Fire DB

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: fire db

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:09 pm

Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
If you don't think that there are at least three or four guys who are better HC's than Bylsma who would jump at the chance to coach this team you're sadly mistaken.



You know this for a fact?


Whatever.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: fire db

Postby bhaw on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:09 pm

shmenguin wrote:They overachieved in the TB series. The lightning were a superior team at that point and rightfully won the series. The order in which the games were won isn't relevant.


Taking this out of the "fire db" context, this isn't right at all. There's a reason being down 3-1 has an extremely low success rate and why being down 3-0 is pretty much impossible to accomplish a comeback. If a team goes up 3-1 in a series, clearly they have the ability to win a fourth. I don't care who the coach is or who was or wasn't on the team at the time, losing a series where you are up 3-1 is a failure and rightfully deserves any and all criticism due to it. Excusing it because they were the better team is ridiculous. There are countless series where the better team doesn't win being down 3-1 or 3-2 or even after they've gone up 2-1 or 1-0 in it.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,818
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: fire db

Postby Gaucho on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:13 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
If you don't think that there are at least three or four guys who are better HC's than Bylsma who would jump at the chance to coach this team you're sadly mistaken.



You know this for a fact?


Whatever.


Is this the point where I facepalm and tell you to use your brains?
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 39,277
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: fire db

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:15 pm

Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
If you don't think that there are at least three or four guys who are better HC's than Bylsma who would jump at the chance to coach this team you're sadly mistaken.



You know this for a fact?


Whatever.


Is this the point where I facepalm and tell you to use your brains?


Dude, you're insufferable. What's wrong with you?
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: fire db

Postby bhaw on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:18 pm

Agreed with EPP. The whole "I trumped you b/c you can't possibly know this for a fact" is a lame argument to push. Hard to have a discussion about anything at that point. This whole thread is based on interpreting fact and making assumptions, as are a majority of the threads.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,818
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:23 pm

bhaw wrote:There's a reason being down 3-1 has an extremely low success rate and why being down 3-0 is pretty much impossible to accomplish a comeback.


yeah, it's because the team that's up 3-1 is usually the better team.

is there not enough evidence gathered from TB routing the caps and then taking the SC champs to 7 games to see that tampa started playing extremely well right at the point where we stopped winning games? it's kind of lazy to just assume that a 3-1 lead means a team should win the series. they'd probably shorten it to best of 5 if that was the case every time.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby bhaw on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:28 pm

shmenguin wrote:
bhaw wrote:There's a reason being down 3-1 has an extremely low success rate and why being down 3-0 is pretty much impossible to accomplish a comeback.


yeah, it's because the team that's up 3-1 is usually the better team.

is there not enough evidence gathered from TB routing the caps and then taking the SC champs to 7 games to see that tampa started playing extremely well right at the point where we stopped winning games? it's kind of lazy to just assume that a 3-1 lead means a team should win the series. they'd probably shorten it to best of 5 if that was the case every time.


It's a matter of opinion if you find losing that series acceptable or not. If you isolate it, you could find any reason it didn't work out. However, I doubt any team that was up 3-1 or 3-0 and lost looks at it and says "wow, that was totally uncontrollable and we should have lost that series."

But when you put it back into context and put it up with the year before and the year after, there is certainly a pattern there.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,818
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:32 pm

I think patterns go out the window when your team is totally different than the one that lost in the surrounding years.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby bhaw on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:37 pm

shmenguin wrote:I think patterns go out the window when your team is totally different than the one that lost in the surrounding years.


All I can say is that I 100% disagree that the Pens had no control over winning that series once they were up 3-1. I don't really care who wasn't on the team. In any sport, when you have an opponent almost beaten and you let them back in, that is as much on you as it is on them. To absolve coaching and players from that loss doesn't work for me.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,818
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: fire db

Postby Rylan on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:43 pm

Is DB this year's whipping boy? Interesting new take on whipping boys.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,861
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: fire db

Postby bhaw on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Rylan wrote:Is DB this year's whipping boy? Interesting new take on whipping boys.


You still have whipping boys. Just wait for Martin to eff up a breakout that leads to a goal.

