Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:08 pm

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'd do Dustin Jeffrey and a conditional 3rd for Pierre-Marc Bouchard. Wild fans wouldn't be too unhappy with that return either, as they are just having trouble using him,. Bouchard plays the right wing well and can play the point on the power play.


With all due respect mikey, and I love your stuff around here. Bouchard looks on-par with Kennedy this year. Looks like another Kennedy, maybe just injury prone. I think the only way I sent DJ off, is if he gets a good 25 games and fails. Before his injury DJ looked like a solid productive 3rd liner.


There's no confusing PMB and TK...Bouchard exudes skill, patience, poise and precise passing with the puck. Kennedy, God bless him, doesn't have most or all of those things.

When you say "looks like another Kennedy" can you elaborate on that because it's legitimately confusing to me, with all due respect...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby shmenguin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:27 pm

they're both 5'11. duuuuuuhh
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Luckybreak on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:21 pm

shmenguin wrote:they're both 5'11. duuuuuuhh


If, as Mikey said, Bouchard is adept at distributing the puck and has a somewhat diminutive frame, are we not looking at a younger more injury prone ( :shock: ) Sullivan? And whilst the 'waterbug' was fun to watch dipsy doodling about with the puck it didn't get us far in the playoffs.

A total of 27 hits over 5 seasons isn't exactly the 'tough to play against' player model GMRS once seemed to be following, in fact he seems to be gradually down-sizing...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:49 pm

Under normal circumstances, Luckybreak, I wouldn't pose such an offer because it's not a Penguins move. But we're not the same team we were in 2008 and 2009. We used to be a Snickers bar made almost entirely of peanuts, we had some softer, creamier parts (Sykora, Gonchar). Now, we're a Three Musketeers bar pretty much...maybe a stale one, as we have some crunch on the bottom side with Tanner Glass and whoever...but it doesn't look like we're building the same thing as before...note: 6'4", 225 lb. Tangradi out, 5'2" 80 lb. Boychuk in. If we were going to be a board-playing, cycling, hard team to play against, we'd be making personnel moves that mimic that mantra.

Thus, PMB - if he can be had for a song - wouldn't be a bad choice. If we're looking for skill over substance, Butchy boy is it...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Nizzy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:04 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'd do Dustin Jeffrey and a conditional 3rd for Pierre-Marc Bouchard. Wild fans wouldn't be too unhappy with that return either, as they are just having trouble using him,. Bouchard plays the right wing well and can play the point on the power play.


With all due respect mikey, and I love your stuff around here. Bouchard looks on-par with Kennedy this year. Looks like another Kennedy, maybe just injury prone. I think the only way I sent DJ off, is if he gets a good 25 games and fails. Before his injury DJ looked like a solid productive 3rd liner.


There's no confusing PMB and TK...Bouchard exudes skill, patience, poise and precise passing with the puck. Kennedy, God bless him, doesn't have most or all of those things.

When you say "looks like another Kennedy" can you elaborate on that because it's legitimately confusing to me, with all due respect...


Kennedys Sullivans Bouchards

some might be slightly better, some might have other talents, neither are that amazing...does this team really need a Bouchard? I wouldn't mind a TK-MB switch, because they both might need a change. I just would rather have Jeffrey going forward than Bouchard.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby largegarlic on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:04 pm

I don't think Cooke is the answer for the Malkin line, but I think his stint there last game showed what the answer looks like. On Neal's 2nd goal, Cooke got in on the forecheck, created a turnover, and then got to the front of the net to create some confusion, resulting in Neal knocking in a loose puck. It's a simple formula, but one that none of the other options (Tangradi, Kennedy, Boychuk, and Jeffrey) were particularly suited for. Kunitz worked well on that line because he did that exact thing, plus he has a bit more skill than Cooke.

Basically, that leads me to think we should be looking for another Kunitz. It would also be helpful if any new winger had some intensity combined with the veteran ability to settle things down when needed. It seems like Iginla would be ideal (and obviously an upgrade to Kunitz), but I think he would cost too much. I don't know what other Kunitz-like options are out there.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:17 pm

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'd do Dustin Jeffrey and a conditional 3rd for Pierre-Marc Bouchard. Wild fans wouldn't be too unhappy with that return either, as they are just having trouble using him,. Bouchard plays the right wing well and can play the point on the power play.


