Fire DB

[shmenguin]

What's wrong with Sutter that would necessitate a change?

is this worth re-hashing?

(and one that fits under the cap)

or is this the point of the question? in which case - you got me. it's going to take a couple years to be able to build this team correctly. you pay 2 guys a zillion dollars, and you're hands are going to be tied. luckily, it's the internet, so you're allowed to point out a problem without offering a viable solution.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

What's wrong with Sutter that would necessitate a change (and one that fits under the cap)?

Here's what I like about Sutter:
-Plays responsible hockey
-Can be great on face-offs

There's nothing wrong with Sutter per-se. It's more what the Penguins need. Obviously finding another Jordan Staal to man your 3rd line is unlikely and rare, but we need a third liner who can produce more.

OR

Better personnel need to be brought in to surround him.

While Sutter has potential and brings solid fundamentals can you really justify spending $2M to upwards of $3M on him? I think if the Penguins are going to spend $2.5 to $3M they need to explore other options.

[mikey287]

so you're allowed to point out a problem without offering a viable solution.

"Allowed" to, yes. But what good does that do...? How does that result in poignant discussion? Points that are not fully-formed create "distraction" points and posts, like whoever posted "Dustin Penner leads the league in plus/minus" in this thread...it obviously has no relevance to anything going on at all, not one iota...

It's just a message board, but if one is trying to engage in a meaningful discussion, it would make sense to have something worth discussing...

[shmenguin]

so you're allowed to point out a problem without offering a viable solution.

"Allowed" to, yes. But what good does that do...? How does that result in poignant discussion? Points that are not fully-formed create "distraction" points and posts, like whoever posted "Dustin Penner leads the league in plus/minus" in this thread...it obviously has no relevance to anything going on at all, not one iota...

It's just a message board, but if one is trying to engage in a meaningful discussion, it would make sense to have something worth discussing...

the dustin penner thing? it was in response to your assertion that the 3rd line was a net positive in the playoffs. i was assuming you were citing a +/- stat there (because, aside from a pure goals against argument, i can't think of any other reason why you'd think that).

as for this other business. eh. this is the part where i bring up that everyone thought therrien should have been fired in 09, but no one knew who should replace him. should everyone have kept their opinions to themselves, then? no, not at all. and despite what you're absorbing here, there is a discussion point. it comes down to: can we win a tight series with this level of contribution from our bottom 6? i've drawn my line in the sand on the matter. i haven't really seen anyone on the other side do it. you'll probably say that we can, but we need a better tactician behind the bench. or maybe you won't say that, since it's not something the team will change, so there isn't a viable solution to talk about. so why bring it up? right?

[Jim]

The problem with offering "solutions" to the problem is that the discussion just turns into a debate about your offered solution as opposed to a discussion of the causes of the problem and the full variety of potential solutions.

[pcm]

I think Sutter is fine, but his line needs to be given more offensive oumph. Not even necessarily to score goals. But rather, to maintain pressure that the top 2 lines generate.

Its a huge momentum suck when our bottom lines go out there after a big shift from 87 or 71 and get penned in our defensive zone. We need a 3rd line that can go out there and sustain the momentum created... So the top lines can come on against a weary unit and capitalize.

Our 4th line has been much improved this year. But our 3rd line has been a rotating door to Narnia. It's a personnel issue (D'Agostini is not going to help.) But it's also a coaching issue (employing Morrow-Sutter-Cooke as a checking line).

[mikey287]

It still doesn't explain what it has to do with Dustin Penner. Sutter and Cooke didn't have far superior players dragging them along (Getzlaf and Perry). Just a distraction. According to #fancystats, Sutter and Cooke gained territory in difficult situations.

I think the play of the fourth line has been better this year. With Engelland on it, no less. They've been able to keep possession down-low, get a little cycle game going and push the tempo physically against varying opposition. So, there's some hope on that front.

What's really lacking on the third line is Matt Cooke. Or on the other side, Tyler Kennedy. That will be addressed at the trade deadline. And it will determine it's identity. Coaching staff recognizes the third line is a mutt...it's a test site for call-ups, it's place where demoted players go, it's a line in limbo.

