D pairings

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Re: D pairings

Postby Godric on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:17 am

helmespc wrote:.... at least we're not playing half a season with Alain Nasreddine as our #6 again.

Lol
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Re: D pairings

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:03 am

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/326 ... z2HZLVLaJl

I was optimistic when I read:

Ray Shero expects not to notice Martin all that much this season

But then top 4 pairings were confirmed:

Martin worked drills with Orpik, who coach Dan Bylsma said will be Martin‘s defense partner when the NHL season opens Jan. 19. (Expect Matt Niskanen to pair with Letang.)
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Re: D pairings

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:13 am

Despres was the best player on the team in November then got hurt and has struggled to fins his game after coming back in the last couple weeks.
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Re: D pairings

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:26 pm

4 definite (Orpik,Martin,Letang and Niskanen) make up our top 4 Leaving that log jam at #5 and #6, my move would be to move any of the logjam for a player you can pair with Engelland that is a big stay at home shutdown D man that can also PK. Obviously its going to be someone who is also a fringe NHL'r on another team, but maybe we can find a team that has a logjam of defensive D looking for some more well rounded D that we have. I not up on my scouting of other teams to make a suggestion, just wanted to share the notion of how I think we should round out our D.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Pens15 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:27 pm

From Dejan's Q&A today:

Comment From Matt in Ann Arbor: Why isn‘t Simon Depres being invited to camp? He proved he was NHL ready last year, regardless of his AHL stats this year. He‘d be #3 or #4 on this defensive corps.

Dejan Kovacevic: I‘m told the Penguins are robustly displeased with Despres‘s level of dedication. That‘s a big disappointment. This should have been a big season for him.
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Re: D pairings

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:00 pm

I would not be shocked or against moving Despres for a top 6 forward provided it's a good fit cap and chemistry wise looking at the depth we have behind him in Dumoulin, Morrow, Matta, Pouliot and Harrington.
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Re: D pairings

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:03 pm

Pens15 wrote:From Dejan's Q&A today:

Comment From Matt in Ann Arbor: Why isn‘t Simon Depres being invited to camp? He proved he was NHL ready last year, regardless of his AHL stats this year. He‘d be #3 or #4 on this defensive corps.

Dejan Kovacevic: I‘m told the Penguins are robustly displeased with Despres‘s level of dedication. That‘s a big disappointment. This should have been a big season for him.


To say the least, if that's true.
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Re: D pairings

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:36 pm

DelPen wrote:I would not be shocked or against moving Despres for a top 6 forward provided it's a good fit cap and chemistry wise looking at the depth we have behind him in Dumoulin, Morrow, Matta, Pouliot and Harrington.


As has been mentioned, Shero won't be getting another Neal for any of our defensive prospects until they've had a few years of NHL seasoning under their belt. The kind of players a Despres would get would be an over-the-hill UFA or a forward prospect at the the same stage in his career. Are there teams out their with a glut of forward prospects who could balance out their pipeline? I don't know.

As far as over-the-hill forwards go, it will be interesting to see what happens Iginla. He'd be the perfect rental for the Pens this year, as (1) they could afford his cap hit and (2) he fills their biggest need.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:10 pm

pcm wrote:
DelPen wrote:I would not be shocked or against moving Despres for a top 6 forward provided it's a good fit cap and chemistry wise looking at the depth we have behind him in Dumoulin, Morrow, Matta, Pouliot and Harrington.


As has been mentioned, Shero won't be getting another Neal for any of our defensive prospects until they've had a few years of NHL seasoning under their belt. The kind of players a Despres would get would be an over-the-hill UFA or a forward prospect at the the same stage in his career. Are there teams out their with a glut of forward prospects who could balance out their pipeline? I don't know.

As far as over-the-hill forwards go, it will be interesting to see what happens Iginla. He'd be the perfect rental for the Pens this year, as (1) they could afford his cap hit and (2) he fills their biggest need.

Not sure why people suggest this. Teams often trade quality players for highly-touted prospects. Playing in the NHL for "a few years" is not a requisite to have value. Heck, the center piece of a trade between Toronto and Vancouver for Luongo is Nazim Kadri, with rotating players as the second piece. Kadri has done squat -- but he is (or was) a highly-regarded prospect. With today's NHL and a shrinking salary cap, the value of young players -- particularly defensemen from a team that has a recent record of drafting them well -- is growing quickly.

I'm not suggesting there's a James Neal sitting out there that Shero can pluck for Despres, but it's not out of reason to suggest that he might be able to grab a young 50-60 point winger for Despres from a team with depth at wing and a dearth of defensemen.

