Fire DB

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Re: fire db

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:36 pm

pugilist13 wrote:
Bowser wrote:Craig Patrick was justly ripped for having terrible drafts from 94-99 and since drafting Jordan Staal number two overall in 2006, the highest goal scoring forward is Dustin Jeffrey with 12 goals in 67 games.

Craig Partrick from 94-99
99 - Ryan Malone 171 goals, Tom Kostopolous 60 goals
98 - Milan Kraft 41 goals, Toby Petersen 33
95 - Alexei Morozov 84, Jan Hrdina 101
94 - Richard Park 102, Serge Aubin 44

Ray Shero from 06-12 (any goal scorer at F)
12 - none
11 - none
10 - none
09 - none
08 - none
07 - Luca Caputi 3, Dustin Jeffrey 12
06 - Jordan Staal 120

Pathetic doesn't even describe Shero's work in the draft at forward.

The knock on Patrick was ignoring defensemen, from 94-99 he drafted these guys who played at least 1 game in NHL
94 - Sven Butenschoen
95 - none
96 - Pavel Skrbek, Michal Rozsival
97 - Josef Melichar, Andrew Ference
98 - Rob Scuderi
99 - none

Wow. That is pathetic at forward. You dont realize it until you see it. Thanks for digging this up.


It takes 5 years IMHO to determine whether a drafted prospect is a bust or not. This assumes you are not talking about a top 5 guy who should impact the NHL team sooner. You started in 2006, well Shero picked Staal for better or worse, the rest of that draft was by Greg Malone and the old scouting staff. So in reality Shero's first full draft was 2007. Anyway here are my comments on those drafts from the forward position. I think you paint a picture that is too dire and isn't reality.

Ray Shero from 06-12 (any goal scorer at F)
12 - none (Way too early to judge, but both Bluger and Zlobin have a chance to make the NHL roster some day)
11 - none (Again too early, but Archibald and Wilson both have a chance.)
10 - none (Bennett will make the NHL and Agostino might)
09 - none (Agree here no forward prospects coming from this group)
08 - none (Draft essentially given away to get Hossa and Gill)
07 - Luca Caputi 3, Dustin Jeffrey 12 (Nothing beyond these two are NHL'ers)
06 - Jordan Staal 120 (See my original statement)

I guess to summarize, they don't have 5 first round picks at forward who are locks to make a NHL impact, but they do have a few players at forward who could make an impact in the next year or two.
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Re: fire db

Postby penmyst on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:37 pm

midd wrote:This was Tangradi's "best" of all the games he played this season. And that's not saying much. I agree Jeffrey should be in the lineup. I guess Tangradi is to Bylsma what Ouellet was to Therrien!


No. At least Mango produced *something*, even if only occasionally.

Frankly, I barely notice Tangradi. Which isn't good when you are as big as he is.

no name wrote:I thought he should of been fired after last season Flyer series. But its to early this season to throw him in the fire.

2 loses in a row its not the end of the world.


No, it's not.

But what is concerning is that the similar problems that plagued the Pens late last year and in the playoff debacle, have reared their ugly heads again only 2 games into the season.

And I don't get it with fans who think there is a Magic Bullet™ player that upon being brought in, will correct all the Pens woes.

This team is no weaker than any other in the league. In a salary cap era, you aren't going to have all-stars roaming all 4 of your lines as well as rotating the pine for D-pairings nightly.

The bottom line is that this team does not play well enough as a TEAM. People want to rip individual Pens (particularly the D) when they cough up pucks in their own zones (Malkin is the exception, he deserves to get ripped for some of his blatant unforced errors). But how many times do you see Pens D looking clueless back there? Or not having good support for them? Or hell, even a plan on where they want to put the puck as a forechecker is bearing down on them?

It was glaringly apparent multiple times per period over the last 2.3 games. Watching pucks aimlessly shifted around the Pens zone under pressure. Meanwhile, watch what happens in the other end of the ice. Other teams seem to work better at TEAM play in moving the puck and the Pens end up chasing or never even putting the opponent D under critical pressure. Not because they (Pens) aren't skating hard enough, but because the other teams seem to have a better plan to work together and move the puck out. That means more than just the D pair.

The Pens only great individual D is Letang. But that's the case with most every other team in the league, and the ones that have MORE than one outstanding individual player at D probably are lacking in the F department (salary cap and all). When they don't have a solid team framework to support them, they get exposed badly.

Who is to blame for that?

As much hate as fans and players had for FHCMT's style of play, it gave the team discipline as a unit.

I don't want to see a return to those boring salad days of HCMT, but there *has* to be a middle ground somewhere between that defensive-first borefest.... and HCDB's forward-charging unbridled attack.
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Re: fire db

Postby columbia on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Gaucho wrote:The ß is dying a slow death, I'm afraid.


