Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:32 pm

Anything that trolls leaf fans is alright by me.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby tfrizz on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:33 pm

Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:41 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.


Valid point as well. We are more than happy to compare ratings but why not profits? Market size? Works both ways. Again I think our fan support is beyond great, to directly throw a shot a Toronto and call us the new hockey Mecca was stupid, unprofessional and troll like.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Pens4Life87 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:44 pm

Why cant folks just be happy Pittsburgh is a good hockey town.

Subjective comparisons on who the best city is for Hockey Supremacy is no better than school yard barbs.

My dad can beat up your dad.

I thought folks would evolve above this.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby tfrizz on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:46 pm

Pens4Life87 wrote:Why cant folks just be happy Pittsburgh is a good hockey town.

Subjective comparisons on who the best city is for Hockey Supremacy is no better than school yard barbs.

My dad can beat up your dad.

I thought folks would evolve above this.


I just want to be clear, I'm not trying to diminish Pittsburgh as a hockey town or how great Penguins fans are. I'm not even particularly fond of the Leafs or their fans, but I have to give credit where it's deserved.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby DudeMan2766 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:50 pm

Pens4Life87 wrote:Why cant folks just be happy Pittsburgh is a good hockey town.

Subjective comparisons on who the best city is for Hockey Supremacy is no better than school yard barbs.

My dad can beat up your dad.

I thought folks would evolve above this.


We're fans on a message board. The point was a professional representing our fanbase is the one throwing the comparisons and the shots and I just think it makes us look really bad.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:50 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pens4Life87 wrote:Why cant folks just be happy Pittsburgh is a good hockey town.

Subjective comparisons on who the best city is for Hockey Supremacy is no better than school yard barbs.

My dad can beat up your dad.

I thought folks would evolve above this.


I just want to be clear, I'm not trying to diminish Pittsburgh as a hockey town or how great Penguins fans are. I'm not even particularly fond of the Leafs or their fans, but I have to give credit where it's deserved.


I second that, I love the hockey following here. But can't stand Dejan and this article is so off base it make us look stupid.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:55 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:he is not claiming we are at a peak:

See, with all due respect to our Ontarian visitors in town, I dare say it‘s now plenty safe to posit that this golden little triangle, this most fortunate magnet to four of the greatest talents in NHL history … this is hockey‘s new Mecca


He directly claims we are the new mecca.


Maybe I miss understood it, but his very last line in the article says the Pens have been going up hill and are at the very peak right now.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:59 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.


So the Texans, Jets, Eagles, Ravens, Colts, Broncos are all better franchises than the Steelers? Steelers are only middle of the pack (ranked 14th) in value in the NFL.

Dejan states in the article no one can touch the Leafs in value, and even their fans are passionate. But he also points out the on the ice product sucks, and most outside of Toronto dont' care about the Leafs. A drought like they are going through, when do you ever see them on primetime TV? On national broadcasts? How often are the focus of the NHL?
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby MayorofD6 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:00 pm

I wish the Pittsburgh hockey media was as smart about hockey as the Pittsburgh hockey fans. Heard a local sportscaster call Tomas "Vulcan" the starting goaltender on Sunday, another called Orpik a "shutdown defensemen"--big hitter but hardly shutdown D man like Hal Gill and another blamed Michalek for the poor PK in the Flyer series. I remember three others plus MAF on the ice at that same time in those penalty kills.

The Canadian hockey media is head and shoulders above these so called local experts like DK.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:10 pm

newarenanow wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.


So the Texans, Jets, Eagles, Ravens, Colts, Broncos are all better franchises than the Steelers? Steelers are only middle of the pack (ranked 14th) in value in the NFL.

Dejan states in the article no one can touch the Leafs in value, and even their fans are passionate. But he also points out the on the ice product sucks, and most outside of Toronto dont' care about the Leafs. A drought like they are going through, when do you ever see them on primetime TV? On national broadcasts? How often are the focus of the NHL?