With all due respect mikey, and I love your stuff around here. Bouchard looks on-par with Kennedy this year. Looks like another Kennedy, maybe just injury prone. I think the only way I sent DJ off, is if he gets a good 25 games and fails. Before his injury DJ looked like a solid productive 3rd liner.


There's no confusing PMB and TK...Bouchard exudes skill, patience, poise and precise passing with the puck. Kennedy, God bless him, doesn't have most or all of those things.

When you say "looks like another Kennedy" can you elaborate on that because it's legitimately confusing to me, with all due respect...


Kennedys Sullivans Bouchards

some might be slightly better, some might have other talents, neither are that amazing...


Well, listen, here's what I'll do...and I hate doing this because it's not a proper means to evaluate a player at all. But since I don't think you've experienced what Pierre-Marc Bouchard can do, I'll post this for your perusal...



If you still don't see a difference between him and Tyler Kennedy, then maybe we ought to buy you a basketball... :P

And in that video, they don't even show off Bouchard's best quality which is his passing ability. He makes one pass in the whole thing I think...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby BleuLineLady on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Cooke is not a top 6 forward atleast not for any extended period of time. Pierre Marc Bouchard is a more offensively skilled player than Kennedy, this is without question. He has posted 4 seasons with more 50 pts, 1 with over 60 pts. Kennedy's highest is 45. PMB is a better player, but more injury prone. I wouldnt want him on the team. For right now this is how I would sort the lineup:

Dupuis-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Boychuk/Kennedy (alternate games, see who plays better)
Adams Vitale Glass


If they make a trade for a top 6 forward, in my opinion, if its not Iginla, maybe Brenden Morrow, would be the best forward out there maybe at the deadline. I wouldnt also mind seeing Shero go after Kulemin.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:23 pm

That 1 on 4 goal was vintage Kennedy. :pop:
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:25 pm

Morrow is pretty bad right now, Dallas is kind of marginalizing him from the lineup. He got involved in that circus game against Calgary the other night, but otherwise, he's been pretty awful this year and last too for that matter...he just can't accept passes...which would be one of his chief duties here...

It's a shame Kulemin appears to be so valuable to the Leafs, I've always coveted him.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Defence21 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:09 pm

mikey287 wrote:Morrow is pretty bad right now, Dallas is kind of marginalizing him from the lineup. He got involved in that circus game against Calgary the other night, but otherwise, he's been pretty awful this year and last too for that matter...he just can't accept passes...which would be one of his chief duties here...

It's a shame Kulemin appears to be so valuable to the Leafs, I've always coveted him.

I don't care how much Morrow has regressed, I would be THRILLED if my all-time favorite non-Penguin laced up for the Penguins, even for just a post-deadline/playoff stint. Maybe he's another Bill Guerin second-wind type?
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:12 pm

Defence21 wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Morrow is pretty bad right now, Dallas is kind of marginalizing him from the lineup. He got involved in that circus game against Calgary the other night, but otherwise, he's been pretty awful this year and last too for that matter...he just can't accept passes...which would be one of his chief duties here...

It's a shame Kulemin appears to be so valuable to the Leafs, I've always coveted him.

I don't care how much Morrow has regressed, I would be THRILLED if my all-time favorite non-Penguin laced up for the Penguins, even for just a post-deadline/playoff stint. Maybe he's another Bill Guerin second-wind type?



People (including me) wanted AK27 to come back (for the sake of nostalgia).
Yeah....not so great.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Defence21 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:14 pm

columbia wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Morrow is pretty bad right now, Dallas is kind of marginalizing him from the lineup. He got involved in that circus game against Calgary the other night, but otherwise, he's been pretty awful this year and last too for that matter...he just can't accept passes...which would be one of his chief duties here...

It's a shame Kulemin appears to be so valuable to the Leafs, I've always coveted him.

I don't care how much Morrow has regressed, I would be THRILLED if my all-time favorite non-Penguin laced up for the Penguins, even for just a post-deadline/playoff stint. Maybe he's another Bill Guerin second-wind type?



People (including me) wanted AK27 to come back (for the sake of nostalgia).
Yeah....not so great.

Ah, but this isn't nostalgia. This is man-crush. Big difference.

