Fire DB

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Re: fire db

Postby SolidSnake on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:17 pm

Time for some new gifs
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Re: fire db

Postby Bowser on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:24 pm

New gifs with Dave King as the Penguins head coach
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Re: fire db

Postby joopen on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:19 am

Gaucho wrote:
joopen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
columbia wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The ß is dying a slow death, I'm afraid.


Das ist nicht Spaß.


Ja, ich weiß.

I thought it would properly be said "Das macht kein Spaß"?


Das macht keinen Spaß would be correct.


I thought it would only be keinen with der nicht das
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Re: fire db

Postby Lt. Dish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:25 am

Gunter glieben glauchen globen, amirite?

totally messing, of course :)
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Re: fire db

Postby penmyst on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:21 am

Let's step back for a second and review a couple of the themes popping up in this thread.

1. The Pens are getting uneven performances in games.

I think it's easy to mistake #1 for uneven efforts. This seems to be the raison d'etre of the "Country Club" slander.

The Pens seem to really be solid in the 1st periods (numbers great this year), and then things start to fall apart often ending up in third period Alamos.

A number of posters have made a good point about this; it's the sign of a team having a great game plan entering battle, but then being outclassed/outcoached by tactical adjustments DURING the battle.

It's easy to mistake "lack of effort" with "bad plan making your effort wasted". Are there slackers in pro sports? Yeah. But honestly, there are not a lot of them. Most players and teams work hard and TRY to do the right things. What usually happens out there is that they get outclassed in talent or tactics. And then the effort isn't making up the difference. This team does not have a talent problem. They've got a couple weak spots, but they more than make up for the overall balance with some REALLY great spots.

2. The Pens are struggling with breakouts, defense in their zone, and the turnovers in between.

This one fits a bit hand-in-hand with the first one.

HCDB's system is definitely one that wants fast breakouts and aggressive pushing UP the ice. "North South game!" is what you'll hear a lot.

What I believe we are seeing out there is opponent coaching tactics meant to thwart that system by pressuring the D in the Pens zone, as well as pressuring Pens F when the get the puck in their own zone and wish to turn it up ice FAST.

Coaches are using aggressive forecheck tactics to disrupt the Pens breakouts. And when your F are waiting/moving ahead as part of the "system", it often leaves the D on an island back there trying to make a pass through often 2 aggressive forecheckers supported by a rover coming to take the closest Pens F (who is already leaning forward as that is the aggressive HCDB system). It's hard to even SEE breakout passes/lanes let alone MAKE them when your back is turned trying to get away from the bogey on your six, often times facing the glass or maybe the backside of your own net. Not exactly great passing positions.

That system creates a lot of long gaps between D-->F on the breakout. When those passes connect, you can really put the other team on their heels. It asks questions of the other team's D, and often can find holes as they are trying to adjust/move/pickup the right assignment on the fly thanks to that aggressive Pens attack.

But when tactics are employed to make it difficult, it leads to a lot of aimless chucking of the puck by the Pens D (simply because there IS no breakout lane available, and they are under intense pressure), as well as the F that ends up having to drop back and help them out..... trying to force breakout plays that aren't there. Like Malkin's ugly turnovers. Those types of turnovers are as much frustration as they are blindness. Players get frustrated that their coached system is being thwarted, and they WANT to make it work... so they double effort without doubling thinking which never works.

The questions that fans ought to be asking is; why aren't the Pens coaches making adjustments to this tactic against them? Why aren't the coaches coaching their players on what to do when these things start occurring? Again, back to that point number 1 where it seems HCDB simply gets outcoached in the thick of things. He doesn't seem to be able to respond to what the other team is doing.

Stop me if you've heard this before, but the answers seem to CONSTANTLY be variants of "we want to do X no matter what the other team is doing." Well, sometimes you have to take what the other team gives you, so that you can HURT them... then it opens up the gaps for you to do what you want to do.

Sun Tzu says in the Art of War:
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.


The Pens coaching seems to be stuck on that bolded line there. It isn't that they don't know the other team, it's that they don't seem to afford any adjustment in their tactics as recognition of what they do know about the other team.

Digitalgypsy66 wrote:Do you guys remember the fluid zone breakouts and dump-ins during the 09 playoffs? I remember them being so fluid, D to D, chip to the forward near the center for the dump in...so smooth and simple looking (to my untrained eye). Maybe it was d-corps during the run, the ones who are gone (Scuderi, Gill, Eaton, Gonchar, Boucher) being more competent or maybe it's a gradual regression from Therrien's style. I remember they used a hybrid of Therrien and Bylsma's system that year, because there wasn't time to do anything else.

