You are the GM

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Re: You are the GM

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:53 pm

This is a weird hypothetical.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Defence21 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I find it funny how people use Goligoski's and Whitney's NHL experience as reasoning for the return that came to Pittsburgh, and yet many of the same people (not necessarily you) were the ones ripping Whitney and Goligoski for being "garbage" and incapable of playing prominent roles in the NHL. Additionally, before either was traded, these are the people who were saying, "there's no way Shero gets anything of value for Britney or Golisukski."

If a team perceives Despres to be a good fit for its system and near NHL ready and has a surplus at a position, it could -- or would -- be willing to deal for Despres and give up quality to get him. And, by quality, we're not talking about a rental or an overaged veteran.

Am I saying such a trade is out there? No. I'm simply saying that a highly-touted prospect from a team known for its depth of defensive prospects very easily could yield a quality long-term top-six forward return. I'm thinking of a late-20s, 50-60 point winger. Some examples: Pacorietty, Wheeler, Burrows, Gagner, Versteeg, Weiss, etc. None are to-flight wingers, but all are quality and capable of helping this team.


Missed the point. the pont is you can't get what we got for those two if we traded while they were in the minors, not even close. And there are very few teams that would give up a 50-60 point winger for Despres or any of our dmen unless its the deadline and the situation is perfect. Everyone is tied for first place right now, and other than one to two teams making a round or two of the playoffs would go a long way financially.

Anyways what is the point of drafting tons of purely puck moving dmen if we are going to dump them off for dime a dozen forwards?

No, no. I got your point loud and clear. And I disagree with it. I'm not saying it will happen -- or even that Shero and the Penguins want it to happen. But I am saying it could happen and that it's far from illogical, as you and others suggest.

There are many teams out there right now that have no chance of competing in the short term, yet have a bright future. Of these teams, there may be one or two that have an abundance of wingers, quite possibly wingers that they realize won't be with them when they achieve success in a few years. They may see an opportunity to acquire a future top-pairing defenseman who may be a year away from the NHL (or more appropriately, from NHL success) by trading away a player they know will be gone in a year or two anyway.

Now, you mention that it is pointless to trading a puck moving defenseman for a dime a dozen forward. That's fair. But is a 50-60 point winger a dime a dozen player? Is Kunitz really that ordinary? He pots 50-60 points, hits, forechecks, plays quality defense, and compliments the league's best center -- while also showing an ability to play well with any linemates his partnered with. Just because a player "only" scores 50-60 points doesn't make him a dime a dozen player.

Obviously you disagree with my opinion -- and that's fair. We're here to discuss and disagree. But what I don't understand is why people who have seen Shero acquire some legitimate players for pieces that were perceived as complete garbage would rule out the possibility of Shero turning Despres (a highly touted prospect who is very near NHL ready) for a long-term, albeit not superstar caliber, scoring line winger.

Goligoski (third pairing, struggling, disliked in Pittsburgh) for Neal AND Niskanen
Whitney (hated by fans, diminishing skills, injury history at a young age in Pittsburgh) for Kunitz AND Tangradi
Armstrong (valuable third liner), Christensen (shootout specialist), Esposito (plumetting stock for two years) and a 1st rounder (very late) for Hossa AND Dupuis -- I will mention the caveat that both Hossa and Dupuis were rentals, and Hossa walked, while Dupuis re-signed

I would say 1/5 Pens fans would have expected any of these trades was possible. In fact, my guess is most likely would have laughed if any of these trades was suggested ahead of time on a message board like LGP -- yet Shero pulled them off by means of legitimate negotiation skills and because professional GMs and scouts for professional teams know much, much more about players and prospects than most fans could even dream of knowing.


It's not about a difference of opinion. It's that you are citing completely different scenarios as example. Regardless if fans liked Gogo or Whitney they were 3 and 5 years in the league, no chances from the other GMs. Neither were surprises in terms of what either team was getting. Specific assets were swapped.

Hossa was one minute left before the deadline and he was about to be a UFA.

Is there a GM dumb enough to trade a 60 point 29 year old winger for any of our prospects? Sure there are, but not many unless its the deadline, and right now unless a team is admitting they have zero shot they are not trading known assets for a prospect.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:07 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Hosea was one minute left before the deadline and he was about to be a UFA.



So, uh, what?
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Re: You are the GM

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:09 pm

Gaucho wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Hosea was one minute left before the deadline and he was about to be a UFA.



So, uh, what?


So, uh, it's not comparable to trading a prospect in the preseason.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby no name on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:17 pm

Remember guys all these blue chip defensive prospect are not worth anything without some NHL experience. Goligioski, Whitney, don't expect a return like thies guys got ya without a NHL game on their resume. Harrington, Morrow, Dumoulin and even Despese won't pull you in a quality return until they prove they are NHL ready. You will ony get a risk player in return, since that ius what you are giving up.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Defence21 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:13 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Hosea was one minute left before the deadline and he was about to be a UFA.