(except that it's exactly the same in terms of talent evaluation)
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Beveridge on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:14 pm

columbia wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Morrow is pretty bad right now, Dallas is kind of marginalizing him from the lineup. He got involved in that circus game against Calgary the other night, but otherwise, he's been pretty awful this year and last too for that matter...he just can't accept passes...which would be one of his chief duties here...

It's a shame Kulemin appears to be so valuable to the Leafs, I've always coveted him.

I don't care how much Morrow has regressed, I would be THRILLED if my all-time favorite non-Penguin laced up for the Penguins, even for just a post-deadline/playoff stint. Maybe he's another Bill Guerin second-wind type?



People (including me) wanted AK27 to come back (for the sake of nostalgia).
Yeah....not so great.



Didn't help that his center was Letestu for most of that comeback.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Luckybreak on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:32 pm

mikey287 wrote:Under normal circumstances, Luckybreak, I wouldn't pose such an offer because it's not a Penguins move. But we're not the same team we were in 2008 and 2009. We used to be a Snickers bar made almost entirely of peanuts, we had some softer, creamier parts (Sykora, Gonchar). Now, we're a Three Musketeers bar pretty much...maybe a stale one, as we have some crunch on the bottom side with Tanner Glass and whoever...but it doesn't look like we're building the same thing as before...note: 6'4", 225 lb. Tangradi out, 5'2" 80 lb. Boychuk in. If we were going to be a board-playing, cycling, hard team to play against, we'd be making personnel moves that mimic that mantra.

Thus, PMB - if he can be had for a song - wouldn't be a bad choice. If we're looking for skill over substance, Butchy boy is it...


Ha, I like the analogy (though being in England I had to look up what a Three Musketeers bar was!). Whilst I agree that he is a good player and a genuine top 6 guy I'm not sure he is the right fit (irrespective of the direction the team is going). By this I mean the Malkin-Neal line seems to have more success with a Kunitz type as mentioned above, Kunitz being the obvious option there IMO. So if Shero is targetting someone for Sid's or Geno's wing to replicate Kuny? And where is Bennett being pencilled in long term?
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:03 pm

Luckybreak wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Under normal circumstances, Luckybreak, I wouldn't pose such an offer because it's not a Penguins move. But we're not the same team we were in 2008 and 2009. We used to be a Snickers bar made almost entirely of peanuts, we had some softer, creamier parts (Sykora, Gonchar). Now, we're a Three Musketeers bar pretty much...maybe a stale one, as we have some crunch on the bottom side with Tanner Glass and whoever...but it doesn't look like we're building the same thing as before...note: 6'4", 225 lb. Tangradi out, 5'2" 80 lb. Boychuk in. If we were going to be a board-playing, cycling, hard team to play against, we'd be making personnel moves that mimic that mantra.

Thus, PMB - if he can be had for a song - wouldn't be a bad choice. If we're looking for skill over substance, Butchy boy is it...


Ha, I like the analogy (though being in England I had to look up what a Three Musketeers bar was!). Whilst I agree that he is a good player and a genuine top 6 guy I'm not sure he is the right fit (irrespective of the direction the team is going). By this I mean the Malkin-Neal line seems to have more success with a Kunitz type as mentioned above, Kunitz being the obvious option there IMO. So if Shero is targetting someone for Sid's or Geno's wing to replicate Kuny? And where is Bennett being pencilled in long term?


1. I did think about whether you have the eclectic mix of over-priced chocolate bars that we have...but I figured they were big enough candy names for you guys to have them...maybe it's just called something else over there. On that note, I was watching some hockey games on Premier Sports recently and there was a McDonald's commercial for this breakfast wrap that had a "potato rusty" (or that's what it sounded like at least) on it...they aren't called hash browns there? I've never heard the term potato rusty before, it sounds foul...

2. I don't disagree that the Malkin/Neal duo could use someone like Kunitz because someone like Kunitz doesn't need to touch the puck. Look at the line, Neal and Malkin just pass it back and forth to each other and shoot...Kunitz can pick up trash and do board work and stuff like that...it really is a shame that Tangradi couldn't do that, because we didn't need a lot of skill on that LW...the line is chock full of it already...Boychuk just skates around looking tense so people think that he's busy, but really, he's not doing anything either...he just skates around in a circle out there...