I think it's just becoming apparent that DB may not have all the right answers. He has been around about how long the average NHL coach lasts. The team has struggled in the playoffs 3 straight years, and last year was a cluster of epic proportions (historical cluster, actually). I don't think it's unreasonable or unexpected for this to happen.

Oh, and you have 2 of the best players in the world on the power play along with a guy who was talked about with the Norris until he got hurt and a 40 goal scorer, yet your system continues to look like the coach of a cricket team made it up.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,818
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: fire db

Postby Rylan on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Didn't say it wasn't expected. Just that it was nice to not hate players for once and actually discuss merits of someone's job using concrete evidence rather than the abstract.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,861
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: fire db

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:07 pm

bhaw wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think patterns go out the window when your team is totally different than the one that lost in the surrounding years.


All I can say is that I 100% disagree that the Pens had no control over winning that series once they were up 3-1. I don't really care who wasn't on the team. In any sport, when you have an opponent almost beaten and you let them back in, that is as much on you as it is on them. To absolve coaching and players from that loss doesn't work for me.

I agree bhaw. I never liked the "they didn't have this guy cause so and so was hurt and they should of had him and things would of been different" you play with the cards that are dealt, thats the way it is.
SolidSnake
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,488
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:41 pm
Location: "Whatcha you be smokin' cuz? you guys aren't nothing but hoopty"

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:13 pm

SolidSnake wrote:
bhaw wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think patterns go out the window when your team is totally different than the one that lost in the surrounding years.


All I can say is that I 100% disagree that the Pens had no control over winning that series once they were up 3-1. I don't really care who wasn't on the team. In any sport, when you have an opponent almost beaten and you let them back in, that is as much on you as it is on them. To absolve coaching and players from that loss doesn't work for me.

I agree bhaw. I never liked the "they didn't have this guy cause so and so was hurt and they should of had him and things would of been different" you play with the cards that are dealt, thats the way it is.


To what end? If staal, fleury, Neal and Kunitz were also injured, you're saying there would still be no excuses?
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:18 pm

shmenguin wrote:
SolidSnake wrote:
bhaw wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think patterns go out the window when your team is totally different than the one that lost in the surrounding years.


All I can say is that I 100% disagree that the Pens had no control over winning that series once they were up 3-1. I don't really care who wasn't on the team. In any sport, when you have an opponent almost beaten and you let them back in, that is as much on you as it is on them. To absolve coaching and players from that loss doesn't work for me.

I agree bhaw. I never liked the "they didn't have this guy cause so and so was hurt and they should of had him and things would of been different" you play with the cards that are dealt, thats the way it is.


To what end? If staal, fleury, Neal and Kunitz were also injured, you're saying there would still be no excuses?

It is what it is, gotta play with what they are dealt, there is no magic extra salary cap for injuries in the playoffs.
SolidSnake
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,488
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:41 pm
Location: "Whatcha you be smokin' cuz? you guys aren't nothing but hoopty"

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:35 pm

That's fine for a pep talk or a mantra for the players during the series, but that attitude isn't going to do a GM any good when they assess their team.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby Rylan on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Its not like the Pens are built around Crosby and Malkin's creativity.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,861
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: fire db

Postby penmyst on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:19 pm

Regarding the TB series:

The set of players that blew a 3-1 lead; weren't they the same set of players that won 3 of the first 4 against TB? Isn't that being ignored if you want to blame not having Crosby/Malkin?
penmyst
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,337
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: fire db

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:20 pm

penmyst wrote:Regarding the TB series:

The set of players that blew a 3-1 lead; weren't they the same set of players that won 3 of the first 4 against TB? Isn't that being ignored if you want to blame not having Crosby/Malkin?


So players can't overachieve for 3 games?
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,659
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: fire db

Postby mikey287 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:23 pm

mikey287 wrote:Snapper said it well...I'd like to see some progress coming up, progress, I don't need a miracle, I don't need a sudden change of pace to realize that things are changing for the better...make some progress over the next few weeks and then we'll see where we're at...

I've been unhappy with the team also, but come on, what are we talking about here...? A team is trying to get an identity, trying to develop chemistry, trying to make systemic adjustments (I hope...) and you want to start trading pieces away from that? How would that help right now?