One rarely saw the blueline or slot area ( :face: :face: :face: ) turnovers back during the Cup run, but we see them from superstars several times a period.


I touched on some of this above. But yes, you are correct they seemed infinitely smoother in 09. And it was definitely that they still had the major structural scheme of FHCMT drilled into them. HCDB only made a couple of adjustments to loose the reins a bit, but mostly kept FHCMT basic system in place.

Those passes were smooth, dynamic, and simple looking because the Pens were moving as a unit deep in their own zone before the breakout. A very "defensive" mindset, as opposed to the "aggressive" mindset that HCDB has come to use. Smaller gaps, better puck support. But, the tradeoff is that it sort of strangled any creativity. They were like a clock, that moves as per the gears, and never outside it.

Their puck support in their zone was awesome, clockwork, and could be done in their sleep because it was so rote. But that's also very restrictive and boring, and superstars don't care to play that way because they are born creative. That's why guys like FHCMT and the Kevin Constantines of the world are VERY effective turnaround coaches, or coaching ham-n-egger teams (both examples of lower talent teams). Those rote, by-the-numbers systems allow mediocre players to become more than the sum of their parts. But these types of coaches wear out their welcomes when you get players with more offensive flair and creativity. Eventually, as with FHCMT, the players tune them out. That's why the Pens dogged it to get MT fired.
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Re: fire db

Postby IMFC on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:06 am

penmyst, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection . . . OVERRULED.
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Re: fire db

Postby Puck Drama on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:52 am

Very few hockey coaches have what it takes to hold a team's attention for more than a few years. Players just learn to tune them out. It is obvious that Bylsma has lost this team.
It is long past the time to fire Bylsma and bring in a Marc Crawford type coach to try to refocus this team.
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Re: fire db

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:43 am

Marc Crawford? I lol'd.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:45 am

joopen wrote:
I thought it would only be keinen with der nicht das


Not sure what rule you have in mind, but the definite article does not refer to Spaß anyway.

Want me to start a German Grammar thread in NHR? :wink:
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Re: fire db

Postby columbia on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:45 am

Oddly enough, Marc Crawford was name checked this morning:
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... de-672205/
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Re: fire db

Postby 71Aj66ax87 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:54 am

Bowser wrote:New gifs with Dave King as the Penguins head coach


Maybe he meant some new gifts.
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Re: fire db

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:02 pm

Relax Boys, Nizzy's here with the expert breakdown.

I've been all over Shero + Bylsma for the past 3 seasons now. #1 We do not need another top 6 winger. We actually have Beau coming up who should be legit, we'll be fine. We won a cup with Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin, Kunitz. Don't tell me we need another 6M winger, that's not the problem. Shero took the job and watched Anaheim win the cup with Big Body NA players. He then drafted Jordan Staal because of this, or maybe we would've went with Toews or Kessel. Brought in big guy Hal Gill. We won a cup with Michelle Therrien as the head coach, Bylsma just unlocked the dog lease on the team. Since then Bylsma has been preaching nothing but North-South puck moving soft defenseman. We are almost back at the soff Therrien speech with the soff-ness of this team.

Bylsma is so inexperienced its unbelievable how much credit he gets. Its fair to say he's not even a good coach. He's done the same north/south system since he was hired. There's more than enough footage on how to stop his system, it's a complete joke. Lav's outcoached Bylsma so much it was unreal. Bylsma made the organization look like a complete joke. The best part...that 10-3 game we destroyed Philly, our entire team stayed back a few seconds longer in the defense zone before the break out. We dominated them. Next game? Bylsma churping "north south crap" again and the team fell apart.

He needs to go. Shero needs to go back to Big Body NA instead of drafting puck moving defenseman with every first round pick. This team would be so good with a Tortorella. Tors gets on his veterans and star players, and lets his rookies/fringe players get consistent time at the pro level to succeed. Bylsma would rather bro it up with Guerin and a Kunitz and not get on them when they screw up, then demote Despres after a bad shift and play Lovejoy.

WHY IS LOVEJOY EVEN ON THIS TEAM? HE GOT EMBARASSED LAST YEAR. DESPRES, STRAIT, AND BORTUZZO ALL ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS GUY RIGHT NOW. YES RIGHT NOW. NOT POTENTIONAL. RIGHT NOW. STRAIT WAS GONE FOR NOTHING WHEN IT SHOULDVE BEEN LOVEJOY, DESPRES SHOULD BE PLAYING OVER LOVEJOY. FIRE BYLSMA RIGHT NOW. LOVEJOY IS A JOKE.