Das ist nicht Spaß.
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Re: fire db

Postby Lt. Dish on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:44 pm

penmyst wrote:But what is concerning is that the similar problems that plagued the Pens late last year and in the playoff debacle, have reared their ugly heads again only 2 games into the season.

And I don't get it with fans who think there is a Magic Bullet™ player that upon being brought in, will correct all the Pens woes.

This team is no weaker than any other in the league. In a salary cap era, you aren't going to have all-stars roaming all 4 of your lines as well as rotating the pine for D-pairings nightly.

The bottom line is that this team does not play well enough as a TEAM. People want to rip individual Pens (particularly the D) when they cough up pucks in their own zones (Malkin is the exception, he deserves to get ripped for some of his blatant unforced errors). But how many times do you see Pens D looking clueless back there? Or not having good support for them? Or hell, even a plan on where they want to put the puck as a forechecker is bearing down on them?

It was glaringly apparent multiple times per period over the last 2.3 games. Watching pucks aimlessly shifted around the Pens zone under pressure. Meanwhile, watch what happens in the other end of the ice. Other teams seem to work better at TEAM play in moving the puck and the Pens end up chasing or never even putting the opponent D under critical pressure. Not because they (Pens) aren't skating hard enough, but because the other teams seem to have a better plan to work together and move the puck out. That means more than just the D pair.

The Pens only great individual D is Letang. But that's the case with most every other team in the league, and the ones that have MORE than one outstanding individual player at D probably are lacking in the F department (salary cap and all). When they don't have a solid team framework to support them, they get exposed badly.

Who is to blame for that?

As much hate as fans and players had for FHCMT's style of play, it gave the team discipline as a unit.

I don't want to see a return to those boring salad days of HCMT, but there *has* to be a middle ground somewhere between that defensive-first borefest.... and HCDB's forward-charging unbridled attack.


Good points here, and I think what makes it all so frustrating is that we know they can find the middle ground--because they have at times.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:52 pm

columbia wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The ß is dying a slow death, I'm afraid.


Das ist nicht Spaß.


Ja, ich weiß.
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Re: fire db

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:21 pm

I am not an alarmist and feel like I can usually see things for what they are. That said, I think DB needs to go for the simple fact that we all know how the story ends (not good), and it seems that the beginning is looking like the end usually does (chaos on the ice). I won't cry if he stays, just think it is time to let him go.
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Re: fire db

Postby largegarlic on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:31 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I am not an alarmist and feel like I can usually see things for what they are. That said, I think DB needs to go for the simple fact that we all know how the story ends (not good), and it seems that the beginning is looking like the end usually does (chaos on the ice). I won't cry if he stays, just think it is time to let him go.


I'm starting to feel like this too. This team keeps playing the same way that led to them losing to Montreal in 2010 and Philly in 2012 (ignoring 2011 as a fluke). I can already see a frustrating loss in 6 games in the 4-5 seed match-up, brought about by lots of turnovers, stupid penalties, and lax defensive coverage, despite the Pens having an edge in shots and offensive zone time. I honestly think I'd be a little surprised by a run deep into the playoffs with the status quo.
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Re: fire db

Postby Mr. Colby on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:42 pm

Bowser wrote:Lt. Dish - lol... my name is Eric Bowser and no, I don't own the car dealership... hahahaha


I always thought you went by Bowser because you and your dog look alike.

In fact, I'm stickin with that
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Re: fire db

Postby joopen on Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:07 pm

Gaucho wrote:
columbia wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The ß is dying a slow death, I'm afraid.


Das ist nicht Spaß.


Ja, ich weiß.

I thought it would properly be said "Das macht kein Spaß"?
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Re: fire db

Postby Desiato on Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:54 pm

I guess I'll take my turn on the soapbox. I've said most of this before. While it may seem crazy to be critical of the team four games into a lockout shortened season, I think DB is already on borrowed time--especially after the disgraceful playoffs last year, during which he continued to demonstrate an inability to adjust and/or control his players.

The problem I have with the Pens so far is that they play almost exactly like the Pens from last year. And the year before. Of all contenders, they must be the least consistent through the course of a game. DB is simply not making significant adjustments. Disco Dan has metamorphosed into Broken Record Dan. I am *so* sick of watching this team try and fail the same tactics over, and over and over again until they inevitably lose. I am so sick of hearing, "we're just not executing."

He was obviously exactly what the post-MT Pens needed, but seems to have reached his ceiling with this team years ago.

I think it's absurd to look at this roster and claim it's an issue of personnel. In any case, RS should have another kick of the can with a new coach before being replaced.