And, for the record, people were saying the same thing ("Shero won't be getting ______ for Goligoski" and "Shero won't be getting ______ for Whitney"), yet he turned two "scrub" defensemen, according to those in these parts, into legitimate wingers that have been excellent additions to the team. No one here knows what Shero is capable of. No one here knows what teams think of the Penguins' defensemen. And no one here knows what trades are possibilities.
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Re: D pairings

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:42 pm

Perhaps I qualified my "over-the-hill UFA forward" too specifically, you're right. I should have said "suspiciously flawed or contractually-limited forward" instead. So yes, we could probably go out and swing a trade for a guy like Chris Stewart using Despres (if St Louis had a need for him), or Ryan Malone, or some such, who might possibly work out, but who brings big question marks with them. Or we could maybe get a solid UFA rental, but all the same, there's a big difference between a Goligoski or Whitney, both of whom were immediately inserted into their respective teams top 4, and Despres, who has barely shown a whit of what he can provide at an NHL level.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Pens15 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:43 pm

Defence21 wrote:
pcm wrote:
DelPen wrote:I would not be shocked or against moving Despres for a top 6 forward provided it's a good fit cap and chemistry wise looking at the depth we have behind him in Dumoulin, Morrow, Matta, Pouliot and Harrington.


As has been mentioned, Shero won't be getting another Neal for any of our defensive prospects until they've had a few years of NHL seasoning under their belt. The kind of players a Despres would get would be an over-the-hill UFA or a forward prospect at the the same stage in his career. Are there teams out their with a glut of forward prospects who could balance out their pipeline? I don't know.

As far as over-the-hill forwards go, it will be interesting to see what happens Iginla. He'd be the perfect rental for the Pens this year, as (1) they could afford his cap hit and (2) he fills their biggest need.

Not sure why people suggest this. Teams often trade quality players for highly-touted prospects. Playing in the NHL for "a few years" is not a requisite to have value. Heck, the center piece of a trade between Toronto and Vancouver for Luongo is Nazim Kadri, with rotating players as the second piece. Kadri has done squat -- but he is (or was) a highly-regarded prospect. With today's NHL and a shrinking salary cap, the value of young players -- particularly defensemen from a team that has a recent record of drafting them well -- is growing quickly.

I'm not suggesting there's a James Neal sitting out there that Shero can pluck for Despres, but it's not out of reason to suggest that he might be able to grab a young 50-60 point winger for Despres from a team with depth at wing and a dearth of defensemen.

And, for the record, people were saying the same thing ("Shero won't be getting ______ for Goligoski" and "Shero won't be getting ______ for Whitney"), yet he turned two "scrub" defensemen, according to those in these parts, into legitimate wingers that have been excellent additions to the team. No one here knows what Shero is capable of. No one here knows what teams think of the Penguins' defensemen. And no one here knows what trades are possibilities.


While you are right that nobody knows for sure what's out there, I think the general notion that unproven prospects won't fetch what we need is accurate.

Your Luongo example doesn't float. Lu is tainted goods due to his albatrossian contract and mediocre performance. The suitors for him are few so whatever he fetches doesn't compare to the kind of trade that we're speculating of.

Whitney and Gogo had a few years of NHL under their belts. They had both proven they could be very productive offensively. Realisitcally nobody is giving up a proven young player with any upside for an inexperienced prospect, except maybe the elite level prospecrs (which Despres isn't one of). It just wouldn't make sense. Prospect for prospect is more feasible, yet you rarely see deals like that. Older rental guy is about the only realistic return in a deal where Despres is the centerpiece.
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Re: D pairings

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:27 pm

Defence21 wrote:
pcm wrote:
DelPen wrote:I would not be shocked or against moving Despres for a top 6 forward provided it's a good fit cap and chemistry wise looking at the depth we have behind him in Dumoulin, Morrow, Matta, Pouliot and Harrington.


As has been mentioned, Shero won't be getting another Neal for any of our defensive prospects until they've had a few years of NHL seasoning under their belt. The kind of players a Despres would get would be an over-the-hill UFA or a forward prospect at the the same stage in his career. Are there teams out their with a glut of forward prospects who could balance out their pipeline? I don't know.

As far as over-the-hill forwards go, it will be interesting to see what happens Iginla. He'd be the perfect rental for the Pens this year, as (1) they could afford his cap hit and (2) he fills their biggest need.