Interestingly, well perhaps not, the fourth line is doing more heavy lifting than the third this year. Promising? Perhaps.

Re: coaching changes. Slightly different animal. Most people don't understand coaching and its impacts, nor do they coaches themselves really. Slightly more understandable than player personnel.

[Jesse]

Prior to the game against the Islanders, Sutter had gone about 150+ ES minutes without being on the ice for a goal against. That's about 12.5 games in case anyone was wondering.

I don't care if the kid scores 10 goals a year. So far this season, and in the playoffs last year, he was virtually impossible to score on. He provides a valuable service to this team that not even the previous fan-favorite center was able to replicate on the third line.

I think it's insane that anyone would even want to jettison this kid off of the team. He plays 200 foot hockey like nobody's business.

Even with two ES shifts with GA on Friday night, Sutter's goals against per 60 minutes of even strength ice time is 1.65. Only Glass, Adams and Dupuis are better. In Glass/Adams case, lower ice time, lower QoC is responsible. Dupuis is just a boss. Sutter's QoC numbers are among the top in the team.

Could he score more? Yeah. But when you look at the dirt, he's next to impossible to score on.

[murphydump55]

It still doesn't explain what it has to do with Dustin Penner. Sutter and Cooke didn't have far superior players dragging them along (Getzlaf and Perry). Just a distraction. According to #fancystats, Sutter and Cooke gained territory in difficult situations.

I think the play of the fourth line has been better this year. With Engelland on it, no less. They've been able to keep possession down-low, get a little cycle game going and push the tempo physically against varying opposition. So, there's some hope on that front.

What's really lacking on the third line is Matt Cooke. Or on the other side, Tyler Kennedy. That will be addressed at the trade deadline. And it will determine it's identity. Coaching staff recognizes the third line is a mutt...it's a test site for call-ups, it's place where demoted players go, it's a line in limbo.

Interestingly, well perhaps not, the fourth line is doing more heavy lifting than the third this year. Promising? Perhaps.

Re: coaching changes. Slightly different animal. Most people don't understand coaching and its impacts, nor do they coaches themselves really. Slightly more understandable than player personnel.

Mikey, how can 4 coaches not see the fact that Engelland is better on the 4th line than on the blueline? How can they not see that Bortuzzo is a better defenseman than Engelland?

How can they not see that Jokinen is completely struggling lately and you have a guy that has proven his offensive game in the AHL this year in Gibbons, wasting on the third line? Why wouldn't you give him a chance to see if maybe he actually meshes with Malkin for some crazy reason? Not to say Jokinen doesn't have chemistry, because he does, but lately he's been downright terrible. Why not take the opportunity to give Gibbons that chance?

This is what drives me nuts about Bylsma besides his lack of adjustments and stubborness. Vitale deserved to play last year and he was a constant scratch. Him and Kennedy should never have come out of the lineup against the Isles in my mind, because of their speed and faceoff ability. Low and behold, once they're inserted again, we're able to skate with them and Kennedy came up big. He has this love affair with Engelland on the blueline, when it's clear that Bortuzzo has more ability, and deserves to play. Sure he's going to make mistakes, but he's a future fixture on this blueline, let him play out the errors, it's not like Engo doesn't make errors....and make MORE of them...not to mention Engo isn't in the future plans of this team, unless he's a 4th liner. (where I like him a lot better)

Thoughts?

[murphydump55]

Prior to the game against the Islanders, Sutter had gone about 150+ ES minutes without being on the ice for a goal against. That's about 12.5 games in case anyone was wondering.

I don't care if the kid scores 10 goals a year. So far this season, and in the playoffs last year, he was virtually impossible to score on. He provides a valuable service to this team that not even the previous fan-favorite center was able to replicate on the third line.

I think it's insane that anyone would even want to jettison this kid off of the team. He plays 200 foot hockey like nobody's business.

Even with two ES shifts with GA on Friday night, Sutter's goals against per 60 minutes of even strength ice time is 1.65. Only Glass, Adams and Dupuis are better. In Glass/Adams case, lower ice time, lower QoC is responsible. Dupuis is just a boss. Sutter's QoC numbers are among the top in the team.