I hope this team goes 2-9 and Bylsma gets canned. How could this team get sick of Therrien talking, but can still here the North-South crap from Bylsma. You have the 2 best centers, maybe best players in the world, and your system is for your defenseman to bring the puck up, not them, then dump and chase, taking the puck off of them. Bylsma should go coach some dumb team like the flordia panthers. How come Tors has studs on the PK? Kovalchuk is on the PK for the devils, Giroux for Philly. We have Craig Adams. Get out there and kill a P.K. Crosby.

Shero has done a good job building a strong NA team, and if he drafts europeans I'm assuming most already play in the CHL somewhere. But this team feels so small. Martin was a failure. Didn't want to sign scuderi at 3.1 million because he was a 6th defenseman, whenever the guy was playing as shutdown number 1 pairing guy. LA Kings saw that, oops just won another cup beside doughty. Pretty sure Letang - Scuderi would be a nice start. Michalek is a great player, just because of the system you ship him out, a failing system. WATCHED SCUDERI SHUT DOWN OVECHKIN. SHUT DOWN. HOW IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR 3.1M FOR 4 YEARS SHERO? WHAT IS GILL MAKING RIGHT NOW? 2.2 M?

WE COULD HAVE GILL AND SCUDERI STILL FOR 5.3 MILLION BUT INSTEAD WE ARE PAYING PAMPER-SOFF MARTIN 5M. I'D RATHER HAVE RYAN WHITNEY BACK. AT LEAST WHITNEY SUCKER PUNCHED FRANZEN IN THE FACE AFTER FRANZEN HAD A CONCUSSION.

Trade Pouliot for Iglina, and you have Crosby a winger for the next 4 years. Flames wanted Pouliot anyways.

Bylsma needs to go, and its just not because we are choking leads. He can't change his system up. He got lucky with the Cup win. I mean really, if we dont win the cup in 2009 and lose in the 2nd round or something, he would've been fired by now. Get this guy out of here. Should've hired Hartley.
Last edited by Nizzy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fire db

Postby columbia on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:07 pm

I don't get it, when it comes to trading prospects for pending UFAs.
They traded garbage for Hossa, which is very different from shipping off any of the young D.
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:08 pm

When can we expect the expert breakdown to be posted?
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Re: fire db

Postby KG on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:08 pm

I enjoyed reading the post Nizzy....DB got throttled by Laviolette last year I agree. I was surprised more heat wasn't put on DB by Shero etc. I don't see the team going into a long term losing streak like that because of Sid/Malkin. The team presently constituted/coached will fizzle come playoff time which is when Shero will have to make a decision...
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Re: fire db

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:09 pm

Gaucho wrote:When can we expect the expert breakdown to be posted?


lmao, just made me lol at work.. nice man. <3<3

thanks KG haha
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Re: fire db

Postby Lesky on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Nizzy wrote:Relax Boys, Nizzy's here with the expert breakdown.

I've been all over Shero + Bylsma for the past 3 seasons now. #1 We do not need another top 6 winger. We actually have Beau coming up who should be legit, we'll be fine. We won a cup with Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin, Kunitz. Don't tell me we need another 6M winger, that's not the problem. Shero took the job and watched Anaheim win the cup with Big Body NA players. He then drafted Jordan Staal because of this, or maybe we would've went with Toews or Kessel. Brought in big guy Hal Gill. We won a cup with Michelle Therrien as the head coach, Bylsma just unlocked the dog lease on the team. Since then Bylsma has been preaching nothing but North-South puck moving soft defenseman. We are almost back at the soff Therrien speech with the soff-ness of this team.

Bylsma is so inexperienced its unbelievable how much credit he gets. Its fair to say he's not even a good coach. He's done the same north/south system since he was hired. There's more than enough footage on how to stop his system, it's a complete joke. Lav's outcoached Bylsma so much it was unreal. Bylsma made the organization look like a complete joke. The best part...that 10-3 game we destroyed Philly, our entire team stayed back a few seconds longer in the defense zone before the break out. We dominated them. Next game? Bylsma churping "north south crap" again and the team fell apart.

He needs to go. Shero needs to go back to Big Body NA instead of drafting puck moving defenseman with every first round pick. This team would be so good with a Tortorella. Tors gets on his veterans and star players, and lets his rookies/fringe players get consistent time at the pro level to succeed. Bylsma would rather bro it up with Guerin and a Kunitz and not get on them when they screw up, then demote Despres after a bad shift and play Lovejoy.

WHY IS LOVEJOY EVEN ON THIS TEAM? HE GOT EMBARASSED LAST YEAR. DESPRES, STRAIT, AND BORTUZZO ALL ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS GUY RIGHT NOW. YES RIGHT NOW. NOT POTENTIONAL. RIGHT NOW. STRAIT WAS GONE FOR NOTHING WHEN IT SHOULDVE BEEN LOVEJOY, DESPRES SHOULD BE PLAYING OVER LOVEJOY. FIRE BYLSMA RIGHT NOW. LOVEJOY IS A JOKE.

