the offensive zone is watching the puck and the opposition defense. He can't keep an eye on his own d-men at the same time 100% of the time. Martin may just have terrible offensive instincts (would that be a shock) and pick the wrong times to pinch. In the eye of his teammates it may be a "you really pinched in that instance? Really?" scenario. The fact that he seems so bad at it leads me to believe the burden is mostly on him in this case. He's been burned that way too many times last season. I know I pointed out a few instances in the game threads.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:46 am

- A defenseman carrying a puck into the zone (as I've seen referenced, "first man in the zone") is not pinching. No one necessarily needs to "cover" for that because nothing questionable has happened yet. You have one man in the offensive zone.

- The system seems to encourage a lot of pinching to hold pucks in and keep plays alive...the forwards should know that most of the time the d-man is pinching and should be aware that covering the backside is a very real possibility on every shift...doesn't excuse poor pinches all around though, certainly, a bad play is a bad play...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby hockeymon on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:49 am

steelhammer wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


name two times when he pinched when someone wasn't already back covering for him last year. i might agree with you then.
i don't remember more than once or twice, no more, when he pinched when there wasn't already a forward back.
You can't assume that. A forward in the offensive zone is watching the puck and the opposition defense. He can't keep an eye on his own d-men at the same time 100% of the time. Martin may just have terrible offensive instincts (would that be a shock) and pick the wrong times to pinch. In the eye of his teammates it may be a "you really pinched in that instance? Really?" scenario. The fact that he seems so bad at it leads me to believe the burden is mostly on him in this case. He's been burned that way too many times last season. I know I pointed out a few instances in the game threads.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby meow on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:01 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
meow wrote:
hockeymon wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.



Correct!!
Plus i could count on one hand the times he pinched last year and no one was behind him to cover, and thats with two fingers off my hand.
There were times when he was the first one in the zone with four players behind him that still didn't cover. That is definetly a player / coach issue. And that would not be considered a pinch anyway.

It really is Martin's problem. You don't pinch if you don't have someone covering for you.


How is he supposed to know if/when the forwards won't be covering?

It's the forward's job to cover if a d-man pinches. That's hockey 101.

Only pinch when you are 100%. There are three scenarios when you pinch and you have to be 100% on one of them.
100% you can get the puck, make a play, and not turn it over.
100% you can eliminate the man that is going to beat you to the loose puck.
100% a forward is covering for you. If you aren't totally sure someone is covering for you, you fall back, play D and live to fight another day.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby steelhammer on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:32 pm

hockeymon wrote:
steelhammer wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


You can't assume that. A forward in the offensive zone is watching the puck and the opposition defense. He can't keep an eye on his own d-men at the same time 100% of the time. Martin may just have terrible offensive instincts (would that be a shock) and pick the wrong times to pinch. In the eye of his teammates it may be a "you really pinched in that instance? Really?" scenario. The fact that he seems so bad at it leads me to believe the burden is mostly on him in this case. He's been burned that way too many times last season. I know I pointed out a few instances in the game threads.

name two times when he pinched when someone wasn't already back covering for him last year. i might agree with you then.
i don't remember more than once or twice, no more, when he pinched when there wasn't already a forward back.


You messed up the format and made my quote rather obscure. Anyway, I'd have to go check all the game logs and quite honestly I have better things to do. I do specifically remember him doing this on several occasions and I'm sure others do (except for you apparently). He was a -11 by Nov 12th of last season.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:47 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
IMFC wrote:Only real problem I have with Martin is when he leaves his area and there's nobody to rotate back - either pinching on offense or helping out in transition - leaving some cherry picking scrub an easy oppotunity.

It seems like he's used to a system where forwards are expected to rotate back and with us he's just guessing.

It's like a safety that doubleteams the wrong guy and blitzes at the wrong time. If you can't figure it out, just stay put and play solid.


That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.


If thats they case, its not Fleury's fault when he gives up 4-5 odd man goals in a game. Its not about blame...


It wouldn't be his fault...


We still lose when it happens.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:51 pm

meow wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
meow wrote:
hockeymon wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:That's not really Paul Martin's fault if a forward won't drop back.



Correct!!
Plus i could count on one hand the times he pinched last year and no one was behind him to cover, and thats with two fingers off my hand.
There were times when he was the first one in the zone with four players behind him that still didn't cover. That is definetly a player / coach issue. And that would not be considered a pinch anyway.

It really is Martin's problem. You don't pinch if you don't have someone covering for you.


How is he supposed to know if/when the forwards won't be covering?

It's the forward's job to cover if a d-man pinches. That's hockey 101.

Only pinch when you are 100%. There are three scenarios when you pinch and you have to be 100% on one of them.
100% you can get the puck, make a play, and not turn it over.
100% you can eliminate the man that is going to beat you to the loose puck.
100% a forward is covering for you. If you aren't totally sure someone is covering for you, you fall back, play D and live to fight another day.


That's one coaching philosophy. A higher risk team, like our Penguins, do not play with such absolutes. Fundamental concepts and elements largely covered, practice doesn't necessarily match...doesn't account, for one, of quality of teammates/opponents...fine basics for youth development though.
mikey287
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