Could he score more? Yeah. But when you look at the dirt, he's next to impossible to score on.

Agreed Jesse, I'm not sure why everyone is all over Sutter. Maybe they were spoiled with Staal? I wouldn't even say spoiled, because Sutter has done an amazing job defensively, and Staal has done zero in Carolina offensively, so we're not missing a lot there when you compare his numbers to Sutter's since the trade.

Upgrade the 3rd line slightly instead of D'Agostini, and add a healthy Bennett and we'll see more production offensively out of Sutter, that's a guarantee.

[Idoit40fans]

eveyone isn't. it seems like 1 person is.

[Penspal]

Sutter is fine for what he's paid. Salary cap restrictions actually make him a great fit on this team. Sutter still has some upside and he's going to snipe one tonight. Let's Go Pens!

[shmenguin]

Prior to the game against the Islanders, Sutter had gone about 150+ ES minutes without being on the ice for a goal against. That's about 12.5 games in case anyone was wondering.

I don't care if the kid scores 10 goals a year. So far this season, and in the playoffs last year, he was virtually impossible to score on. He provides a valuable service to this team that not even the previous fan-favorite center was able to replicate on the third line.

I think it's insane that anyone would even want to jettison this kid off of the team. He plays 200 foot hockey like nobody's business.

Even with two ES shifts with GA on Friday night, Sutter's goals against per 60 minutes of even strength ice time is 1.65. Only Glass, Adams and Dupuis are better. In Glass/Adams case, lower ice time, lower QoC is responsible. Dupuis is just a boss. Sutter's QoC numbers are among the top in the team.

Could he score more? Yeah. But when you look at the dirt, he's next to impossible to score on.

sutter's QoC is lower than glass and adams - even at ES. it's pretty low, overall. but that's likely because his linemates have required insulation. wasn't really good last year either, even in the playoffs. though that's what you get when the other coach matches lines against crosby/malkin. his shut out streak is still impressive, of course. though it's disingenuous to say he plays 200 foot hockey. he lives in his own end. he's obviously talented in his defensive game. but the talent is subsidized with him staying home.

sutter might be a treasure on defense. and he's got a nasty shot and more skill than he shows, day-to-day. so is sutter's skillset the problem? no. i don't think so. but eventually, if we have a playoff run, sid's going to get shut down at some point. for several games. and malkin's going to be out there skating by himself with minimal success. so we're going to need more contribution from the bottom 6 - even if it has nothing to do with goals for or goals against, and is just physical play or puck possession or something to change the flow of the game. so looking past sutter, we need something different in a broader sense - not 6 guys who are staying in front of their goal watching their corsi numbers shrivel up. maybe kobasew will help, who knows.

[RxBandit66]

Sutter is exactly what the Pens have lacked for years: a right handed shooting center who can play defense, score the occasional big goal, and win draws. He should not be criticized for not being overly physical, or for the fact that he doesn't score 30 goals per season. That is the job of other players; players who are making a lot more than Sutter, and those players are not doing their job. Put Sutter between two consistent linemates, one with speed and another who is a big net front presence, and he'll rack up a fair number of points.

As for the hitting, yes it's important, but the teams that go far in the playoffs have speed, size, and play a sound structural system. Sure, they could use a big body in front of the net. They will acquire that at the deadline. Maybe D'Agostini, Gibbons, or Ebbett can provide the speed. Kobasew IMO is a nice little piece of the puzzle in terms of hustle, intensity, hockey smarts, and a little grit.

Bottom line, this third line is going to gel into something good, one way or another. As mikey pointed out, the 4th line has improved, Rotating Adams/Vitale/Glass/Engelland has worked quite well. The loss of Glass will hurt more than most people want to admit, but he's far from irreplaceable.

The only problem with this team, other than a disciplined coach who believes in matchups and employs a system that works (and that's a big one), is the fact that not all of the players making the big bucks are producing at the rate they should be. And the complete collapse of Kris Letang's game is a concern. He has accumulated a -8 in the 15 games he's played, by far the worst on the team. Not that +/- is a relevant stat, but he really has to find himself out there, he is lost. "Get to your game" only makes sense if the player understands what to do with the puck and where to go on the ice.