No because they carry 33% of the leagues profits, and he paint us specifically as some rabid base by comparing our down years ad sighting examples of crowd reaction.

I get your point but the focus of the article is not on us having players and getting primitime games, he lists pure examples of crowd support, fan support, good years and bad years.

If we go by what you are saying he meant and break down it has nothing to do with Pittsburgh, it's all Crosby running the league.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:14 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:If we go by what you are saying he meant and break down it has nothing to do with Pittsburgh, it's all Crosby running the league.


He specifically says Crosby, Malkin, Jagr, and Lemieux are a big part of it.

We can agree to disagree. I do think he goes over the top some. But at the same time, I dont' think his intention is the same as others think. And I do think he makes some great points.

The Pens and Pittsburgh have been very fortunate over the past quarter century and I think the support here has gone from luke warm to red hot over that time, and yes, part of that has to do with the extreme fortune of us having possibly 4 of the top players in NHL history.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Pucks_and_Pols on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:17 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.


You can state figures that the franchise is worth a kazillion dollars and I'll come back at you with two numbers:
1967
1938

Seriously, what other sports fanbase touts the franchise networth as their crowning achievement?
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:20 pm

That's not the point of the article Pucks. It's not saying the Pens are better than the Leafs (though they are), he's trying to say Pittsburgh is a better hockey place than Toronto, which is far, far from the truth, and the reason Frizz brought up monetary statistics.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby DudeMan2766 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:28 pm

Yes. Give the Penguins Toronto's history and this team is long gone. We were also fortunate the the franchises recent down years lasted about 4 seasons tops. And even in that small window Civic/Mellon Arena was a ghost town. LIke I said, my beef is I just havent liked the chest pounding thats been going on the last week since that Black/Gold game, and to call out Toronto, of all places, while they are in town so you konw it would garner attention was dumb. Yeah he got the attention, but he also looks like an ass and makes us look arrogant in the process.
Last edited by DudeMan2766 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:29 pm

Pucks_and_Pols wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:And to my point on Leaf Fans:
It is not just that they are know-it-alls, its that they want you to believe that they are the league's marquee franchise, when they never win anything.


Since the league doesn't release official numbers, we'll have to lean back on the guesstimates provided by Forbes here. Link

the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income


Let's do the math: 83% * 81.9 / (81.9 + 74 + 51.6) = 32.76%

So, according to Forbes, the Maple Leafs are responsible for almost 33% of the NHL's profits.

Toronto Maple Leafs Are First Hockey Team Worth $1 Billion


Also, as the headline states, the Leafs have become the first hockey team to ever be valued a $1-billion by Forbes.



We all understand that Forbes' numbers may be heavily disputed, but this does illustrate just how Leafs fans believe their team is the marquee franchise in the NHL - it's because they are. There's no more concrete proof of this than the consistent success the Leafs have financially despite a total absence of success on the ice.


You can state figures that the franchise is worth a kazillion dollars and I'll come back at you with two numbers:
1967
1938

Seriously, what other sports fanbase touts the franchise networth as their crowning achievement?


They were not touting, it was Dejen that was touting. In my mind he was so wrong it's laughable, buts that just me. He wasn't comparing teams, he was comparing fan bases and the like.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Pucks_and_Pols on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:31 pm

MRandall25 wrote:That's not the point of the article Pucks. It's not saying the Pens are better than the Leafs (though they are), he's trying to say Pittsburgh is a better hockey place than Toronto, which is far, far from the truth, and the reason Frizz brought up monetary statistics.