Not sure why people suggest this. Teams often trade quality players for highly-touted prospects. Playing in the NHL for "a few years" is not a requisite to have value. Heck, the center piece of a trade between Toronto and Vancouver for Luongo is Nazim Kadri, with rotating players as the second piece. Kadri has done squat -- but he is (or was) a highly-regarded prospect. With today's NHL and a shrinking salary cap, the value of young players -- particularly defensemen from a team that has a recent record of drafting them well -- is growing quickly.

I'm not suggesting there's a James Neal sitting out there that Shero can pluck for Despres, but it's not out of reason to suggest that he might be able to grab a young 50-60 point winger for Despres from a team with depth at wing and a dearth of defensemen.

And, for the record, people were saying the same thing ("Shero won't be getting ______ for Goligoski" and "Shero won't be getting ______ for Whitney"), yet he turned two "scrub" defensemen, according to those in these parts, into legitimate wingers that have been excellent additions to the team. No one here knows what Shero is capable of. No one here knows what teams think of the Penguins' defensemen. And no one here knows what trades are possibilities.


Teams don't trade younger 25 goal scores or 60 point wingers for touted prospects that teams are not happy with. You may get an upcoming UFA at the deadline, but you can't move Despres for anything we need with an NHL chip to give and we don't have we can part with.
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Re: D pairings

Postby offsides on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:32 pm

This is hockey and we all know injuries WILL happen. To me, if we lose a couple of our top 4 D men, we will be in big trouble with the lack of proven D men in our system. Forget getting a winger for Sid, offense is not this teams problem. RS needs to get at least one proven NHL D man. IMO the defense is what let us down at the end of last season and the so called playoffs.
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Re: D pairings

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:07 pm

I apologize if I missed it in the thread but in his chat Dejan said that Lovejoy and DE will be the 3rd pairing, mark it down.
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Re: D pairings

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:14 pm

Plan the parade.
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Re: D pairings

Postby mikey287 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:25 pm

So...

Letang-Niskanen
Martin-Orpik
Lovejoy-Engelland

RHS-RHS
LHS-LHS
RHS-RHS

Neato. How do you expect a pinching defenseman to contribute to the cycle on his backhand, HCDB? Should be an interesting breakout...wait, not interesting, what's that other thing...tedious, yeah, that's it, tedious...

Alright Disco Dan, hope you and your staff know what you're doing...I also hope that Dejan knows what he's talking about...I find it odd that a team has decided their defensive pairings for opening night before training camp and before coaches can be on the ice with the players...
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Re: D pairings

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:27 pm

I don't know if it's possible to win a Stanley Cup with either of them on the ice, so maybe it just doesn't matter.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:29 pm

I'll believe it when I see it.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:31 pm

mikey287 wrote:I find it odd that a team has decided their defensive pairings for opening night before training camp


I find it odd that people believe they did.
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Re: D pairings

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:51 pm

Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I find it odd that a team has decided their defensive pairings for opening night before training camp


I find it odd that people believe they did.


Just saying what he reported, it doesn't sound right to me, but also how can you make decisions on a 6 day long training camp either with no game action?
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Re: D pairings

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:58 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I find it odd that a team has decided their defensive pairings for opening night before training camp


I find it odd that people believe they did.


Just saying what he reported, it doesn't sound right to me, but also how can you make decisions on a 6 day long training camp either with no game action?


Not a stab at you at all, I just don't think anything is set in stone as of yet. The purported combos seem odd to me, very odd indeed, but then again I'm not a coach.
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Re: D pairings

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:06 pm

Training camp is what, 5 days? It's not going to change anything in the mind of HCDB unless someone gets injured.
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Re: D pairings

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:12 pm

Gaucho wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I find it odd that a team has decided their defensive pairings for opening night before training camp


I find it odd that people believe they did.


Just saying what he reported, it doesn't sound right to me, but also how can you make decisions on a 6 day long training camp either with no game action?


Not a stab at you at all, I just don't think anything is set in stone as of yet. The purported combos seem odd to me, very odd indeed, but then again I'm not a coach.


Sorry dint think I was a dig at all, just in agreement with you either way that seems odd to go with them so quickly, they wouldn't barely give them minutes in the playoffs.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:15 pm

Yeah, I have a hard time believing they want to go into the playoffs with that bottom pairing.
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Re: D pairings

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 pm

Luckybreak wrote:http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/3265359-85/martin-penguins-season#axzz2HZLVLaJl

I was optimistic when I read:

Ray Shero expects not to notice Martin all that much this season

But then top 4 pairings were confirmed:

Martin worked drills with Orpik, who coach Dan Bylsma said will be Martin‘s defense partner when the NHL season opens Jan. 19. (Expect Matt Niskanen to pair with Letang.)


I guess not noticing him would be an improvement, but it wouldn't be good.
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