So, uh, what?


So, uh, it's not comparable to trading a prospect in the preseason.

You're now missing my point. I'm saying that we, as fans, have very little insight into what really goes into trades. You're saying that it's highly unlikely/impossible for the Penguins to get legitimate value by trading Despres now. I'm saying that you're wrong, because Shero has proven to get very good value from players who were perceived to have no value at the time they were traded. Regardless of experience (Whitney/Gogo) or timing of the trade (Hossa at the deadline) few would have expected Shero to get such good value for such low value assets.

You perceive Despres to have low value right now due to his lack of experience -- but who is to say that a team isn't out there looking for a long-term top-pairing puck moving defenseman to add to the roster? Who is to say said team wouldn't offer an established forward who wouldn't be with said team for the long haul?

We're simply talking trades. The pieces are irrelevant. Shero has proven in numerous scenarios that he is capable of getting value (if not flat out steals) for players/parts that are perceived by Penguin fans as having little/no value. This situation is no different just because Despres has no experience.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby pcm on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:14 pm

I fully believe that Shero can get "legitimate value" for Despres if he were inclined to trade him, just as he did for Whitney and Gogo. But the difference in that value between Despres and Whit/Gogo is significant. I was one of those who argued with mikey that Dallas would be interested in trading Neal for Gogo. I did not underestimate his value or perceived value in the league. Nor am I underestimating Despres' value when I say that the best we could get for him is a UFA, another prospect, or an obviously flawed NHL'er.

That's not a knock him; maybe the best thing for this team would be to put together a package to rent Iginla for a year? I don't know. Really though, we need him or at least one of these youngins' to step in and earn on a spot on the roster so that we're not talking about trading for a defensemen...
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Re: You are the GM

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:30 pm

For some perspective, here are some intriguing players who scored between 50 and 60 points last year:

Bobby Ryan
Evander Kane
Ryan Callahan
David Backes
Dustin Brown
T.J. Oshie
Paul Statsny
Gabriel Landeskog
Derek Stepan

If we can swing a trade for one of these guys with our prospects as the center piece, I will give RS all the credit in the world. Granted, if there is a GM in the league that could do it I think it would be Shero.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:34 pm

IMO, I don't think any of the guys you mentioned are readily available or would fit in the lineup (half are centers and/or captains of their team), save perhaps Bobby Ryan.

However, we don't have what it would take to get Bobby Ryan, given the information we had last year is the same.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:49 pm

Pens have cap space for this season and next to go get an expensive player...their cap problems will start in the '14-15 season with Malkin, Kunitz, Letang, Orpik, Niskanen and Vokoun set to become UFA's. That's why Martin's $5 million price tag is too much and will be gone prior to 14-15 season.

They are going to need two of Dumoulin, Despres, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, and Maatta to be the next anchors for this franchise as I'm not sure Orpik (32 yrs old now) is worth the investment in two years. The others will need to be turned into depth players or used as trade bait for forwards. I doubt Shero changes his ways anytime soon with regard to the draft.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:07 pm

Orpik will be 34 in 2014, so I don't know if he gets any more expensive. I hope not. Kunitz will be 35 and probably gone. He's not going to get what he gets now I would think. Vokoun will be 38. Niskanen may not be needed anymore. Too much speculation.
Last edited by Gaucho on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:10 pm

Gaucho - ....what you stopped with the old guys?
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:11 pm

Come again?
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:14 pm

I said you are old. You stopped with the old guys.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:16 pm

Well, retaining Geno and Tanger should be top priorities, of course. If that's what you were referring to, I'm a little tipsy...
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Re: You are the GM

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:17 pm

Malkin will probably be extended in the offseason for a similar cap hit to Sid (which is only about 300k more than what he's making now, and only if they don't have to restructure these deals).

IF the cap stays around 64.3 mil, I don't think we'll have to worry about those guys and our cap position. Letang will probably be a problem, but we're too far away ATM for me to gauge his value. It could go up or down depending on what he does this year and next, but if he were an FA today, he'd easily get $5-$6 mil, which would take up an extra 1.5-2.5 mil of cap.

It's also contingent on what happens this coming offseason. IMO we shouldn't really start worrying about the 2015 signing day until AT LEAST the beginning of next season, so we can gauge where the cap will be, and who we'll have at that point, because as of right now, we only have 4 players signed for that season.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby columbia on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Gaucho wrote:Well, retaining Geno and Tanger should be top priorities, of course. If that's what you were referring to, I'm a little tipsy...


It's all that gin.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Bowser on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:05 am

Gaucho - just messing with you.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:09 am

I'm sober again, so carry on. :wink:
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Re: You are the GM

Postby WhoDaresWins on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:14 am

MRandall25 wrote:Malkin will probably be extended in the offseason for a similar cap hit to Sid (which is only about 300k more than what he's making now, and only if they don't have to restructure these deals).