[mikey287]

It still doesn't explain what it has to do with Dustin Penner. Sutter and Cooke didn't have far superior players dragging them along (Getzlaf and Perry). Just a distraction. According to #fancystats, Sutter and Cooke gained territory in difficult situations.

I think the play of the fourth line has been better this year. With Engelland on it, no less. They've been able to keep possession down-low, get a little cycle game going and push the tempo physically against varying opposition. So, there's some hope on that front.

What's really lacking on the third line is Matt Cooke. Or on the other side, Tyler Kennedy. That will be addressed at the trade deadline. And it will determine it's identity. Coaching staff recognizes the third line is a mutt...it's a test site for call-ups, it's place where demoted players go, it's a line in limbo.

Interestingly, well perhaps not, the fourth line is doing more heavy lifting than the third this year. Promising? Perhaps.

Re: coaching changes. Slightly different animal. Most people don't understand coaching and its impacts, nor do they coaches themselves really. Slightly more understandable than player personnel.

Mikey, how can 4 coaches not see the fact that Engelland is better on the 4th line than on the blueline? How can they not see that Bortuzzo is a better defenseman than Engelland?

How can they not see that Jokinen is completely struggling lately and you have a guy that has proven his offensive game in the AHL this year in Gibbons, wasting on the third line? Why wouldn't you give him a chance to see if maybe he actually meshes with Malkin for some crazy reason? Not to say Jokinen doesn't have chemistry, because he does, but lately he's been downright terrible. Why not take the opportunity to give Gibbons that chance?

This is what drives me nuts about Bylsma besides his lack of adjustments and stubborness. Vitale deserved to play last year and he was a constant scratch. Him and Kennedy should never have come out of the lineup against the Isles in my mind, because of their speed and faceoff ability. Low and behold, once they're inserted again, we're able to skate with them and Kennedy came up big. He has this love affair with Engelland on the blueline, when it's clear that Bortuzzo has more ability, and deserves to play. Sure he's going to make mistakes, but he's a future fixture on this blueline, let him play out the errors, it's not like Engo doesn't make errors....and make MORE of them...not to mention Engo isn't in the future plans of this team, unless he's a 4th liner. (where I like him a lot better)

Thoughts?

Re: Engelland/Bortuzzo. I don't have an answer to that. The organization may have different metrics for evaluating talent. I just don't know the answer to that. I've never found Engelland to be a particularly effective defenseman, so you're asking the wrong guy.

The organization, and this may tie back to Engelland, has a loyalty to its veterans it seems...and this is not at all uncommon throughout the league. Having kids come up and supplant established players is not highly thought of - at least, not always. Organizations will usually give expectations and what not when signing a player, what they expect this year, sometimes there are promises, what have you...if you get told that you're going to be in middle management and after three weeks, they stick you down in Storage B with a flashlight and tell you to catch roaches, you'd be a little upset.

Recent examples: Robin Lehner's comments re: Craig Anderson. Anderson (the starter) has been playing like dog mess. Lehner has been brilliant so far. When asked why he isn't getting more starts despite the clear difference in quality of play, Lehner basically said (and I'm paraphrasing): Well, if I become the starter for this organization one day, I wouldn't want to lose my job to some kid out of the minors outplayed me for a few weeks.

Buffalo recently sent down several young players. Some of the Buffalo veterans expressed a good deal of relief. Saying that those kids were handed the job and that they didn't earn it. It was polluting their locker room a tiny bit.

So, the organization's hardline stance on call-ups isn't unheard of and it's not unprovoked...well, somewhat. Ideally, yeah, we'll get to see Gibbons give it a try with Malkin.

[RxBandit66]

Mikey is right, the organization seems to have a loyalty to certain veteran players. The problem is, young players are cap friendly, and they need to be aware of the cap moving forward, considering next season they will be paying three players a King's ransom. If a few young guys can step in and play prominent roles on the cheap, it would be a tremendous help. Then they wouldn't have to trade their draft away at the deadline.

[wondermoose]

Mikey is right, the organization seems to have a loyalty to certain veteran players. The problem is, young players are cap friendly, and they need to be aware of the cap moving forward, considering next season they will be paying three players a King's ransom. If a few young guys can step in and play prominent roles on the cheap, it would be a tremendous help. Then they wouldn't have to trade their draft away at the deadline.