I'd like to see use the Flyers series as a launch pad in the other direction, start making progress away from that and then we'll talk...with no training camp, condensed scheduling (which also affects practice) and the whole bit, I'm willing to be fairly patient...I think a handful of weeks is fair for progress - not a finished product - but progress...


I've seen definite progress. Lots of kinks to work out. Over-committal, leaving half the ice un-manned, understanding roles in the defensive zone as a whole, but by and large, a lot of progress in the past few games. We can win like this. Hybrid defensive/forecheck system, utilizing the triangular formations of puck support systems on both sides of the puck, this is much better...

I wonder if this was always Bylsma's intention and it wasn't being explained properly or practiced correctly, or if this is an adjustment or re-adjustment of a previous failure. I'm an out-of-market fan, so I don't really know the answer to this, but do any of the Penguins beat writers know the game at all? Or are they just pencil pushers?
mikey287
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,541
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF

Re: fire db

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:34 pm

I think beat writers are just that: beat writers. Rossi doesn't know crap.

I think the only one who has some semblance of knowledge is Molinari, but I could be wrong.

Typically, if you at least know something about hockey, you aren't going to be a beat writer for some local newspaper.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,659
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:41 pm

penmyst wrote:Regarding the TB series:

The set of players that blew a 3-1 lead; weren't they the same set of players that won 3 of the first 4 against TB? Isn't that being ignored if you want to blame not having Crosby/Malkin?


Eh. Why not switch to best of 5 then? Or best of 3? Or shorten the games to 10 minutes.

The caps were up 2-0 against us in 09. Did they blow it or did the best team just need 7 games to reveal itself.

But you're right - there's plenty of stuff being ignored right now
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby penmyst on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:09 pm

shmenguin wrote:
penmyst wrote:Regarding the TB series:

The set of players that blew a 3-1 lead; weren't they the same set of players that won 3 of the first 4 against TB? Isn't that being ignored if you want to blame not having Crosby/Malkin?


Eh. Why not switch to best of 5 then? Or best of 3? Or shorten the games to 10 minutes.

The caps were up 2-0 against us in 09. Did they blow it or did the best team just need 7 games to reveal itself.

But you're right - there's plenty of stuff being ignored right now


That is missing the point.

If you are capable of winning 3 of 4, you are more than capable of winning 1 of 3 to close it out.

The POINT is that saying that team was no good and never stood a chance without Crosby/Malkin....... is kind of ignoring the fact that very team won the first 3 of 4. I think you can be quite certain that nobody in the position of being up 3-1 is saying "That's it guys. Pack it in. We are outgunned and don't even belong on the same ice as TB. Stick a fork in us. We're done."
penmyst
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,337
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: fire db

Postby shmenguin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:20 pm

I'm not really sure the point you're making. I'm also not sure that we disagree.

The penguins had a chance, like you say. And no one should have been throwing in the towel, like you say.

What I contest is two things:

1) saying that injuries are no excuse. This isn't fairy tale land. At a certain point, they become too much to handle.

2) that being up 3-1 in a series means you absolutely have to win or else it was a major collapse. Hockey is a delicate sport. You simply can't just will yourself to a victory. It's too competetive and is very dependent on circumstance
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,223
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: fire db

Postby penmyst on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:40 am

shmenguin wrote:1) saying that injuries are no excuse. This isn't fairy tale land. At a certain point, they become too much to handle.


Do injuries have an effect? Yes.

But that team was up 3-1. It demonstrated through the first 4 games that they *could* beat TB without Crosby/Malkin, as they did just that very thing.

If those Pens had found a way to win just 1 of the remaining 3, nobody would have been talking about missing Crosby/Malkin. That's just the way it is. When you LOSE--- injuries are an excuse. When you WIN--- injuries? what injuries?

shmenguin wrote:2) that being up 3-1 in a series means you absolutely have to win or else it was a major collapse. Hockey is a delicate sport. You simply can't just will yourself to a victory. It's too competetive and is very dependent on circumstance


It is a major collapse.

There is a reason it's so rarely occurs.
penmyst
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,337
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Idoit40fans, llipgh2, NashvilleCat, Pitt87, RisslingsMissingTeeth and 26 guests

e-mail