IF the cap stays around 64.3 mil, I don't think we'll have to worry about those guys and our cap position. Letang will probably be a problem, but we're too far away ATM for me to gauge his value. It could go up or down depending on what he does this year and next, but if he were an FA today, he'd easily get $5-$6 mil, which would take up an extra 1.5-2.5 mil of cap.

It's also contingent on what happens this coming offseason. IMO we shouldn't really start worrying about the 2015 signing day until AT LEAST the beginning of next season, so we can gauge where the cap will be, and who we'll have at that point, because as of right now, we only have 4 players signed for that season.


Why the assumption that Letang will be a problem? I've seen people talk about it like they know him (not you) and infer that he won't be easy to sign. If it's because of how much money he'll get - Shero has already identified his worth going forward so it's not going to be a surprise. A Trib article said that they're aware his salary could double. And next season probably won't come into play as Shero has said he wants to lock up Malkin AND Letang this summer. As for him as a person...he's never given anyone the impression he's greedy. He loves playing here. In fact, all he has said to date -

As for Letang: “Sid and Geno are going to be here. That is a good start, right?”

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/326 ... z2HrubnbEL
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Re: You are the GM

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:36 am

WhoDaresWins wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Malkin will probably be extended in the offseason for a similar cap hit to Sid (which is only about 300k more than what he's making now, and only if they don't have to restructure these deals).

IF the cap stays around 64.3 mil, I don't think we'll have to worry about those guys and our cap position. Letang will probably be a problem, but we're too far away ATM for me to gauge his value. It could go up or down depending on what he does this year and next, but if he were an FA today, he'd easily get $5-$6 mil, which would take up an extra 1.5-2.5 mil of cap.

It's also contingent on what happens this coming offseason. IMO we shouldn't really start worrying about the 2015 signing day until AT LEAST the beginning of next season, so we can gauge where the cap will be, and who we'll have at that point, because as of right now, we only have 4 players signed for that season.


Why the assumption that Letang will be a problem? I've seen people talk about it like they know him (not you) and infer that he won't be easy to sign. If it's because of how much money he'll get - Shero has already identified his worth going forward so it's not going to be a surprise. A Trib article said that they're aware his salary could double. And next season probably won't come into play as Shero has said he wants to lock up Malkin AND Letang this summer. As for him as a person...he's never given anyone the impression he's greedy. He loves playing here. In fact, all he has said to date -

As for Letang: “Sid and Geno are going to be here. That is a good start, right?”

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/326 ... z2HrubnbEL
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook


I dont think Letang personally will be a problem, nor do I think he wants to leave. What I do think is that the overall situation with our already signed/Malkin large contracts, the cap in the next few years and the likely hood of us having to snag some UFA's to fill out a decent roster, well you have to make decisions.

There is the possibility hypothetically speaking that the Pens could have say $34 million of a $60 million cap tied up in Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Neal and Letang. How that compares to the rest of the league or filling out a roster I honestly dont know.

But whether Shero has an idea of the dollar amount or not, it could be a problem signing Letang. In fact with our potential influx of defense its not beyond the realm that the Letang is the guy we end up trading in exchange for playing time to Morrow on his much smaller first year contract (as an example - not comparing anyone to Letang).
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Re: You are the GM

Postby no name on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:46 am

So what is everyone guessing Genos cap hit on his new contract will be. 8 yrs x per year.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:01 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Malkin will probably be extended in the offseason for a similar cap hit to Sid (which is only about 300k more than what he's making now, and only if they don't have to restructure these deals).

IF the cap stays around 64.3 mil, I don't think we'll have to worry about those guys and our cap position. Letang will probably be a problem, but we're too far away ATM for me to gauge his value. It could go up or down depending on what he does this year and next, but if he were an FA today, he'd easily get $5-$6 mil, which would take up an extra 1.5-2.5 mil of cap.

It's also contingent on what happens this coming offseason. IMO we shouldn't really start worrying about the 2015 signing day until AT LEAST the beginning of next season, so we can gauge where the cap will be, and who we'll have at that point, because as of right now, we only have 4 players signed for that season.

With the new CBA rules in place, Geno's cap hit is going to be at least 1.5 to 2 mil more than Sid's. if you match Sid's salary for the first six seasons, you are looking at a 11 mil cap hit, and even if you reduce his salary over the last two years you are still looking north of 10 million. The impact of this is dependent of course on what the cap will be moving forward.
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Re: You are the GM

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:03 pm

pens_CT wrote:With the new CBA rules in place, Geno's cap hit is going to be at least 1.5 to 2 mil more than Sid's.


Wha... did I miss something?
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Re: You are the GM

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:04 pm

Gaucho wrote:
pens_CT wrote:With the new CBA rules in place, Geno's cap hit is going to be at least 1.5 to 2 mil more than Sid's.


Wha... did I miss something?


The variance percentage max I think
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