3. It's hard to tell what Shero's doing at this point. It seems like an organizational audit(ion) from top to bottom, which might include Bylsma, might not. I guess we'll see at the trade deadline exactly what Shero has in mind. It doesn't look like we're going to be grinding out a cycle again, maybe the organization thought that was too much wear and tear...I'm not sure that the coaching staff trusts our d-men to be jumping into these plays either...so we'll see what we become soon enough I guess...I have a feeling we're just going to try to add "attributes" at the deadline. I'm not sure that they'll have a direct purpose in mind. They'll look at the depth chart and go, "we need a physical, defensive d-man" and go find that...as opposed to going, "we could use a 6'3", RHS winger for Crosby that can stay with us long term" I think they'll just go for a skill grab and hope that the coaching staff can make good use of it...we'll see...

4. I'm slightly jealous that you get to use words that my editors/professors over the years have all but barred me from using: "amongst", "whilst" and "irrespective" ...a trifle shame...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Luckybreak on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:39 pm

mikey287 wrote:1. I did think about whether you have the eclectic mix of over-priced chocolate bars that we have...but I figured they were big enough candy names for you guys to have them...maybe it's just called something else over there. On that note, I was watching some hockey games on Premier Sports recently and there was a McDonald's commercial for this breakfast wrap that had a "potato rusty" (or that's what it sounded like at least) on it...they aren't called hash browns there? I've never heard the term potato rusty before, it sounds foul...

2. I don't disagree that the Malkin/Neal duo could use someone like Kunitz because someone like Kunitz doesn't need to touch the puck. Look at the line, Neal and Malkin just pass it back and forth to each other and shoot...Kunitz can pick up trash and do board work and stuff like that...it really is a shame that Tangradi couldn't do that, because we didn't need a lot of skill on that LW...the line is chock full of it already...Boychuk just skates around looking tense so people think that he's busy, but really, he's not doing anything either...he just skates around in a circle out there...

3. It's hard to tell what Shero's doing at this point. It seems like an organizational audit(ion) from top to bottom, which might include Bylsma, might not. I guess we'll see at the trade deadline exactly what Shero has in mind. It doesn't look like we're going to be grinding out a cycle again, maybe the organization thought that was too much wear and tear...I'm not sure that the coaching staff trusts our d-men to be jumping into these plays either...so we'll see what we become soon enough I guess...I have a feeling we're just going to try to add "attributes" at the deadline. I'm not sure that they'll have a direct purpose in mind. They'll look at the depth chart and go, "we need a physical, defensive d-man" and go find that...as opposed to going, "we could use a 6'3", RHS winger for Crosby that can stay with us long term" I think they'll just go for a skill grab and hope that the coaching staff can make good use of it...we'll see...

4. I'm slightly jealous that you get to use words that my editors/professors over the years have all but barred me from using: "amongst", "whilst" and "irrespective" ...a trifle shame...


1. Steer clear of 'potato rustys', never heard of them but even if such a thing originated here I would not touch it with a barge pole.

2. Boychuck's skating ability eclipsed Tangradi's but as you say that's all he seems to bring given the specific requirements for success in that position. I don't mind him on the 3rd and would currently insert him over TK more to give TK a kick up the rear.

3. This relates to the above in that both Sid and Geno could use that ideal 6'3'' RH shot wing but the available players and required assets make such a move unlikely. Adding the best available skill for what we have to offer seems likely but contrasts Shero's drafting philosophy and theoretical outcome (trade young PMD for ideal winger for teh Sid).

4. I'm assuming you are between 25-35 so would suggest your professors/editors should be more appreciative of your use of the English language, it's dying out (working at a college I'm frustrated by the text speak and reliance on spell checks, I swear half the kids have never even seen a pencil) :D
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby pcm on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:24 pm

Regarding #2, I agree with the "doesn't need to touch the puck" role for Malkin-Neal's winger. I think Jeffrey could play this role. And in his 2 games there (1 of which was the isle 3-0 wakeup game), he did crash the net, create space, and one of Malkin/Neal ripped it into the net.