More importantly, everyone needs to recognize when these veterans cease to bring the value coach's believe they have. Look, Craig Adams has been the man, but he's a far cry from being the defensive stalwart he used to be. Deryk Engelland, great story, but the time has come. He's a mess that makes too many noticeable mistakes for the amount of time he spends on the ice.

I really do think it's Bylsma's career that makes him partial to players cut from the same cloth. There comes a time, however, where management needs to step in and choose the roster for him.

As far as Letang goes, all the good that Shero has done will be undone if he keeps both Letang and Bylsma. Those two are a disaster together, whether its Letang inability/refusal to cooperate and chill the **** out or it's DB's inability to manipulate and mature Letang's game. Either way, he can sign and deal for the stars in the world and the moment Letang cashes in that first big paycheck, Shero becomes a monumental ass for signing him to an eight-year deal.

[MRandall25]

There comes a time, however, where management needs to step in and choose the roster for him.

So wouldn't signing Craig Adams be a management decision?

[wondermoose]

There comes a time, however, where management needs to step in and choose the roster for him.

So wouldn't signing Craig Adams be a management decision?

It's a safe contract. I don't mind having him sitting in the press box in case he needs to play, but he's not an every-night player anymore.

[farnham16]

Great point on Letang and Bylsma being a bad match. I don't think you can have both on the team and get to where the Pens want to be. Some players need a lot of discipline and accountability from their coaches for them to play their best. Letang is one of the those guys. And we all know Bylsma's thing ain't accountability and being tough on players. Bylsma's strategy with Letang is horrible. He literally lets Letang do whatever he wants on the ice. That's not speculation either because Letang actually jumped into the play on PK's in the playoffs multiple times last season and Bylsma never took ice time away from him. Letang isn't mature enough and doesn't have the makeup to play up to his potential consistently with a coach like Bylsma.

[Desiato]

Does anyone dispute that the Pens have an issue with accountability? IMO, Bylsma will never be that coach. Not to this team, at least.

I think a players coach is usually only successful when replacing disciplinarian. I think they usually have less longevity as a result. I think Bylsma has expired. The lessons of FHCMT appear long forgotten. I think a lot of those lessons are basic and fundamental to success.

Letang has all the tools to be the best defenseman in the league. I am certain that after a season playing for the Red Wings, he could be.

It's easy to single out Letang, but at least half a dozen Pens frequently make reckless decisions. At this point in his career, Geno should be a more complete player. Even Sid seems less effective than he should be at times. I think he can be better.

The past few years have felt very post-bowman.

[RxBandit66]

Mikey is right, the organization seems to have a loyalty to certain veteran players. The problem is, young players are cap friendly, and they need to be aware of the cap moving forward, considering next season they will be paying three players a King's ransom. If a few young guys can step in and play prominent roles on the cheap, it would be a tremendous help. Then they wouldn't have to trade their draft away at the deadline.

More importantly, everyone needs to recognize when these veterans cease to bring the value coach's believe they have. Look, Craig Adams has been the man, but he's a far cry from being the defensive stalwart he used to be. Deryk Engelland, great story, but the time has come. He's a mess that makes too many noticeable mistakes for the amount of time he spends on the ice.

I really do think it's Bylsma's career that makes him partial to players cut from the same cloth. There comes a time, however, where management needs to step in and choose the roster for him.

As far as Letang goes, all the good that Shero has done will be undone if he keeps both Letang and Bylsma. Those two are a disaster together, whether its Letang inability/refusal to cooperate and chill the **** out or it's DB's inability to manipulate and mature Letang's game. Either way, he can sign and deal for the stars in the world and the moment Letang cashes in that first big paycheck, Shero becomes a monumental ass for signing him to an eight-year deal.