Gaucho wrote:Call me crazy, but I don't think firing Bylsma has ever crossed Shero's mind for even a second.

Are you being sarcastic? When a high profile team with a ripe championship window fails brutally to meet expectations, it's always a consideration to fire the coach. Terminating DB must have been a consideration last spring.
Last edited by Desiato on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fire db

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:01 pm

Do you guys remember the fluid zone breakouts and dump-ins during the 09 playoffs? I remember them being so fluid, D to D, chip to the forward near the center for the dump in...so smooth and simple looking (to my untrained eye). Maybe it was d-corps during the run, the ones who are gone (Scuderi, Gill, Eaton, Gonchar, Boucher) being more competent or maybe it's a gradual regression from Therrien's style. I remember they used a hybrid of Therrien and Bylsma's system that year, because there wasn't time to do anything else.

One rarely saw the blueline or slot area ( :face: :face: :face: ) turnovers back during the Cup run, but we see them from superstars several times a period.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:43 pm

joopen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
columbia wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The ß is dying a slow death, I'm afraid.


Das ist nicht Spaß.


Ja, ich weiß.

I thought it would properly be said "Das macht kein Spaß"?


Das macht keinen Spaß would be correct.
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Re: fire db

Postby columbia on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:44 pm

Know it all.
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Re: fire db

Postby Puck Drama on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:48 pm

The coach is toast when every game they lose is because "they were out worked" "got away from our game" "Didn't match their intensity" "did not play 60 minutes" "it's just a mindset thing" "we need to get back to that"

Time to fire Bylsma and bring in a coach that will not be afraid to get in these players faces and hold them accountable.
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Re: fire db

Postby pugilist13 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:01 pm

Puck Drama wrote:The coach is toast when every game they lose is because "they were out worked" "got away from our game" "Didn't match their intensity" "did not play 60 minutes" "it's just a mindset thing" "we need to get back to that"

Time to fire Bylsma and bring in a coach that will not be afraid to get in these players faces and hold them accountable.

Yeah, it's a recurring theme isn't it?
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Re: fire db

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:12 pm

If fans can see how pathetic the breakouts are and easy to defend, then advanced scouts and NHL coaches are going to have an easy time coming up with a game plan to stop those long breakouts.

Crosby and others can talk today about how they were outworked but the evidence on the video tells another story, something the team just flat refuses to admit for the last three years.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:14 pm

pugilist13 wrote:
Puck Drama wrote:The coach is toast when every game they lose is because "they were out worked" "got away from our game" "Didn't match their intensity" "did not play 60 minutes" "it's just a mindset thing" "we need to get back to that"

Time to fire Bylsma and bring in a coach that will not be afraid to get in these players faces and hold them accountable.

Yeah, it's a recurring theme isn't it?


Isn't that pretty much what every player on every team says after every loss?
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:16 pm

I definitely would like to hear from DB what he thinks about his team time and time again looking like world-beaters in period 1, then losing all intensity and focus after the 1st intermission.
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Re: fire db

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:20 pm

Gaucho - Well, he was swimming for excuses last night talking about the long line changes... something that happens every game in the second period. When he gets a question that he doesn't like, you can hear the tone of his voice and see the body language change.
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Re: fire db

Postby brwi on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:27 pm

Gaucho wrote:I definitely would like to hear from DB what he thinks about his team time and time again looking like world-beaters in period 1, then losing all intensity and focus after the 1st intermission.


While I'm not on the "Fire DB" bandwagon, this concerns me too because the Pens looked that same way the last two playoffs and brought back bad memories of the Country Club era right after the 2nd Cup where the team really busts it for a period and then decides they can turn it on again whenever needed. That wasn't the case then and it sure isn't now.

The forwards on this roster are scary with how sloppy they can be at two-way hockey, and yes, I'm looking at you Malkin as #1 culprit, though James Neal is gaining ground you. Sutter last night was just awful, but I think he'll get his game going pretty quickly. I've seen enough of him playing for Carolina and not too worried about him. Kunitz has been a wreck at times and seems suddenly to have slowed down.

On the brightside of things, this is the best I've ever seen of Malkin on important faceoffs at least :D
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:32 pm

The only forward that has met my expectations so far is Vitale.
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Re: fire db

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:41 pm

Gaucho - agree on Vitale.

He's played in three games (34:41) collecting 7 hits, 8 shots, won 60% faceoffs, 1 assist, 1 blocked shot, 1 takeaway, and 0 giveaways. Visually, he's moving his skates, grinding along the boards, and doing his job defensively.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:44 pm

Thanks, that's even better than I expected. :thumb:
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Re: fire db

Postby 71Aj66ax87 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:11 pm

Image Image
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:16 pm

Image
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