My point (and DK's article gets to this as well) is that the Toronto Maple Leafs cannot be considered the marquee franchise of the league when they never win anything of significance. They are the only one of the "old six" teams to have not won a cup, or even been to a final, since the league expanded to 12 teams in 1967. I am not arguing that Toronto does not have great hockey fans, just that their sense of their local teams importance in the sport is way over the top. They can print money, but they can't utilize their franchises financial advantage to impact where it matters most to fans: on the ice.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby meow on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:31 pm

I can see arguing that Pittsburgh is the NHL Mecca, but hockey Mecca, yea right. The NHL is not the be-all and end-all of hockey.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby GaryRissling on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:42 pm

What specifically makes this a remarkably ridiculous column is the fact that he supports his argument that Pittsburgh has supplanted Montreal and Toronto as hockey's new Mecca by citing stats that the leafs kill us on. Namely: sell-out streaks, season ticket waiting lists, local tv ratings, and regional popularity.

I just want to be clear that my opinion on this in no way diminishes the fact the the Toronto fan base are a bunch of classless ****.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:48 pm

Pucks_and_Pols wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:That's not the point of the article Pucks. It's not saying the Pens are better than the Leafs (though they are), he's trying to say Pittsburgh is a better hockey place than Toronto, which is far, far from the truth, and the reason Frizz brought up monetary statistics.


My point (and DK's article gets to this as well) is that the Toronto Maple Leafs cannot be considered the marquee franchise of the league when they never win anything of significance. They are the only one of the "old six" teams to have not won a cup, or even been to a final, since the league expanded to 12 teams in 1967. I am not arguing that Toronto does not have great hockey fans, just that their sense of their local teams importance in the sport is way over the top. They can print money, but they can't utilize their franchises financial advantage to impact where it matters most to fans: on the ice.


Nobody considers them that though in that way, they are marquee in terms of fan support and its not in the same universe as us. he is painting us in an inflated light. I mean we can make fun of Toronto for no cups, but we won two and went bankrupt 7 years later.

If they had Sid (trust me we should get zero credit for that draft pick), well heck I can't begin to tell you what would happen to hockey. It's not the same and the article is stupid, and we look like jerk offs to other cities.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:43 pm

How many Trib writers have taken shots at Detroit for calling itself hockeytown?
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:46 pm

Is there anyone here that remembers the Leafs winning the cup?

Maybe just geezer and offsides.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Tim Thomasen on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:16 pm

MayorofD6 wrote:I wish the Pittsburgh hockey media was as smart about hockey as the Pittsburgh hockey fans. Heard a local sportscaster call Tomas "Vulcan" the starting goaltender on Sunday, another called Orpik a "shutdown defensemen"--big hitter but hardly shutdown D man like Hal Gill and another blamed Michalek for the poor PK in the Flyer series. I remember three others plus MAF on the ice at that same time in those penalty kills.

The Canadian hockey media is head and shoulders above these so called local experts like DK.


It's gotten better though. I have a homamade DVD of Penguin fights from the 87-88 season. There was a fight at the Civic Arena where a fan threw a drink at either Brendan Shanahan or John MacLean where both of them threw to get over the penalty box class and get into the stands (all while fans were throwing debris and two jags egging them on). The DVD also showed a news clip from WTAE about the incident and the reporter Greg McCampbell said "Even some of the fans don't like to see the fights, but isn't that what hockey is all about"? So it has improved believe it or not to the point where the media doesn't see hockey as wrestling on skates.

I get what Dejan is saying but he should shut up. Pittsburgh is no where near as passionate towards hockey as people in Canada are (and outside of a few USA cities, not msny US cities are either) but don't sell this city short, there is a pretty good market for hockey when your not comparing it towards cities in Canada like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver etc. We get decent media coverage, attendance has been good (and half decent in the lean years)and there has mostly have been a buzz for this team.

Yeah alot of it has to do with the star power, but as Madden says in Pittsburgh where the Steelers brand sells itself, you need a star or competitive team and as long as that happens well be okay. People bring up those leans year from 01-02 to 03-04 but with all the negative things that were going on with that club why would you want to go to games? The team had so stars and the roster they had most of them had to business in the ECHL let alone the NHL and the talent we had (like Orpik and MAF) were raw and undeveloped, we had a GM who clearly lost his touch at being a good GM, the team played in a dump, we had the arena issue hanging over the team like a dark cloud and no one knew the future of the NHL with a potential lockout. All those factors are good reasons why fans stayed away.