Couldn't agree more. The sad part is, Letang had mad trade value before the big contract and his decline. Now, the takers will be very limited and the Pens will have to accept less in return. These changes should have been made after the 2012 loss to Philly. No way any coach should survive that. It was humiliating in every way, and Letang was ******* brutal in that series. They should have brought in a new coach, made a commitment to young guys like Despres right then and there. I'm still not convinced Shero shouldn't have kept Scuderi and Gill all these years rather than spending the cash on Michalek and wasting draft picks on guys like Leopold and Murray. They never really replaced those guys after they left, and Shero spent a treasure chest of assets trying to do it. That was his first huge mistake, and other than the Neal trade, he's kind of sputtered from there. As inconceivable as it may be to fire a coach in the middle of a winning season, it has been done before. Bylsma is clearly who the players want, but he's not an NHL caliber coach IMO, never has been.

[RxBandit66]

Does anyone dispute that the Pens have an issue with accountability? IMO, Bylsma will never be that coach. Not to this team, at least.

I think a players coach is usually only successful when replacing disciplinarian. I think they usually have less longevity as a result. I think Bylsma has expired. The lessons of FHCMT appear long forgotten. I think a lot of those lessons are basic and fundamental to success.

Letang has all the tools to be the best defenseman in the league. I am certain that after a season playing for the Red Wings, he could be.

It's easy to single out Letang, but at least half a dozen Pens frequently make reckless decisions. At this point in his career, Geno should be a more complete player. Even Sid seems less effective than he should be at times. I think he can be better.

The past few years have felt very post-bowman.

Post-Bowman is a great way to describe what has happened here. And they have drifted so far from any semblance of structure and discipline that it may be too late to bring it in to the mix now or in the future with this group. 2012 was the time to let Bylsma go, and IMO the organization made a conscious decision to forgo playoff success in favor of a glitz and glam, country club atmosphere. Honestly, I don't think they care about winning Cups. They sell out every game, and they players are happy with their buddy behind the bench. So, let the mustache of the month, wiffle ball on the ice, and human bowling before games continue!

[wondermoose]

Mikey is right, the organization seems to have a loyalty to certain veteran players. The problem is, young players are cap friendly, and they need to be aware of the cap moving forward, considering next season they will be paying three players a King's ransom. If a few young guys can step in and play prominent roles on the cheap, it would be a tremendous help. Then they wouldn't have to trade their draft away at the deadline.

More importantly, everyone needs to recognize when these veterans cease to bring the value coach's believe they have. Look, Craig Adams has been the man, but he's a far cry from being the defensive stalwart he used to be. Deryk Engelland, great story, but the time has come. He's a mess that makes too many noticeable mistakes for the amount of time he spends on the ice.

I really do think it's Bylsma's career that makes him partial to players cut from the same cloth. There comes a time, however, where management needs to step in and choose the roster for him.

As far as Letang goes, all the good that Shero has done will be undone if he keeps both Letang and Bylsma. Those two are a disaster together, whether its Letang inability/refusal to cooperate and chill the **** out or it's DB's inability to manipulate and mature Letang's game. Either way, he can sign and deal for the stars in the world and the moment Letang cashes in that first big paycheck, Shero becomes a monumental ass for signing him to an eight-year deal.

Couldn't agree more. The sad part is, Letang had mad trade value before the big contract and his decline. Now, the takers will be very limited and the Pens will have to accept less in return. These changes should have been made after the 2012 loss to Philly. No way any coach should survive that. It was humiliating in every way, and Letang was ******* brutal in that series. They should have brought in a new coach, made a commitment to young guys like Despres right then and there. I'm still not convinced Shero shouldn't have kept Scuderi and Gill all these years rather than spending the cash on Michalek and wasting draft picks on guys like Leopold and Murray. They never really replaced those guys after they left, and Shero spent a treasure chest of assets trying to do it. That was his first huge mistake, and other than the Neal trade, he's kind of sputtered from there. As inconceivable as it may be to fire a coach in the middle of a winning season, it has been done before. Bylsma is clearly who the players want, but he's not an NHL caliber coach IMO, never has been.

The more I think about it, the more I think trading Letang would be simple. There are a plethora of teams that are starving to sign these big name players to long contracts, and I don't think anyone disputes the skill level Letang possesses.

[Idoit40fans]

I wonder how many players would re-sign before going UFA if the Penguins traded Letang. Or how many big names would come in without full NMCs.