I hope this team goes 2-9 and Bylsma gets canned. How could this team get sick of Therrien talking, but can still here the North-South crap from Bylsma. You have the 2 best centers, maybe best players in the world, and your system is for your defenseman to bring the puck up, not them, then dump and chase, taking the puck off of them. Bylsma should go coach some dumb team like the flordia panthers. How come Tors has studs on the PK? Kovalchuk is on the PK for the devils, Giroux for Philly. We have Craig Adams. Get out there and kill a P.K. Crosby.

Shero has done a good job building a strong NA team, and if he drafts europeans I'm assuming most already play in the CHL somewhere. But this team feels so small. Martin was a failure. Didn't want to sign scuderi at 3.1 million because he was a 6th defenseman, whenever the guy was playing as shutdown number 1 pairing guy. LA Kings saw that, oops just won another cup beside doughty. Pretty sure Letang - Scuderi would be a nice start. Michalek is a great player, just because of the system you ship him out, a failing system. WATCHED SCUDERI SHUT DOWN OVECHKIN. SHUT DOWN. HOW IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR 3.1M FOR 4 YEARS SHERO? WHAT IS GILL MAKING RIGHT NOW? 2.2 M?

WE COULD HAVE GILL AND SCUDERI STILL FOR 5.3 MILLION BUT INSTEAD WE ARE PAYING PAMPER-SOFF MARTIN 5M. I'D RATHER HAVE RYAN WHITNEY BACK. AT LEAST WHITNEY SUCKER PUNCHED FRANZEN IN THE FACE AFTER FRANZEN HAD A CONCUSSION.

Trade Pouliot for Iglina, and you have Crosby a winger for the next 4 years. Flames wanted Pouliot anyways.

Bylsma needs to go, and its just not because we are choking leads. He can't change his system up. He got lucky with the Cup win. I mean really, if we dont win the cup in 2009 and lose in the 2nd round or something, he would've been fired by now. Get this guy out of here. Should've hired Hartley.


Cool post. And I really mean that. The hatred and intensity was really enjoyable! :thumb:
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:17 pm

All I see are some colors and a lot of caps (never read those, too much strain on the eye), plus some whining about losing Strait (duh) and wanting Whitney over Martin, which is ludicrous, to put it mildly. I'm also not a fan of the idea to trade what is probably our top prospect for a guy who's UFA this summer.
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Re: fire db

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:21 pm

columbia wrote:I don't get it, when it comes to trading prospects for pending UFAs.
They traded garbage for Hossa, which is very different from shipping off any of the young D.


With one minute to go in the deadline. And we traded our recent first round pick and another first rounder. That's why it's so difficult to trade prospects, such a high failure rate even from guys who are highly regarded.

I think the take at the deadline gets easier for teams desperate to drop a guy if they are out of the race but there are so many factors involved, will the pens if they are still struggling wait until the last minute or will they pull the trigger to guarantee a certain type of player.
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Re: fire db

Postby Nizzy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:23 pm

xpert defnse strahteegee diagrum:

Image
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Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:29 pm

The glorification of Gill and Scuderi is ridiculous.
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Re: fire db

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:45 pm

Gaucho wrote:The glorification of Gill and Scuderi is ridiculous.

:thumb: Both guys were limited and treated the puck on their stick like a hand grenade. Neither fit into the salary cap at the time when their contracts were up and they went after more money elsewhere. Move on please.
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Re: fire db

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:50 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The glorification of Gill and Scuderi is ridiculous.

:thumb: Both guys were limited and treated the puck on their stick like a hand grenade. Neither fit into the salary cap at the time when their contracts were up and they went after more money elsewhere. Move on please.


Well, I can't speak for everyone else. When I refer to them I'm not talking about those two specifically and know we couldn't have signed them at the time. I more refer to the idea of two guys similar to them as a bottom pair. Solid in your own zone, fairly affordable, good overall defense and so forth.

Since we won the cup we have deviated from worked at the time.
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Re: fire db

Postby Lesky on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:51 pm

Gaucho wrote:The glorification of Gill and Scuderi is ridiculous.


At least Scuderi has a "long stick" according to Errey and Steigy, thats more than Martin :fist:
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Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:01 pm

If Gill and Scuderi are overrated here, it's only by a little. Since they've left, they've shown that they are legit - especially in the playoffs

But it's not shero's fault they left. we had no money for them that year.
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