A lot has changed since them. A new favorable CBA for the team, a good GM, good players and most importantly something the team has needed for years: a brand new building. As a result, management has been able to do more with this club then they could do pre 03-04. Which has resulted in things to get more people in hockey in general like the Three Rivers Classic and getting the Frozen Four.

For how much the Wings get credited for being a hockeytown (and rightfully so), there was a period in the 70's I believe where the team was horrible and the club had to beg people to come to games. That all changed when Mike Illitch bought the team and rebult the team from top to bottom to where you see it today.

I'm just saying that this sport is nowhere near as passionate as people in Canads is, but not sell this market short, there is a place for hockey in the hearts of Pittsburghers and has a good following for hockey.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:36 pm

Look, Pittsburgh will never be the marquee franchise in hockey. We are a pretty small market when you compare Pittsburgh to LA, NY, Montreal, Toronto, etc. Think of how much love the Rangers would get if they won a few Cups and had a player like Crosby. It would be absolutely crazy. Pittsburgh just will never generate the revenues some of these teams make, and that's okay.

Off the ice, we will never be a Toronto. On the ice, Toronto can't hold a candle to Pittsburgh's run over the last 25 years. I'll take the latter than the former any day. The Stanley Cups, the Art Ross trophies, the Hart trophies. When you look and see that we've had 4 generational talents start their careers in Pittsburgh in the last two decades you have to acknowledge that in terms of on-ice relevance we're as close to the top as you can get.
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Re: Pittsburgh - Hockey's new "Mecca"

Postby Tim Thomasen on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:46 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Look, Pittsburgh will never be the marquee franchise in hockey. We are a pretty small market when you compare Pittsburgh to LA, NY, Montreal, Toronto, etc. Think of how much love the Rangers would get if they won a few Cups and had a player like Crosby. It would be absolutely crazy. Pittsburgh just will never generate the revenues some of these teams make, and that's okay.

Off the ice, we will never be a Toronto. On the ice, Toronto can't hold a candle to Pittsburgh's run over the last 25 years. I'll take the latter than the former any day. The Stanley Cups, the Art Ross trophies, the Hart trophies. When you look and see that we've had 4 generational talents start their careers in Pittsburgh in the last two decades you have to acknowledge that in terms of on-ice relevance we're as close to the top as you can get.


LA really isn't one of the flagship cities in the NHL. Sure there was a clammoring for ticket packages and stuff after they won the cup. Before they, they were hardly relevent compared to the Dodgers or Lakers in that town.

Plus they have had problems drawing fans as well. They were getting less then 10,000 before Gretzky came along. LA is no different from most US hockey cities where you need a star or a good team to sell tickets. Not to mention LA in the finals drew poor ratings (along with the Devils) so just because it's a larger city than Pittsburgh doesn't make it any better when it comes to drawing interest in hockey.

Could that change? Yes it could but I don't think that city can hold a candle either to the Canadian cities or a city like NY. As for this market, guess you forgot the clamoring and momentum we got when we got Lemieux and Crosby and the interest drawn from that and the fact the team eventually got good and drew a interest. Like a said above, don't sell this market short. This is a important market in the NHL believe it or not. The NHL knew there was a interest in the team and if they get a new arena and a team that's not full of deadweight like Fata and Koltsov that the fans would come out in droves. That's why the NHL fought to keep the team here instead of shipping it out to KC because Pittsburgh was proven and passionate as well, while KC was foreign to NHL hockey and would view it as a novelity more than anything.

We may not have the size the larger cities have, but make no mistake: This market is important to the NHL because it's been proven and they know people here care about this team.

But I agree, we may not have the passion Leaf fans have that it's to the point where they paid extreme prices to watch a mediocre team, but in terms of success and relevence over the last 20+ years, they got nothing on us and i'll take that any day of the week.
Last edited by Tim Thomasen on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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