This is why Boychuk didn't work there, and why I don't think putting Bennett there will work either. Same goes for PMB. I hope, that Shero has more of a plan with shaping this team than it seems. Unfortunately it does seem like he has a soft spot for these soft, skilled, diminutive players, when what wins in the playoffs is grit, force, size, & tenacity blended together with skill. I'm just not sure that there's anything out there right now (except Iginla, and thats a huge ?) that would be worth our assets, which could use some maturation in order to et the most for them.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mac5155 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:28 pm

Who ever the Malkin Neal winger is needs to be able to pass though, and Cooke can't do that.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:35 pm

Do they though, mac? Kunitz isn't exactly Mr. Creativity or Mr. Vision out there and the line was among the best in hockey last year. Where does he rank in terms of passing ability on this team? I'd say just about with everybody else that isn't Crosby or Malkin...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:38 pm

I'd say that his passing is smarter, if not better than the stated competition.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mac5155 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:38 pm

mikey287 wrote:Do they though, mac? Kunitz isn't exactly Mr. Creativity or Mr. Vision out there and the line was among the best in hockey last year. Where does he rank in terms of passing ability on this team? I'd say just about with everybody else that isn't Crosby or Malkin...


There were at least two instances tonight where Cooke could have put it on 71 or 18s tape and failed to do so. I dunno. I'm not expecting Crosby esque passes, just give them something they can handle.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:52 pm

That's fair, and yeah, I'd say he's at the top of a pretty average heap I suppose...but Malkin and Neal are just gonna throw it back and forth to one another. If you get someone strong on the boards or who can crash the net, get rebounds, get missed shots, keep play flowing in forward direction, be a defensive conscience, you'll be fine...I don't think we need all that much there...I say that without "perfect world" being selected as an option. Meaning, we don't get the pick of the litter for Malkin/Neal, I'm saying in terms of in-house solutions, we can cut a corner on that line on that left side...just need to find competence...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:54 pm

mikey287 wrote:Under normal circumstances, Luckybreak, I wouldn't pose such an offer because it's not a Penguins move. But we're not the same team we were in 2008 and 2009. We used to be a Snickers bar made almost entirely of peanuts, we had some softer, creamier parts (Sykora, Gonchar). Now, we're a Three Musketeers bar pretty much...maybe a stale one, as we have some crunch on the bottom side with Tanner Glass and whoever...but it doesn't look like we're building the same thing as before...note: 6'4", 225 lb. Tangradi out, 5'2" 80 lb. Boychuk in. If we were going to be a board-playing, cycling, hard team to play against, we'd be making personnel moves that mimic that mantra.

Thus, PMB - if he can be had for a song - wouldn't be a bad choice. If we're looking for skill over substance, Butchy boy is it...


Just got back today from a work trip, was able to follow a bit but trying to catch up.....I missed a lot.

Anyways, Mikey I love this analogy. The one thing I try to point out from that cup team is that they were a b**** to play against. The trend to a different type of player actually started the day after the cup was hoisted. I am not overly romanticizing Talbot and Fedetenko, but they had awful seasons in 09-10 and were run off, IIRC Feds was even scratched most of the playoffs.

They went on to have decent years after leaving once put back into the roles they were successful at as SECOND line players here, I capitalized it to prove a point, which is we proved you dont need all top 6 guys to succeed, especially with Sid and Geno. I mean, even Neal (and I am not bashing him) is a sniper more than anything else. He is not a banger, even for his size.

The trend shifted on defense as well.

Now time will tell if the strategy is right or wrong, but at some point we are going to need some umph on "both sides of the ball". My analogy is we cant stop the run or control the clock. I cant remember the last time we actually carried the play for an extended time with cycle, while punishing their defense and keeping control. Other teams game plan to punish Letang, we cant game plan to stop that or even to the same to their equivalent unless we use our skates to cut them (too soon?).

Back to the thread at hand - not sure what we will be available at the deadline. Our chips are only valuable to a team trying to drop an impending UFA at the deadline. With finances being a major force in the NHL right now, an ownership will want to take a shot with the impending UFA for a round of home games ticket sales and try his their hand in free agency, then give up on the season for a high bust rate position playing prospect (PMD). Either way I am not sure there is a ton out there anyways. Hossa, Neal - those were pretty good circumstances we fell into.

My best guess is at the deadline we have a much better chance for some defense depth.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby André on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:31 am

So what's the verdict on Boychuk? I saw his first three games and thought it looked very promising.
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